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Robin Ventura Named White Sox Manager

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 03:54 PM)
So the White Sox struggles the past 3 seasons are all on Robin. If they would have hired Dave Martinez, there probably would have been playoff appearances and capacity crowds?

 

 

It's their nightmare let them dream it. Blame is the name of the game

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QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 7, 2011 -> 12:05 AM)
I like the hire but Robin came across terrible on that conference call

 

Happy I found this, as I remember being shocked at how somber he was in the conference call. I was cautiously optimistic about the hire, but I also didn't think he would stick around as long as he has if things went bad.

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:56 AM)
White Sox struggles are first and foremost on the players and the team that put the roster together. In some cases, hands were tied and rebuilding was going on. I'd say Robin is the least of the perpetrators but he's also the easiest to get rid of. And I've consistently said, look at the roster he's been given, you are going to suck defensively no matter what. However, seeing Alexei and Eaton, who should still be avg. and above avg defenders, respectively, also stink, is a disturbing trend.

But as Robin said, they practice it hundreds of times. There is no doubt that was Eaton's ball. Alexei shouldn't give the impression he is camping under it because, like most teams it will make the OF pull up. They shouldn't, but they do. It's still Eaton's fault all the way.

 

People can blame Robin all they want. I just think that whichever other guy they want to have the job, if they were given the exact same circumstances, it's not like there would have been an extra 15-20 wins a year. IMO, firing Robin, and I don't think they will, isn't going to solve the problems. It will make some people happy, but they still won't go to games, and they will find someone else to blame when the same crap keeps happening. If Robin was fired today, and they continued to play like they have played, I am certain the fire Steverson threads would be popping up next.

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If firing Robin and hiring someone else makes these guys stop playing like trash then I would be completely shocked and admit that I was wrong, a manager really can make that big of a difference. But first, fire Hahn, the Harvard genius who put the group together. Fire Buddy Bell who's evaluation and development of talent has left the Sox bereft of any support whatsoever from the minor leagues to help this team. Fire Kenny Williams for his years of mediocrity.

 

The only reason I hated to see Robin hired is that I knew some day he would be fired. He's one of my favorite Sox players of all time and I hate to see this s***boat of a team drag down his standing.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 12:41 PM)
But as Robin said, they practice it hundreds of times. There is no doubt that was Eaton's ball. Alexei shouldn't give the impression he is camping under it because, like most teams it will make the OF pull up. They shouldn't, but they do. It's still Eaton's fault all the way.

 

People can blame Robin all they want. I just think that whichever other guy they want to have the job, if they were given the exact same circumstances, it's not like there would have been an extra 15-20 wins a year. IMO, firing Robin, and I don't think they will, isn't going to solve the problems. It will make some people happy, but they still won't go to games, and they will find someone else to blame when the same crap keeps happening. If Robin was fired today, and they continued to play like they have played, I am certain the fire Steverson threads would be popping up next.

You're right of course. The problem is the same **** keeps happening. Firing the manager alone isn't enough.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 11:41 AM)
But as Robin said, they practice it hundreds of times. There is no doubt that was Eaton's ball. Alexei shouldn't give the impression he is camping under it because, like most teams it will make the OF pull up. They shouldn't, but they do. It's still Eaton's fault all the way.

 

People can blame Robin all they want. I just think that whichever other guy they want to have the job, if they were given the exact same circumstances, it's not like there would have been an extra 15-20 wins a year. IMO, firing Robin, and I don't think they will, isn't going to solve the problems. It will make some people happy, but they still won't go to games, and they will find someone else to blame when the same crap keeps happening. If Robin was fired today, and they continued to play like they have played, I am certain the fire Steverson threads would be popping up next.

 

DA, you dont want to blame anyone except Soxtalk. Its never the players, managers, or coaches fault, just the people who are pissed off that this team looks and plays like s***

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 11:43 AM)
DA, you dont want to blame anyone except Soxtalk. Its never the players, managers, or coaches fault, just the people who are pissed off that this team looks and plays like s***

 

:lol:

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 11:43 AM)
DA, you dont want to blame anyone except Soxtalk. Its never the players, managers, or coaches fault, just the people who are pissed off that this team looks and plays like s***

?

 

I am blaming the players. Look at every manager's record that has been around awhile. Sometimes they come in first, sometimes they come in last. Do they just get really smart one year, and stupid the next? Baseball isn't like the other sports where you install an offense and defense and call plays. The manager/coach doesn't play as big of an in game role. In fact, it isn't even close. If we saw guys not trying, I would agree something there needed to be done. I am amazed the offense is this bad. I think even the guys who thought this team may suck are amazed the offense is this bad. The defense, we all knew wouldn't be good. The baserunning has been bad. They brought in Vince Coleman for that. Seemed like a solid move, but guys are worse. If, in my mind, I thought there was a 1% chance the reason the White Sox suck this year and the past 2 was Robin and the coaching staff, I would be right on board with everyone else who wants them all gone. The talent level was short the last 2 years. This year, the players, almost all of them, haven't played up to expectation. It's easy to blame that on one person, but it wouldn't be correct. Melky Cabrera isn't hitting. Adam Eaton isn't hitting, running bases or defending. Jeff Samardzija isn't pitching like a 9 figure pitcher. How can that be on one guy and not the guy actually playing?

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 12:53 PM)
?

 

I am blaming the players. Look at every manager's record that has been around awhile. Sometimes they come in first, sometimes they come in last. Do they just get really smart one year, and stupid the next? Baseball isn't like the other sports where you install an offense and defense and call plays. The manager/coach doesn't play as big of an in game role. In fact, it isn't even close. If we saw guys not trying, I would agree something there needed to be done. I am amazed the offense is this bad. I think even the guys who thought this team may suck are amazed the offense is this bad. The defense, we all knew wouldn't be good. The baserunning has been bad. They brought in Vince Coleman for that. Seemed like a solid move, but guys are worse. If, in my mind, I thought there was a 1% chance the reason the White Sox suck this year and the past 2 was Robin and the coaching staff, I would be right on board with everyone else who wants them all gone. The talent level was short the last 2 years. This year, the players, almost all of them, haven't played up to expectation. It's easy to blame that on one person, but it wouldn't be correct. Melky Cabrera isn't hitting. Adam Eaton isn't hitting, running bases or defending. Jeff Samardzija isn't pitching like a 9 figure pitcher. How can that be on one guy and not the guy actually playing?

So the people who made the decisions to bring those players in made terrible ones and you agree they need replaced. I continue to be ok with that. Hell, if Robin could convince a replacement GM to keep him, I probably would be ok with that.

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QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 11:05 AM)
It's their nightmare let them dream it. Blame is the name of the game

 

please

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 09:41 AM)
But as Robin said, they practice it hundreds of times. There is no doubt that was Eaton's ball. Alexei shouldn't give the impression he is camping under it because, like most teams it will make the OF pull up. They shouldn't, but they do. It's still Eaton's fault all the way.

 

People can blame Robin all they want. I just think that whichever other guy they want to have the job, if they were given the exact same circumstances, it's not like there would have been an extra 15-20 wins a year. IMO, firing Robin, and I don't think they will, isn't going to solve the problems. It will make some people happy, but they still won't go to games, and they will find someone else to blame when the same crap keeps happening. If Robin was fired today, and they continued to play like they have played, I am certain the fire Steverson threads would be popping up next.

Every team practices it. What are the consequences, what is the tone of those practices. I don't know, but it can make a difference. No one is saying Robin doesn't work (or at least I'm not) but maybe his style doesn't work with this team. He clearly isn't helping the situation and quite frankly this is 2+ years of being a horrible fundamental baseball team. Yes, that is on the players, but the manager also gets the fall for something like that. That is how baseball works. Am I saying it is all Robin's fault, absolutely not, but after 2+ years of being the worst fundamental team in baseball (with no progress being made), changes need to be made.

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It doesn't have to be on one guy. It's a system-wide failure.

The thing is, Robin Ventura isn't special. Even if you think he's competent, he's completely replaceable.

 

I mean, if they fired him, what are the chances it came back to bite them?

 

I'll tell you...zero.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 11:55 AM)
So the people who made the decisions to bring those players in made terrible ones and you agree they need replaced. I continue to be ok with that. Hell, if Robin could convince a replacement GM to keep him, I probably would be ok with that.

Sports isn't like a regular job. If you fired a GM for misses, you would be forced to give them 2 month contracts.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 09:53 AM)
?

 

I am blaming the players. Look at every manager's record that has been around awhile. Sometimes they come in first, sometimes they come in last. Do they just get really smart one year, and stupid the next? Baseball isn't like the other sports where you install an offense and defense and call plays. The manager/coach doesn't play as big of an in game role. In fact, it isn't even close. If we saw guys not trying, I would agree something there needed to be done. I am amazed the offense is this bad. I think even the guys who thought this team may suck are amazed the offense is this bad. The defense, we all knew wouldn't be good. The baserunning has been bad. They brought in Vince Coleman for that. Seemed like a solid move, but guys are worse. If, in my mind, I thought there was a 1% chance the reason the White Sox suck this year and the past 2 was Robin and the coaching staff, I would be right on board with everyone else who wants them all gone. The talent level was short the last 2 years. This year, the players, almost all of them, haven't played up to expectation. It's easy to blame that on one person, but it wouldn't be correct. Melky Cabrera isn't hitting. Adam Eaton isn't hitting, running bases or defending. Jeff Samardzija isn't pitching like a 9 figure pitcher. How can that be on one guy and not the guy actually playing?

All fair points, but as a manager you are hired to be fired.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:54 AM)
So the White Sox struggles the past 3 seasons are all on Robin. If they would have hired Dave Martinez, there probably would have been playoff appearances and capacity crowds?

 

Said no one but Dick Allen.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:01 PM)
Sports isn't like a regular job. If you fired a GM for misses, you would be forced to give them 2 month contracts.

But on pace for a .423 winning percentage over a 3 year period with 2 of those being high-salary years, and arguably the weakest organization top to bottom we've seen in decades, that's pretty darn good reasoning.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:01 AM)
Sports isn't like a regular job. If you fired a GM for misses, you would be forced to give them 2 month contracts.

A GM should get a window to build a franchise. If you went too short on him, the incentive and decisions made would never be in the best interest of the LT health of the franchise. I am not writing off Hahn. He has done good things and we are still better off today then we were 3 or 4 years ago. However, he has to show that he has learned from some of his mistakes, etc. Now hopefully Sox go on some crazy terror and we all forget this, but with the way they play fundamentals, that is nearly impossible at this point.

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QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 12:00 PM)
It doesn't have to be on one guy. It's a system-wide failure.

The thing is, Robin Ventura isn't special. Even if you think he's competent, he's completely replaceable.

 

I mean, if they fired him, what are the chances it came back to bite them?

 

I'll tell you...zero.

You would have easily said the same thing about Tony LaRussa in 1986. Yet he still gets mentioned. Hawk still gets crap for firing him. Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, when they managed bad teams they had a bad record. If firing the manager or the hitting coach or the video guy or whatever made the White Sox win more games, fine. If it is just to appease meathead fans who won't go to games anyways, and the losing will continue so they will just move on to their next target, it makes no sense.

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:04 PM)
A GM should get a window to build a franchise. If you went too short on him, the incentive and decisions made would never be in the best interest of the LT health of the franchise. I am not writing off Hahn. He has done good things and we are still better off today then we were 3 or 4 years ago. However, he has to show that he has learned from some of his mistakes, etc. Now hopefully Sox go on some crazy terror and we all forget this, but with the way they play fundamentals, that is nearly impossible at this point.

100% disagree.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 12:03 PM)
But on pace for a .423 winning percentage over a 3 year period with 2 of those being high-salary years, and arguably the weakest organization top to bottom we've seen in decades, that's pretty darn good reasoning.

Get off the high salaried 2013. Dunn was crap. Konerko was a shell of himself. Peavy and Rios were traded. Be fair. If anything, the surprising success of the 2012 team probably set some things back a season.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 12:04 PM)
You would have easily said the same thing about Tony LaRussa in 1986. Yet he still gets mentioned. Hawk still gets crap for firing him. Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, when they managed bad teams they had a bad record. If firing the manager or the hitting coach or the video guy or whatever made the White Sox win more games, fine. If it is just to appease meathead fans who won't go to games anyways, and the losing will continue so they will just move on to their next target, it makes no sense.

 

You need to start living in reality.

 

Ventura took the job as a favor because it was for the White Sox.

 

His last game managing for the Sox will be his last game as a manager, period. If he even interviews for a managerial position ever again, I would be surprised.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 12:04 PM)
You would have easily said the same thing about Tony LaRussa in 1986. Yet he still gets mentioned. Hawk still gets crap for firing him. Bobby Cox, Joe Torre, when they managed bad teams they had a bad record. If firing the manager or the hitting coach or the video guy or whatever made the White Sox win more games, fine. If it is just to appease meathead fans who won't go to games anyways, and the losing will continue so they will just move on to their next target, it makes no sense.

 

again, blaming the "meathead" fans. If it isnt trolling with your "where are the fire steverson posts", or trolling with anything John Danks, are now trolling with "hey hawk fired Tony larussa same thing Amirite", you continue to blame the fans.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:05 AM)
100% disagree.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2011.shtml

 

Not seeing it. High payroll, below .500 team, lousy farm system. Sale was not yet an established ace (pitching out of the pen and not a lot of people had faith in him being an elite starter or a starter for that matter). Danks was already lousy and overpaid, etc. Abreu didn't exist.

 

We had more bad contracts and no stars (including a few more years of Dunn on the hook). Now all we have is Melky (2 more years) and Danks (1 more year) of albatross vs. Dunn / Danks both for a long time and that team had no young talent to off-set it. We didn't have Sale / Q / Rodon / Abreu (in the off-season I'd have said Eaton but now we'll see if last year was a fluke) who are values. This team is so much closer.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:07 PM)
Get off the high salaried 2013. Dunn was crap. Konerko was a shell of himself. Peavy and Rios were traded. Be fair. If anything, the surprising success of the 2012 team probably set some things back a season.

"Robin Ventura and Rick Hahn cannot be blamed for decisions made by Robin Ventura and Rick Hahn."

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:07 AM)
Get off the high salaried 2013. Dunn was crap. Konerko was a shell of himself. Peavy and Rios were traded. Be fair. If anything, the surprising success of the 2012 team probably set some things back a season.

2012 was why Robin got a pass. I was stunned at how that team was able to contend (and generally played strong fundamental ball). 2013 was way too high of expectations and team played about how it should have and I'd say last year was more of the same. This year, we should not be this bad. This team isn't a playoff team with any manager but it might be a bit better and end of the day, at some point, you have to send messages and we aren't going to cut every player so sometimes the manager is the route you have to take.

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