You be the judge

[iamshack]

How did the coaches "confirm" it? I'd be arguing that the coaches telling her wasn't "outing" her any more than whatever other evidence led to the mother's suspicions before all of this happened. The kid could have easily refuted it. "Mom, they're lying, they just don't like me. Hell, they kicked me off the team!"

 

 

Again, I think this was inappropriate. Not arguing that.

There is an argument to be made, but that doesn't mean it is worth a s***.

 

You don't think a school authority figure having a discussion in regards to her daughter's sexuality would imply a bit of truth that was absent in the other sources of her suspicions?

 

I mean GMAB, it's one thing to suspect or whatever...but to have a school employee approach you and disclose this to you? You're really expecting me to believe this doesn't serve as some form of confirmation?

Edited February 15, 2012 by iamshack

[StrangeSox]

How did the coaches "confirm" it? I'd be arguing that the coaches telling her wasn't "outing" her any more than whatever other evidence led to the mother's suspicions before all of this happened. The kid could have easily refuted it. "Mom, they're lying, they just don't like me. Hell, they kicked me off the team!"

 

 

Again, I think this was inappropriate. Not arguing that.

 

They disclosed that she was in a homosexual relationship. I'm not sure how much more explicitly you can confirm that.

 

Someone could always deny disclosed information and lie about its veracity, but that doesn't mean their privacy wasn't violated. "she could have lied to her mom" isn't a winning defense.

[iamshack]

to the parents they are calling to ask if their kids can take medications.

So your argument is that since schools make it a policy to alert parents before their children can take medication that alerting them of their children's sexual orientation is fair game?

[StrangeSox]

to the parents they are calling to ask if their kids can take medications.

 

I'd argue that's a violation of privacy as well since minors can legally purchase over-the-counter and prescription medication without parental knowledge. FWIW there's a medical concern with administering aspirin to children under the age of 19 when they have fevers.

 

A law review article making the case

[StrangeSox]

Also FYI parental consent for administration of medication at schools is not universal:

 

http://www.healthinschools.org/Health-in-S...in-Schools.aspx

[Jenksismyhero]

I just don't see how you can be "outed" about something you already expect/assume/have suspicions about. Suspicions, btw, that were so strong that she asked about it on more than one occasion.

 

There are degrees of wrongness which help decide a case. If this were a case where absolutely no one knew she was gay and no one had suspicions of it, it would be different, especially since we're talking about invasion of privacy and not a black/white line cause of action.

[southsider2k5]

So your argument is that since schools make it a policy to alert parents before their children can take medication that alerting them of their children's sexual orientation is fair game?

 

I'm not making a value judgement. I'm talking about the legal aspects here.

[StrangeSox]

I just don't see how you can be "outed" about something you already expect/assume/have suspicions about. Suspicions, btw, that were so strong that she asked about it on more than one occasion.

 

She thought her daughter might be gay and asked her about it. Her daughter denied it. Her daughter's coaches then told her that their daughter admitted to dating an 18 year old girl.

 

That seems like a crystal-clear violation of privacy to me. Absent the coaches' actions, the daughter's sexuality would still be a secret from her mother (if that's what she desired).

 

There are degrees of wrongness which help decide a case. If this were a case where absolutely no one knew she was gay and no one had suspicions of it, it would be different, especially since we're talking about invasion of privacy and not a black/white line cause of action.

 

Right, and so far there wasn't convincing evidence that she was openly gay to dismiss the suit, but it'll be left up to the trier of the facts.

 

[StrangeSox]

I'm not making a value judgement. I'm talking about the legal aspects here.

 

I'm not sure how the courts resolve that conflict (or if they can), but minors still have constitutional rights at school, and those rights include a right to sexual orientation privacy.

[southsider2k5]

She thought her daughter might be gay and asked her about it. Her daughter denied it. Her daughter's coaches then told her that their daughter admitted to dating an 18 year old girl.

 

That seems like a crystal-clear violation of privacy to me. Absent the coaches' actions, the daughter's sexuality would still be a secret from her mother (if that's what she desired).

 

 

 

Right, and so far there wasn't convincing evidence that she was openly gay to dismiss the suit, but it'll be left up to the trier of the facts.

 

It would be interesting to find if the school would call home if they found out that a 16 year old girl was having sex with her boyfriend.

[Jenksismyhero]

She thought her daughter might be gay and asked her about it. Her daughter denied it. Her daughter's coaches then told her that their daughter admitted to dating an 18 year old girl.

 

That seems like a crystal-clear violation of privacy to me. Absent the coaches' actions, the daughter's sexuality would still be a secret from her mother (if that's what she desired).

 

 

 

Right, and so far there wasn't convincing evidence that she was openly gay to dismiss the suit, but it'll be left up to the trier of the facts.

 

Her denial of that was probably enough to defeat the motion and get it to a jury.

[iamshack]

I just don't see how you can be "outed" about something you already expect/assume/have suspicions about. Suspicions, btw, that were so strong that she asked about it on more than one occasion.

 

There are degrees of wrongness which help decide a case. If this were a case where absolutely no one knew she was gay and no one had suspicions of it, it would be different, especially since we're talking about invasion of privacy and not a black/white line cause of action.

The mother did not know her daughter was a homosexual.

 

Is it fair to assume she did not know because her daughter did not wish her to know?

 

The coach threatened to disclose this information to the mother. If the coach is threatening to disclose some information to the student's mother, that implies that the coach knew the mother was not aware of the student's homosexuality.

 

The coach then informed the mother that the student was a homosexual.

 

[StrangeSox]

It would be interesting to find if the school would call home if they found out that a 16 year old girl was having sex with her boyfriend.

 

Plantiffs filed evidence indicating that they've never done so, leading the judge to agree that the school's policy claims were post hoc attempts to justify their actions.

[StrangeSox]

Her denial of that was probably enough to defeat the motion and get it to a jury.

 

Well and her mother's affidavit claiming she didn't actually know until the coaches told her.

 

[iamshack]

I'm not making a value judgement. I'm talking about the legal aspects here.

The medications policy is tough because it involves the possibility of real imminent harm.

 

The sexual orientation policy does not.

[Soxbadger]

Ultimately the issue will be damages. If they are just nominal its a waste of everyone's time.

 

If Im the Defendant, Im arguing that there are no damages, that there is nothing wrong with being a lesbian, so outing her is as irrelevant as saying that their daughter came to school with purple hair.

 

The rest just seems like commonplace school nonsense. Teachers, etc try and use leverage to get information from students.

[iamshack]

Ultimately the issue will be damages. If they are just nominal its a waste of everyone's time.

 

If Im the Defendant, Im arguing that there are no damages, that there is nothing wrong with being a lesbian, so outing her is as irrelevant as saying that their daughter came to school with purple hair.

 

The rest just seems like commonplace school nonsense. Teachers, etc try and use leverage to get information from students.

Since when has this been a relevant factor in the court system?

[Soxbadger]

Its not, but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be a relevant consideration when asking if this lawsuit should have been filed in the first place. I get that if they told her mother and the mother kills herself, or does something crazy, that you want to be put back whole. But from what I can tell, nothing like that happened, it doesnt even appear the mother fainted or went into shock.

 

You cant change bigotry through lawsuits, I think a more appropriate avenue would have been a formal complaint to the school asking for the teachers to be reprimanded.

[iamshack]

Its not, but that doesnt mean it shouldnt be a relevant consideration when asking if this lawsuit should have been filed in the first place. I get that if they told her mother and the mother kills herself, or does something crazy, that you want to be put back whole. But from what I can tell, nothing like that happened, it doesnt even appear the mother fainted or went into shock.

 

You cant change bigotry through lawsuits, I think a more appropriate avenue would have been a formal complaint to the school asking for the teachers to be reprimanded.

Well, the claim of damages is psychological injury...you would know more than I as how well those claims have to be laid out for the judge to award anything significant.

 

Obviously the other value here would be for precedent's sake, so that schools understand they cannot act in this manner BEFORE someone does it again and some mother or kid does go and kill himself/herself.

[vandy125]

Well and her mother's affidavit claiming she didn't actually know until the coaches told her.

 

Of course the mother claimed that, it makes it easier to sue and make this whole thing a big deal. We don't know any of the facts here, but the mother's claim that is used to make her own case needs to have more detail behind it.

[Soxbadger]

Shack,

 

I guess the problem with the precedent is that we are de facto saying that there is something wrong with being gay. I doubt there would be any concern about a school calling to say that a boy and girl were having a relationship, I doubt that a school counselor gets sued if they say it in a meeting with the family. If the mother had some sort of negative reaction, that is on her.

 

And therein lies the problem. Do we create rules that carve out special protections, which may be good intentioned but continue to create the idea that there is something different about gay people? Or do we strive to create rules/laws that treat them as equals, but may result in instances where people are emotionally/psychologically hurt?

 

I dont know, I personally dont think teachers/administrators should treat kids that way, regardless of whether they are gay, straight, black, white, etc.

[iamshack]

Shack,

 

I guess the problem with the precedent is that we are de facto saying that there is something wrong with being gay. I doubt there would be any concern about a school calling to say that a boy and girl were having a relationship, I doubt that a school counselor gets sued if they say it in a meeting with the family. If the mother had some sort of negative reaction, that is on her.

 

And therein lies the problem. Do we create rules that carve out special protections, which may be good intentioned but continue to create the idea that there is something different about gay people? Or do we strive to create rules/laws that treat them as equals, but may result in instances where people are emotionally/psychologically hurt?

 

I dont know, I personally dont think teachers/administrators should treat kids that way, regardless of whether they are gay, straight, black, white, etc.

Come on Badger, you know better than this. It doesn't "say" there is anything "wrong" with being gay. It only recognizes there is a social and measurable stigma for being a homosexual in our society.

 

I am sure there are studies one could reference which point to these measurables, which include employment rate, salary rates, ability to adopt children, ability to find housing, etc.

[Texsox]

If you have knowledge of an adult having sex with a minor child. Seems like a police matter. Let them investigate and decide. Now do you also tell her parents that you notified the police?

[Soxbadger]

It suggests there is something wrong with being gay. The idea would be that being gay is so secretive/personal that merely revealing someone's sexual identity is an actionable offense. If it truly is, than revealing anyones sexual identity should be actionable. Equality is equal, in all of its terribleness.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Soxbadger

[southsider2k5]

It suggests there is something wrong with being gay. The idea would be that being gay is so secretive/personal that merely revealing someone's sexual identity is an actionable offense. If it truly is, than revealing anyones sexual identity should be actionable. Equality is equal, in all of its terribleness.

 

Separate but equal?