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Sergio Santos traded to Toronto

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QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 01:53 PM)
So is this the major league ready talent KW was talking about? Sure doesn't look that way on the surface

 

So, Sox scouting must have absolutely coveted this guy to make this trade; that's what excites me. I have faith in our pitching scouting.

 

Maybe we are flipping him for a bigger piece?

 

If I recall correctly, Paddy signed Molina and was really pushing Kenny about how good he is.

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GordonEdes

Red sox disappointed that Santos wasn't shopped to them b4 White Sox sent him to Tor.

Way to go Kenny-that's how you trade. Only talk to one team and pull the trigger. Kenny your time is way up. We need someone with a change of philosophy on trading. For the past 2 years, the Sox haven't come out ahead on any of Kenny's decisions: Rios waiver, Dunn, Teahen trade/contract, Peavy, Rushing Beckham, Swisher both trades, Ohman-2 year deal, and list goes on. I know it's not going to happen, but Jerry FIRE KENNY WILLIAMS.

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I honestly think the plan is in motion for KW to be promoted to a President position in 2-3 years with Hahn taking over as GM thereafter. Not saying I agree with it, but maybe Reinsdorf is trying to protect Hahn by forcing KW to be the guy making all these unpopular moves. Allow the organization a couple years to recover before handing the official reigns over to Hahn. Obviously he'll be heavily in all the decision-making in the meantime, but he won't have to be the guy who "traded everyone away and allowed Buerhle to leave".

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 12:25 AM)
I honestly think the plan is in motion for KW to be promoted to a President position in 2-3 years with Hahn taking over as GM thereafter. Not saying I agree with it, but maybe Reinsdorf is trying to protect Hahn by forcing KW to be the guy making all these unpopular moves. Allow the organization a couple years to recover before handing the official reigns over to Hahn. Obviously he'll be heavily in all the decision-making in the meantime, but he won't have to be the guy who "traded everyone away and allowed Buerhle to leave".

 

It's insane that KW is being allowed to clean up the mess he created.

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QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 06:39 PM)
It's insane that KW is being allowed to clean up the mess he created.

 

 

it is fathom, this is JR loyalty getting in the way. When you meet everyday with the same people, you tend to start agreeing with them,never looking around. I was hoping that Larussa would somehow be part of the sox org, to get some different thinking around this team and ownership. It didnt happen. this is a huge mistake. Its like letting Bob Pulford continue to run the Blackhawks after he destroyed that team. JR needs an outsider that reports only to him.

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Hopefully this guy isn't Dexter Carter II. 22 innings above A ball, is still fairly raw IMO. KW doesn't seem to know much about him, he didn't even know what he was up to at this time. I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

 

If you are going to totally rebuild, get rid of KW now.

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QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 06:39 PM)
It's insane that KW is being allowed to clean up the mess he created.

Especially when you have a well regarded GM prospect ready to step-in. There's got to be more than meets the eye. For f***'s sake, even KW acknowledged how s***ty job he's done by offering to step down. I just can't believe Reinsdorf would really give KW another 4-5 years, because that's how long it will take to truly evaluate how well he's handled the rebuilding process.

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QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 06:39 PM)
It's insane that KW is being allowed to clean up the mess he created.

All I can say is that one would hope Hahn has been a driver of some of these decisions as well.

 

So we should promote Hahn?

 

Some of you guys are just complaining to complain. The players have not lived up to their end of the bargain by a long shot, remember that too.

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QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 02:21 PM)
I am personally critiquing the trade and not the talent level of the player. To that end, I believe value was left on the vine.

 

This said, I have reservations about Kenny's staff to properly evaluate/scout talent. We have one of the worst minor league systems in the majors and Kenny has recently traded off middle to top of the rotation talent (Hudson and Gio) for which we now have nothing to show. The Edwin Jackson trade was utterly mind boggling, because of who the agent was. Kenny knew Jackson was a short term solution and he really wasn't that much of an upgrade (if any) over Hudson. And OH BY THE WAY, take a prospect WITH HUDSON as well. What kind of sense was that trade? none!!!

 

The Gio trade, which included another elite prospect + going for a mediocre outfielder is also something a 'good front office' does not do.

 

The people responsible for the current sorry state of the White Sox are the ones we are asking to rebuild this thing!!!! I just have my doubts. I really am very cynical right now, as much as I've been in a long time about this franchise, but as White Sox fans I guess we're used to that on some level.

 

We buried the Teahen debacle and freed up payroll (possibly to be used on Buehrle)

 

We have a pitcher that at least has the ability to be a 3-4-5 starter in our rotation for the next five years. So I wouldn't call that nothing.

 

Can't argue about Gio Gonzalez, although I'd still like to see him put up those same numbers pitching half of the time at USCF.

 

 

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QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 06:56 PM)
All I can say is that one would hope Hahn has been a driver of some of these decisions as well.

 

So we should promote Hahn?

 

Some of you guys are just complaining to complain. The players have not lived up to their end of the bargain by a long shot, remember that too.

The guy who acquired these players and created this mess shouldn't be the guy responsible for fixing it. Its apparent there is something missing. His winter ball comments about Molina are disconcerning. He thinks he's playing winter ball now, but hie's not. Then the Sox have Reifert spin something. So if this is KW's trade, he's not up to speed on the player. If its someone else's trade, how about the Sox living up to it.

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QUOTE (PolishPrince34 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 04:03 PM)
GordonEdes

Red sox disappointed that Santos wasn't shopped to them b4 White Sox sent him to Tor.

Way to go Kenny-that's how you trade. Only talk to one team and pull the trigger. Kenny your time is way up. We need someone with a change of philosophy on trading. For the past 2 years, the Sox haven't come out ahead on any of Kenny's decisions: Rios waiver, Dunn, Teahen trade/contract, Peavy, Rushing Beckham, Swisher both trades, Ohman-2 year deal, and list goes on. I know it's not going to happen, but Jerry FIRE KENNY WILLIAMS.

 

Santos

Viciedo (the jury's still out)

Addison Reed

picking up DeAza for nothing

Phil Humber

 

The Ohman 2 year deal isn't horrible...in the overall list of worst decisions of MLB GM's, it's just "meh."

 

I'll agree that if Rios/Dunn/Peavy don't perform at all this year and we have to eat all of their contracts (without Rios or Dunn just retiring or giving up), then we're in huge trouble. We all know that.

 

 

 

 

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QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 06:56 PM)
All I can say is that one would hope Hahn has been a driver of some of these decisions as well.

 

So we should promote Hahn?

 

Some of you guys are just complaining to complain. The players have not lived up to their end of the bargain by a long shot, remember that too.

 

At some point you just have to look at the overall results...

 

2 playoff appearances in 11 years in this division, in this market, is horrible.

 

And considering the drama of the last few years with his manager, and no farm system to speak of, he should have been fired too.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 07:06 PM)
The guy who acquired these players and created this mess shouldn't be the guy responsible for fixing it. Its apparent there is something missing. His winter ball comments about Molina are disconcerning. He thinks he's playing winter ball now, but hie's not. Then the Sox have Reifert spin something. So if this is KW's trade, he's not up to speed on the player. If its someone else's trade, how about the Sox living up to it.

 

 

He signed Iguchi without even seeing him in person.

 

Obviously, Paddy's very familiar with Molina and what he projects him to be in the future.

 

Otherwise, we're left with a conspiracy theory that Paddy's secretly sandbagging the White Sox (like the Hoyer/Epstein stuff the last couple of years) to the benefit of his former boss, AA.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 07:10 PM)
Santos

Viciedo (the jury's still out)

Addison Reed

picking up DeAza for nothing

Phil Humber

 

The Ohman 2 year deal isn't horrible...in the overall list of worst decisions of MLB GM's, it's just "meh."

 

I'll agree that if Rios/Dunn/Peavy don't perform at all this year and we have to eat all of their contracts (without Rios or Dunn just retiring or giving up), then we're in huge trouble. We all know that.

That list of players isn't exactly the heart of a WS contender. Obviously you need complimentary players. For the Sox to develop the core players, that's going to require something different than what's been going on since KW sat in his "chair". He's picked some up, but he hasn't developed many.

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QUOTE (PolishPrince34 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 08:05 PM)
I said the last 2 years- Vicedo was signed almost 4 years ago. Santos was picked up 3 years ago. I think Addison Reed is going to be a stud, but I again have problems with Kenny and are scouts spending high draft picks on relievers. I believe Addison Reed had a good chance to develop into a starter. He has 3 average to above average pitches. You look at the past 2 drafts we have been spending high draft picks on relievers. We have absolutely no starting pitching prospects that will be legit except for Petricka whose in Low A, but still has huge question marks. They should of tried developing Reed as a SP.

 

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QUOTE (PolishPrince34 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 04:03 PM)
GordonEdes

Red sox disappointed that Santos wasn't shopped to them b4 White Sox sent him to Tor.

Way to go Kenny-that's how you trade. Only talk to one team and pull the trigger. Kenny your time is way up. We need someone with a change of philosophy on trading. For the past 2 years, the Sox haven't come out ahead on any of Kenny's decisions: Rios waiver, Dunn, Teahen trade/contract, Peavy, Rushing Beckham, Swisher both trades, Ohman-2 year deal, and list goes on. I know it's not going to happen, but Jerry FIRE KENNY WILLIAMS.

 

Really dissappointed we couldn't get Jed Lowrie, Josh Reddick or Lars Anderson, or any other overblown Red Sox prospect.

 

The Santos trade was great. No, we didn't fleece anyone, but both teams got value. It's a good trade on both sides.

 

 

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QUOTE (pktmotion @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 09:48 PM)
Really dissappointed we couldn't get Jed Lowrie, Josh Reddick or Lars Anderson, or any other overblown Red Sox prospect.

 

The Santos trade was great. No, we didn't fleece anyone, but both teams got value. It's a good trade on both sides.

The problem with this trade Kenny Williams seemed to focus on one team to trade with and that's Toronto. That's not being a smart GM. Santos was a hot commodity due to lack of milelage on throwing arm, ability, and friendly contract. Many teams have come out and said they wished they knew Kenny was making Santos available . Also, on the Boston front their are a lot better prospects than Anderson and Reddick. Lowrie has been with major league roster the past 2-3 years and isn't even considered a prospect anymore at the Age of 27. Kalish, Middleton, Wilson could of have been great additions to the farm system that are almost major league ready. Kenny Williams should of received more than one prospect in this deal. We should of received another prospect with a high ceiling.

Edited by PolishPrince34

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QUOTE (PolishPrince34 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 08:05 PM)
I said the last 2 years- Vicedo was signed almost 4 years ago. Santos was picked up 3 years ago. I think Addison Reed is going to be a stud, but I again have problems with Kenny and are scouts spending high draft picks on relievers. I believe Addison Reed had a good chance to develop into a starter. He has 3 average to above average pitches. You look at the past 2 drafts we have been spending high draft picks on relievers. We have absolutely no starting pitching prospects that will be legit except for Petricka whose in Low A, but still has huge question marks. They should of tried developing Reed as a SP.

 

Except Santos was a minor league SS free agent when we picked him up, not a draft pick.

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I find it interesting that Molina is a converted position player like Santos

Edited by elrockinMT

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 7, 2011 -> 07:10 PM)
Santos

Viciedo (the jury's still out)

Addison Reed

picking up DeAza for nothing

Phil Humber

 

The Ohman 2 year deal isn't horrible...in the overall list of worst decisions of MLB GM's, it's just "meh."

 

I'll agree that if Rios/Dunn/Peavy don't perform at all this year and we have to eat all of their contracts (without Rios or Dunn just retiring or giving up), then we're in huge trouble. We all know that.

 

the jury is certainly still out on addison reed

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QUOTE (PolishPrince34 @ Dec 8, 2011 -> 05:52 AM)
The problem with this trade Kenny Williams seemed to focus on one team to trade with and that's Toronto. That's not being a smart GM. Santos was a hot commodity due to lack of milelage on throwing arm, ability, and friendly contract. Many teams have come out and said they wished they knew Kenny was making Santos available . Also, on the Boston front their are a lot better prospects than Anderson and Reddick. Lowrie has been with major league roster the past 2-3 years and isn't even considered a prospect anymore at the Age of 27. Kalish, Middleton, Wilson could of have been great additions to the farm system that are almost major league ready. Kenny Williams should of received more than one prospect in this deal. We should of received another prospect with a high ceiling.

 

Well, it seems like a smart GM would actually scout the specific prospects he is targeting, they're not all fungible. The Sox must have really liked the guy they got, which is why they focused on Toronto. Time will tell if they blew it. I would have expected more than one guy in exchange for a good, cheap closer like Santos, but for all I know, this guy could be the next Danks, Floyd, etc., or better.

Edited by bighurt574

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The problem with this trade Kenny Williams seemed to focus on one team to trade with and that's Toronto.

 

No other team was in a position to trade Nestor Molina to the Sox.

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I'm just curious what everyone is gonna say about this trade if this guy can't hack it as a starter and ends up in about 3 years merely a solid set-up guy ?

 

This is a very risky trade for the Sox getting only 1 prospect that wasn't even on the map until last season and has barely pitched above A ball. The reviews on him are mixed. Kenny gave up a sure thing in a young cheap successful big league closer for that.

 

This team is not in a position to take gambles like that and not shop around to all teams for the best package of prospects. They are in a huge whole with the weakest minor league talent in baseball. He went about this in a very unprofessional way - which appears to be his habit.

 

Molina might end up being a solid starting pitcher for a long time but if he doesn't than KW f***ed up again.

Edited by WHITESOXRANDY

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QUOTE (WHITESOXRANDY @ Dec 9, 2011 -> 05:09 PM)
I'm just curious what everyone is gonna say about this trade if this guy can't hack it as a starter and ends up in about 3 years merely a solid set-up guy ?

 

If that's the case I think he'll be at least as valuable as Santos at that point. Probably more.

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