Trayvon Martin

[CrimsonWeltall]

I think that's really what we're debating over here--does it continue to be self-defense if you prolong the incident by chasing them? How long is it justifiable to pursue them?

 

If the homeowner was still on his own property, I think he's justified.

[Chisoxfn]

That wasn't the point...odds are they'd never come back, but that isn't the psyche I'm tapping here...that family will no longer feel safe with that person out there. I know I wouldn't. It's the peace of mind that my home no longer has (not that it ever truly had it), but the perception of that safety is now shattered.

 

So now I have a house that I paid 200+K for, that I now need to sell in a s*** market because the peace of mind that home had is gone...is this rational? No...but it's how I'd personally feel. I'd feel as if I could no longer leave my house without my family. Unfortunately I work, and I have too. And for what...and by who? For a person that even if they get caught will be back on the street in a month? And in reality, odds are they'll be back out on the street a few days later...

 

This person did more harm than simply breaking into my home and leaving...there are repercussions, not just for that person (which in Chicago means basically no repercussions at all), but for my family.

 

Edit: So f*** that douche right in his ass.

If someone came and robbed me at gun point or tried to and then fled (and weren't caught), I don't think I'd ever feel safe in that house again. I'd want to be somewhere else cause I'd be too damn worried that person was going to come back and get me back (since he couldn't successfully execute). The person shouldn't have pulled the gun. My stance is totally different if the robber broke into the house (no weapon / firearm), the homeowner pulled a gun, the burglar took off, and the homeowner then chased the person out of the house and shot him when the person was 2 blocks away. In that story, while robbing is awful, the person shouldn't have been gunned down as their life wasn't in jeapordy.

 

When the deadly weapon was pulled, I have a harder time. Does the person running...are they just running to duck for cover and then try and go back or are they running and going to get reinforcements to come get that bastard? I don't know and as I'm sprinting after, I don't know that I can differentiate.

 

Again though, I'd have never done this even if I had a gun. The facts don't add up of how and why this homeowner pulled a gun when guns were already pulled on him. Seems like he had a suicide mission and was some form of action junky wanting to do this. I think in a normal situation, normal gun owner wouldn't have pulled, but if they do, they pull and shoot until person exists...once they exit and you see them high tail off, you immediately call police. And as I said, if police can't find person, I move, and to be frank, in the case of an armed robbery attempt, I might move anyway cause I think psychologically I'd have trouble sleeping in that house.

[cabiness42]

Ok, but in this case, the guy did chase them out of the house and into the yard and continued firing at them as they fled. The man he shot was two houses away.

 

Still in the house? I'm going to be less forgiving than you guys depending on what, exactly, the actions were (think of this case and this case), but once they've fled and are still running away from your property? It's no longer self defense.

 

I agree that if a person is outside of your house and running away, it's no longer OK to shoot. Someone in the house is fair game though. You shouldn't have to take time to evaluate a threat level.

[EvilMonkey]

neither link says that he chased them two houses away and killed him. They say he chased them into the yard and shot them. From what the two stories say, the guy who got shot could have ran the two houses away before he died.

[caulfield12]

http://news.yahoo.com/france-3-people-woun...-184556825.html

 

Here's a situation where the Moroccan guy wielding the gun and knife was presumably caught/subdued by two "gunless" Americans on a high speed train in Europe.

[StrangeSox]

neither link says that he chased them two houses away and killed him. They say he chased them into the yard and shot them. From what the two stories say, the guy who got shot could have ran the two houses away before he died.

He was shot in the head. I don't know how far you're going to run with a fatal shot to your head.

 

As far as Ohio law goes, it doesn't seem to matter if he was shot in the yard or not.

[DrunkBomber]

You dont know what an intruder in your houses intentions are or what theyre capable of. Theres no real answer for exactly how far away the guy would have to be for it to be ok to shoot him because every situation is different. Even little things like the layout of the house and size of the yard etc play big factors in any situation like this.

 

Obviously robbing a house doesnt warrant a life sentence in prison or the death penalty, but if a criminal puts himself in a position where someone else feels their life or the lives of their family are in jeopardy and gets killed in the process its nobodies fault but his own.

 

 

[iamshack]

Interesting debate.

 

Put me in the camp that says it is self-defense if the homeowner believes he was in imminent danger. The very word imminent suggests that someone fleeing is no longer posing danger. Obviously, this is a question of fact, and if the fleeing criminal is shooting at you while fleeing, that could constitute imminent danger.

 

As for continuing to fear one's life or safety after the criminal has fled, this is a reasonable consideration, but the lawful actions should not include "hunting the criminal down." SS makes some valid points here; it is a slippery slope once we start allowing that sort of retribution to qualify as "self-defense."

 

Other lawful actions would include purchasing a security system, purchasing a guard dog, moving, etc. There is a reason homeowners pay a premium to live in "safe" neighborhoods. While access to money should not determine the ability of one to live in a safe environment, it is a reality of urban life.

 

For me personally, I have always been opposed to owning a gun. Now that I have a young child, I must admit the thought of purchasing a gun for protection has indeed entered my mind. However, my thought process is that I would only utilize that gun if given no other alternative. Otherwise, that is what my Great Dane's are for

[Y2HH]

I'm not saying that the fear and sense of violation wouldn't be real and perfectly justifiable. I'm asking for how long that's a justification for killing the perpetrator. Still in your house? Yeah, 99/100 justified. They've run out the door and you're firing at them from inside the house? Definitely more of a gray area for me, but probably justifiable under a "heat of the moment"/panic/adrenaline explanation. Leaving the safety of your home and chasing them into your yard? I think that'd be pretty hard to justify as "self-defense" since you're the one who decided to prolong the conflict and pursue them.

 

Now what if it turns out that not only the perpetrators were a couple of houses down, but that the shooter wasn't even on his own property anymore? How long are you justified in chasing after them? If you're trying to argue immediate danger/self-defense, that runs out pretty quickly as you get farther and farther away from your own door. But if you're trying to use "I'd never feel safe in my own home so long as this person lived," doesn't that continue indefinitely?

 

I guess my issue is lack of faith in the system, because Chicago is particular has shown it can't be trusted. Violent, illegal gun toting criminals are set free or jailed for minimal amounts of time while the politicians scream about gun laws. So, in knowing that, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume if the armed burglar lives -- even if caught -- they'll be back on the street in short order, if not to return and do it to me again, to pick another random victim that may not be so lucky.

 

I've repeated this on many occasions, but if they want to solve the gun issue in Chicago all they have to do is pass mandatory minimum sentencing (7+ years without parole) if caught with an illegal gun...and our infamous gun issue would resolve itself rather quickly. But as it is, they're often back on the street within a month (if that). So I have zero faith in the system that's there is defend me/others from this sort of situation because it won't really do much to curtail it.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Y2HH

[Jenksismyhero]

Since people like the idea of deterrence and clearly gun ownership doesn't prevent robberies (case in point). If running away from armed homeowner doesn't keep you from getting shot, why would a home invader not just start a shootout? The burglar clearly didn't intend to use the firearm, just as something to spook anyone inside. He figures that if he runs away he might go to jail but at least he isn't getting shot.

 

When people try to convince folks like me that being armed is a powerful deterrent, they usually emphasize that an encounter like the one being described doesn't have to end violently. But now apparently it does and should.

 

To be clear, I don't think the case we're talking about is 100% cut and dry or some example of the most egregious poor judgment or malice. But guns aren't toys and to the extent I'm willing to say that we should have them in our society, I expect more than the level of discretion any old person who might be handed a gun would have. This is why you hear some people horrified at how easy it is to procure a gun. You don't want it to both be easy to get a gun and have legal interpretations that assume the least from those who might try to use them justifiably.

 

?? That gun stopped the robbery. Id say it was a pretty effective detterent.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Jenksismybitch

[Jake]

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/09/ge...n-martin-corpse

 

A fan of George Zimmerman's mentioned him in a tweet that contained a picture of Trayvon Martin's dead body, Zimmerman retweeted it. Also, I guess his Twitter account has just become a general outpost for him to make it clear what sort of person he is

[Brian]

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/09/ge...n-martin-corpse

 

A fan of George Zimmerman's mentioned him in a tweet that contained a picture of Trayvon Martin's dead body, Zimmerman retweeted it. Also, I guess his Twitter account has just become a general outpost for him to make it clear what sort of person he is

 

I remember seeing an article when he first joined twitter so looked at his page and the stuff he was tweeting was just disgusting. Tweeted a pic of him on a beach saying Karma is realling coming to get him or something. Lots of braggery.

 

I don't wish death on anyone but with this dude's behavior after the trial, I'd consider it for him. He's the lowest kind of garbage and I don't even care about his beliefs.

[pettie4sox]

I remember seeing an article when he first joined twitter so looked at his page and the stuff he was tweeting was just disgusting. Tweeted a pic of him on a beach saying Karma is realling coming to get him or something. Lots of braggery.

 

I don't wish death on anyone but with this dude's behavior after the trial, I'd consider it for him. He's the lowest kind of garbage and I don't even care about his beliefs.

 

Zimmerman is going to run into someone that is quicker on the trigger finger sooner rather than later.

 

His days are numbered.

Edited September 30, 2015 by pettie4sox

[DrunkBomber]

Zimmerman is going to run into someone that is quicker on the trigger finger sooner rather than later.

 

His days are numbered.

Im legitimately shocked it hasnt happened yet. What a piece of s*** this guy is.

[MexSoxFan#1]

Zimmerman is going to run into someone that is quicker on the trigger finger sooner rather than later.

 

His days are numbered.

I've been saying this since he got away with murder. Dude is just a piece of s*** troublemaker and eventually it'll catch up yo him. Hopefully he doesn't kill anymore people before his time is up.

[EvilMonkey]

I've been saying this since he got away with murder. Dude is just a piece of s*** troublemaker and eventually it'll catch up yo him. Hopefully he doesn't kill anymore people before his time is up.

And yet before the incident he was a model citizen, and hispanic.

[StrangeSox]

didn't he have an assault or something on his record prior to this?

[Balta1701]

didn't he have an assault or something on his record prior to this?

Prior to his heroic killing of an unarmed teenager, he had several runins with the law but none serious.

July 2005, Zimmerman was arrested and accused of resisting an officer with violence near the University of Central Florida campus after a scuffle with police. The charges were eventually dropped after Zimmerman entered an alcohol education program.

 

— August 2005, Zimmerman's former fiancee filed for a restraining order against him, alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman responded by requesting a restraining order against her. Both requests were granted. No criminal charges were filed.

[Brian]

The first episode of the Trayvon Martin docuseries premieres last night on Paramount Network (formerly Spike TV). Think it’s 3 or 4 eps.