2012 White Sox Catch-All thread

[bigruss]

Trivia questions! No cheating allowed

 

1) Of players with atleast 40 plate appearances in the second half, who had the highest OPS on the White Sox?

2) Given the same criteria as in question 1, how many players had an OPS of .800 or better in the second half?

 

If you can figure out the answers to these questions, you have found biggest area of need for the Chicago White Sox.

Throwing some guesses out:

 

1) Flowers

2) 2

[justBLAZE]

Throwing some guesses out:

 

1) Flowers

2) 2

 

You got it right, the two being Flowers and Rios.

[witesoxfan]

Bingo bango. The offense was abysmal in the second half of the year and they really need to try and find a way to get an impact bat in the lineup. I think Ventura could have worked the lineup a little better too, because Adam Dunn really is about the worst imaginable 3rd hitter I can think of. You generally want your 3-hole guy to be a guy who makes good, solid contact with some power and speed, and doesn't strike out an overly large amount. Adam Dunn makes terrible contact, has an assload of power, has virtually no speed, and strikes out at an incredible rate.

 

The 3 spots you can do that are 3B, 2B, and LF, and I would say in that order too. The Sox currently have no one at 3B, so that's the obvious spot. Beckham has been incredibly disappointing offensively but is great defensively and is still cheap, so he can stick around too unless a crazy offer comes up. I bring up LF simply because it's an area with a lot of impact bats around the majors and Viciedo has quite a bit of value being young still while having a pretty good season. He could be a pretty solid bat though too, perhaps to the tune of an .825-.850 OPS, and I don't know that you want to give that up.

 

There are probably other creative ways as well, and getting Konerko healthy will help, but those are the 3 biggest spots I see.

[southsider2k5]

Bingo bango. The offense was abysmal in the second half of the year and they really need to try and find a way to get an impact bat in the lineup. I think Ventura could have worked the lineup a little better too, because Adam Dunn really is about the worst imaginable 3rd hitter I can think of. You generally want your 3-hole guy to be a guy who makes good, solid contact with some power and speed, and doesn't strike out an overly large amount. Adam Dunn makes terrible contact, has an assload of power, has virtually no speed, and strikes out at an incredible rate.

 

The 3 spots you can do that are 3B, 2B, and LF, and I would say in that order too. The Sox currently have no one at 3B, so that's the obvious spot. Beckham has been incredibly disappointing offensively but is great defensively and is still cheap, so he can stick around too unless a crazy offer comes up. I bring up LF simply because it's an area with a lot of impact bats around the majors and Viciedo has quite a bit of value being young still while having a pretty good season. He could be a pretty solid bat though too, perhaps to the tune of an .825-.850 OPS, and I don't know that you want to give that up.

 

There are probably other creative ways as well, and getting Konerko healthy will help, but those are the 3 biggest spots I see.

 

Crazy thought of the day... Is Arod now available with his playoff flop? We know Kenny pushed for him at least twice. (as a FA, and then as a potential trade candidate a few years back) A deal for a Quintana or Santiago gives the Yankees a young, cheap pitcher for their rotation. Sox get back Arod, and cash to cover 1/2 to 2/3 of the deal.

[Eminor3rd]

I think Ventura could have worked the lineup a little better too, because Adam Dunn really is about the worst imaginable 3rd hitter I can think of. You generally want your 3-hole guy to be a guy who makes good, solid contact with some power and speed, and doesn't strike out an overly large amount. Adam Dunn makes terrible contact, has an assload of power, has virtually no speed, and strikes out at an incredible rate.

 

I've mentioned this several times before, but according to the research Tom Tango did on linear weights and the base/out probability, Adam Dunn is a prototypical 3 hole hitter.

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/c05.shtml

 

I recommend the reading, but the long and short of it is that the #3 hitter hits with bases empty and two outs more than anyone and also hits with 1 out and a runner on first more than anyone. Therefore, high power is the best attribute of a #3 hitter, and high strikeouts are actually desireable because they avoid double plays and don't hurt any more than other outs when they are the last out of an inning.

 

The "traditional" #3 hitter prototype is really what the #2 hitter should be, who gets more RBI-on-a-basehit-or-extra-base-hit opportunities than anyone other than the #4 hitter, and is probably the most wasted lineup spot in "traditional" lineups. I actually LOVE Ventura's lineup construction because Youk/DUnn/Konerko/Rios makes so much sense according to this research. In retrospect, Rios probably should have been the #2 hitter, but #5 is a great place for him too and Youkilis was perfect for it when he was hot.

 

Here's a bastardized summary, not nearly as good as the Book itself: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3/17...-your-lineup-by

[cabiness42]

I've mentioned this several times before, but according to the research Tom Tango did on linear weights and the base/out probability, Adam Dunn is a prototypical 3 hole hitter.

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/c05.shtml

 

I recommend the reading, but the long and short of it is that the #3 hitter hits with bases empty and two outs more than anyone and also hits with 1 out and a runner on first more than anyone. Therefore, high power is the best attribute of a #3 hitter, and high strikeouts are actually desireable because they avoid double plays and don't hurt any more than other outs when they are the last out of an inning.

 

The "traditional" #3 hitter prototype is really what the #2 hitter should be, who gets more RBI-on-a-basehit-or-extra-base-hit opportunities than anyone other than the #4 hitter, and is probably the most wasted lineup spot in "traditional" lineups. I actually LOVE Ventura's lineup construction because Youk/DUnn/Konerko/Rios makes so much sense according to this research. In retrospect, Rios probably should have been the #2 hitter, but #5 is a great place for him too and Youkilis was perfect for it when he was hot.

 

Here's a bastardized summary, not nearly as good as the Book itself: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3/17...-your-lineup-by

 

Excellent post, and right on the nose. SLG and OBP are both more important in a #3 hitter than contact. Sox fans got spoiled having Frank Thomas in the #3 slot for so many years, having that once-in-a-lifetime guy who was a high contact/high average guy to go along with the great power.

 

[Disco72]

I've mentioned this several times before, but according to the research Tom Tango did on linear weights and the base/out probability, Adam Dunn is a prototypical 3 hole hitter.

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/c05.shtml

 

I recommend the reading, but the long and short of it is that the #3 hitter hits with bases empty and two outs more than anyone and also hits with 1 out and a runner on first more than anyone. Therefore, high power is the best attribute of a #3 hitter, and high strikeouts are actually desireable because they avoid double plays and don't hurt any more than other outs when they are the last out of an inning.

 

The "traditional" #3 hitter prototype is really what the #2 hitter should be, who gets more RBI-on-a-basehit-or-extra-base-hit opportunities than anyone other than the #4 hitter, and is probably the most wasted lineup spot in "traditional" lineups. I actually LOVE Ventura's lineup construction because Youk/DUnn/Konerko/Rios makes so much sense according to this research. In retrospect, Rios probably should have been the #2 hitter, but #5 is a great place for him too and Youkilis was perfect for it when he was hot.

 

Here's a bastardized summary, not nearly as good as the Book itself: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3/17...-your-lineup-by

 

Thanks for the post and the book suggestion. I really enjoy it when I learn something, and when common myths (e.g., about the prototypical 3rd place hitter) are debunked.

[witesoxfan]

I've mentioned this several times before, but according to the research Tom Tango did on linear weights and the base/out probability, Adam Dunn is a prototypical 3 hole hitter.

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/c05.shtml

 

I recommend the reading, but the long and short of it is that the #3 hitter hits with bases empty and two outs more than anyone and also hits with 1 out and a runner on first more than anyone. Therefore, high power is the best attribute of a #3 hitter, and high strikeouts are actually desireable because they avoid double plays and don't hurt any more than other outs when they are the last out of an inning.

 

The "traditional" #3 hitter prototype is really what the #2 hitter should be, who gets more RBI-on-a-basehit-or-extra-base-hit opportunities than anyone other than the #4 hitter, and is probably the most wasted lineup spot in "traditional" lineups. I actually LOVE Ventura's lineup construction because Youk/DUnn/Konerko/Rios makes so much sense according to this research. In retrospect, Rios probably should have been the #2 hitter, but #5 is a great place for him too and Youkilis was perfect for it when he was hot.

 

Here's a bastardized summary, not nearly as good as the Book itself: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3/17...-your-lineup-by

 

I suppose that makes sense, and I subscribe to the theory of having your 3 best hitters hitting 1, 2, and 4 too. Maybe I just want Dunn to be better.

[2nd_city_saint787]

I've mentioned this several times before, but according to the research Tom Tango did on linear weights and the base/out probability, Adam Dunn is a prototypical 3 hole hitter.

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/c05.shtml

 

I recommend the reading, but the long and short of it is that the #3 hitter hits with bases empty and two outs more than anyone and also hits with 1 out and a runner on first more than anyone. Therefore, high power is the best attribute of a #3 hitter, and high strikeouts are actually desireable because they avoid double plays and don't hurt any more than other outs when they are the last out of an inning.

 

The "traditional" #3 hitter prototype is really what the #2 hitter should be, who gets more RBI-on-a-basehit-or-extra-base-hit opportunities than anyone other than the #4 hitter, and is probably the most wasted lineup spot in "traditional" lineups. I actually LOVE Ventura's lineup construction because Youk/DUnn/Konerko/Rios makes so much sense according to this research. In retrospect, Rios probably should have been the #2 hitter, but #5 is a great place for him too and Youkilis was perfect for it when he was hot.

 

Here's a bastardized summary, not nearly as good as the Book itself: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/3/17...-your-lineup-by

 

I support this as a Dunn supporter.

 

I also would support Rios is the 2 hole, but i would want someone with some pop down in the 5 spot should that happen.

[southsider2k5]

Scot Gregor ‏@scotgregor

 

From White Sox PR ace Ray Garcia via STATS: Alex Rios had 77-pt. improvement (.227-.304), from 2011 to '12, tops among qualified MLB hitters

[Jerksticks]

Debunked? Lol I love speaking in comedic absolutes as much as the next guy but ya gotta expect retorts for such silliness. I just hope some are provided.

 

Dude was blown away by every fastball that mattered all year! One exception: that 2 homer game end of the year. One exception IMO. Choke city any other time my eyes watched. It was painful. KW only blunder in 10 years.

[Eminor3rd]

Debunked? Lol I love speaking in comedic absolutes as much as the next guy but ya gotta expect retorts for such silliness. I just hope some are provided.

 

Dude was blown away by every fastball that mattered all year! One exception: that 2 homer game end of the year. One exception IMO. Choke city any other time my eyes watched. It was painful. KW only blunder in 10 years.

 

I assume you're talking about Dunn here. To be clear, I'm not arguing for or against his acquisition at all. I'm just saying that, given the roster that we had in 2012, Dunn was the best choice for the #3 slot in the lineup based on type of hitter he is. And this opinion is based on base/out state and linear weights research done by Tom Tango, which I think is really solid.

[southsideirish71]

I assume you're talking about Dunn here. To be clear, I'm not arguing for or against his acquisition at all. I'm just saying that, given the roster that we had in 2012, Dunn was the best choice for the #3 slot in the lineup based on type of hitter he is. And this opinion is based on base/out state and linear weights research done by Tom Tango, which I think is really solid.

 

I don't think he was the best choice for the #3 spot. The season is long and the second half Dunn was a shell of what you would consider a 3 hole hitter. The man had a .729 OPS with a .302 OBP for the second half of the season. So no matter what algorithm you use to optimize your lineup, Adam Dunn doesn't belong in the 3 hole.

[cabiness42]

I don't think he was the best choice for the #3 spot. The season is long and the second half Dunn was a shell of what you would consider a 3 hole hitter. The man had a .729 OPS with a .302 OBP for the second half of the season. So no matter what algorithm you use to optimize your lineup, Adam Dunn doesn't belong in the 3 hole.

 

I don't know who you think the alternatives were. Rios and AJ had great power numbers the second half, but their OBPs were .315 and .311. Everybody else had just as bad a second half as Dunn. The reason this team failed is that a guy with a .302 OBP and .729 OPS was the best choice for the #3 spot.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Debunked? Lol I love speaking in comedic absolutes as much as the next guy but ya gotta expect retorts for such silliness. I just hope some are provided.

 

Dude was blown away by every fastball that mattered all year! One exception: that 2 homer game end of the year. One exception IMO. Choke city any other time my eyes watched. It was painful. KW only blunder in 10 years.

 

 

Explain what you mean by blunder.

 

If you wanna call it a blunder because he wasn't the player he was the previous years then so be it but he certainly wasn't a bad sign.

 

Pre all-in it was clear the Sox needed a LH power hitting DH. KW got that. His previous 2 years he averaged .264/.378/.911 with 38 Hr and 104 RBI. It was the perfect signing by KW, it just hasn't paid off.

[Eminor3rd]

I don't think he was the best choice for the #3 spot. The season is long and the second half Dunn was a shell of what you would consider a 3 hole hitter. The man had a .729 OPS with a .302 OBP for the second half of the season. So no matter what algorithm you use to optimize your lineup, Adam Dunn doesn't belong in the 3 hole.

 

You didn't read my first post, did you? It does make sense in the algorithm where the ideal #3 hitter is your 5th best hitter who ideally has big time power and strikes out a lot more than he grounds out. Which is the algorithm I'm arguing for, and that is precisely what Adam Dunn was this year.

[southsider2k5]

jon greenberg ‏@espnchijon

 

White Sox hired founder of ESPN Sports Poll Rich Luker to do research on fan behavior.

[cabiness42]

jon greenberg ‏@espnchijon

 

White Sox hired founder of ESPN Sports Poll Rich Luker to do research on fan behavior.

 

I always wondered what he'd do after leaving the Senate.

 

[Jake]

I don't think he was the best choice for the #3 spot. The season is long and the second half Dunn was a shell of what you would consider a 3 hole hitter. The man had a .729 OPS with a .302 OBP for the second half of the season. So no matter what algorithm you use to optimize your lineup, Adam Dunn doesn't belong in the 3 hole.

 

It makes sense only when you have a flaming hot PK batting after him. You don't have to throw Adam Dunn strikes when you have the human DP batting after him without a threat of anything more than a slap single.

[SOXOBAMA]

I think that the Sox will be shutout in the post season awards

Mgr of the YR- Buck Showalter

CY Young - Jered Weaver

Comeback Player- Fernando Rodney

[LittleHurt05]

I think that the Sox will be shutout in the post season awards

Mgr of the YR- Buck Showalter

CY Young - Jered Weaver

Comeback Player- Fernando Rodney

 

What did Fernando Rodney come back from? It's not like he had one bad year, he has always been bad.

[SOXOBAMA]

What did Fernando Rodney come back from? It's not like he had one bad year, he has always been bad.

 

Joe Smith ‏@TBTimesRays2

#Rays Rodney named AL Comeback Player of the Year and MLB's Delivery Man of the Year.

 

TR Sullivan ‏@Sullivan_Ranger

Fernando Rodney of Tampa Bay beat out Joe Nathan of the Rangers for Comeback Player of the Year

 

Edited October 19, 2012 by SOXOBAMA

[LittleHurt05]

Joe Smith ‏@TBTimesRays2

#Rays Rodney named AL Comeback Player of the Year and MLB's Delivery Man of the Year.

 

TR Sullivan ‏@Sullivan_Ranger

Fernando Rodney of Tampa Bay beat out Joe Nathan of the Rangers for Comeback Player of the Year

 

Wow. I stand by my point that he was never any good, so it can't be called a "comeback". I guess the media sees it differently. That definitely hurts the chances of Rios and/or Dunn.

[Kyyle23]

I agree Littlehurt. He should win a "Out of Nowhere" award, not a Comeback award

[Quin]

How was this NOT Rios or Dunn?