Chris Sale is now the CLOSER?!/Until he's not (Update)

[TaylorStSox]

Chris Sale has/had actual superstar talent and ability.

You can't take a Jeff Marquez or Dylan Axelrod or Nestor Molina and make them 1-2-3 starters in the major leagues. No pitching coach in history could pull that off.

 

Cooper has done nothing wrong with John. Danks is clearly having a dead arm period or more serious physical problems that no pitching coach could overcome.

 

 

THE ONLY hope I have for the starting rotation in the future is the possibility that Santiago and/or Castro can make it.

 

And after Zach Stewart's no longer with the White Sox, we'll see how many other teams pick him up and turn him into a 20 game winner.

So Sale has superstar ability and it was stupid to take him in the 1st round? You need to get out of the crib more. Take a walk or something. Grab a drink and wake up in somebody's yard.

[TaylorStSox]

ONCE AGAIN, you have to LIKE ACTUALLY look at the future when you draft a kid.

 

KW was only looking at 2010 and 2011 when that draft pick was made, and bolstering the bullpen immediately.

If he actually would have kept Jim Thome around, we probably would have won the ALCD in 2010 and it would have been at least somewhat logical.

 

 

As it now stands, it doesn't help us at all for 2013/2014/2015 and beyond. We already had Sergio Santos, who was cost-controlled and effective. Why do we need for our top two prospects to be relegated to the least valuable status possible for a team in rebuilding mode?

 

It's called planning and future projection.

Now, you're in Williams' head too? You know what the organization was thinking.

 

You guys are going to b**** when we draft safe. You're going to b**** when we take risks. The last few 1st round picks have been great IMO, including Sale. It beats the hell out of Broadway and McCulloh or whatever the f*** his name was.

[caulfield12]

So Sale has superstar ability and it was stupid to take him in the 1st round? You need to get out of the crib more. Take a walk or something. Grab a drink and wake up in somebody's yard.

 

Can you READ?

 

Just because he has superstar ability in his ARM doesn't mean his arm will stay attached.

 

See Mark Prior.

 

It was STUPID to take a reliever with the 13th pick in the first round, end of story.

 

I shouldn't have bothered to say superstar, because there's NO SUCH THING AS A SUPERSTAR RELIEVER EXCEPT MARIANO RIVERA IN ALL OF BASEBALL HISTORY.

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

Now, you're in Williams' head too? You know what the organization was thinking.

 

You guys are going to b**** when we draft safe. You're going to b**** when we take risks. The last few 1st round picks have been great IMO, including Sale. It beats the hell out of Broadway and McCulloh or whatever the f*** his name was.

 

 

The problem is that RISK-TAKING IS NOT FOR THE FIRST ROUND.

 

You spend overslot once you have your guaranteed guys and you roll the dice in the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th-10th on high risk/high reward guys like Trayce Thompson or Mitchell.

 

You go out and get a Rick Porcello instead of spending that money on Manny Ramirez, Mark Teahen or Jason Frasor.

[TaylorStSox]

Can you READ?

 

Just because he has superstar ability in his ARM doesn't mean his arm will stay attached.

 

See Mark Prior.

 

It was STUPID to take a reliever with the 13th pick in the first round, end of story.

 

I shouldn't have bothered to say superstar, because there's NO SUCH THING AS A SUPERSTAR RELIEVER EXCEPT MARIANO RIVERA IN ALL OF BASEBALL HISTORY.

You wouldn't have drafted Mark Prior either? Are you a psychic or something? Call the Sox and give them some advice, then. They need your forecasting ability.

 

But seriously, he was the 13th pick. You don't use a top 3 pick on a guy with bad mechanics. If you can grab a lefty at 13 who throws 100 MPH with 2 good off speed pitches, you take the risk and hope his arm can holds up.

[TaylorStSox]

The problem is that RISK-TAKING IS NOT FOR THE FIRST ROUND.

 

You spend overslot once you have your guaranteed guys and you roll the dice in the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th-10th on high risk/high reward guys like Trayce Thompson or Mitchell.

 

You go out and get a Rick Porcello instead of spending that money on Manny Ramirez, Mark Teahen or Jason Frasor.

 

Yeah, but Rick Porcello kind of sucks.

[Dick Allen]

The problem is that RISK-TAKING IS NOT FOR THE FIRST ROUND.

 

You spend overslot once you have your guaranteed guys and you roll the dice in the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th-10th on high risk/high reward guys like Trayce Thompson or Mitchell.

 

You go out and get a Rick Porcello instead of spending that money on Manny Ramirez, Mark Teahen or Jason Frasor.

Go back to that draft on google, and tell me who they should have selected instead of Sale. You will have a definite advantage as you can select ANY player from the 2010 draft picked after the "wasted selection of Sale". Give me that name, you will have the advantage of being able to determine 2 years worth of development, I will take Sale the releiver, you can have your selection and I will bet you whatever you would like to bet that 5 years from now, Sale was the better pick.

[Jake]

Moving Chris Sale may or may not be the right move -- I, like all of you, do not have all of the facts.

 

But taking him in the draft was a given, that was a great pick.

[Dick Allen]

Not exactly the Baseball Bible but here is Bleacher Reports take on the Sox selection of Sale the day he was chosen:

 

13. Chicago White Sox-Chris Sale, LHP

 

There are a lot of durability concerns about Sale. This 6′6″ lefty projects to be a relief pitcher.

 

 

The fact of the matter is if Sale projected to physically being able to give you anywhere close to 200 innings a year, the Sox would never had a chance at drafting him. I guess when news like Sale is going to be a releiver comes out people want to go back to the "safe" draft pick and get guys like Lance Broadway.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

The problem is that RISK-TAKING IS NOT FOR THE FIRST ROUND.

 

You spend overslot once you have your guaranteed guys and you roll the dice in the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th-10th on high risk/high reward guys like Trayce Thompson or Mitchell.

 

You go out and get a Rick Porcello instead of spending that money on Manny Ramirez, Mark Teahen or Jason Frasor.

Who should the Sox have taken:

 

2010 Major League Baseball Draft Results (First Round)

 

1. Washington Nationals -- Bryce Harper -- C/OF -- College of Southern Nevada

2. Pittsburgh Pirates -- Jameson Taillon -- P -- The Woodlands High School

3. Baltimore Orioles -- Manny Machado -- SS -- Brito Private High School (Miami)

4. Kansas City Royals -- Christian Colon -- SS -- Cal. State Fullerton

5. Cleveland Indians -- Drew Pomeranz -- P -- Mississippi

6. Arizona Diamondbacks -- Barret Loux -- P -- Texas A&M

7. New York Mets -- Matt Harvey -- P -- North Carolina

8. Houston Astros -- Delino DeShields Jr. -- 2B -- Woodward Academy

9. San Diego Padres -- Karsten Whitson -- P -- Chipley High School

10. Oakland Athletics -- Michael Choice -- OF -- University of Texas Arlington

11. Toronto Blue Jays -- Deck McGuire -- P -- Georgia Tech

12. Cincinnati Reds -- Yasmani Grandal -- C -- University of Miami

13. Chicago White Sox -- Chris Sale -- P -- Florida Gulf Coast University

14. Milwaukee Brewers -- Dylan Covey -- P -- Maranatha High School

15. Texas Rangers -- Jake Skole -- OF -- Georgia Tech

16. Chicago Cubs -- Hayden Simpson -- P -- Southern Arkansas

 

17. Tampa Bay Rays -- Josh Sale -- OF -- Bishop Blanchet High School

18. Anaheim Angels -- Kaleb Cowart -- 3B -- Cook High School of Georgia

19. Houston Astros -- Mike Foltynewicz -- P -- University of Texas

20. Boston Red Sox -- Kolbrin Vitek -- 2B -- Ball State University

21. Minnesota Twins -- Alex Wimmers -- P -- Ohio State University

22. Texas Rangers -- Kellin DeGlan -- C -- R.E. Mountain High School

23. Florida Marlins -- Christian Yelich -- OF -- Westlake High School (California)

24. San Francisco Giants -- Gary Brown -- OF -- Cal. State Fullerton

25. St. Louis Cardinals -- Zach Cox -- 3B -- University of Arkansas

26. Colorado Rockies -- Kyle Parker -- OF -- Clemson University

27. Philadelphia Phillies -- Jesse Biddle -- P -- Germantown Friendship High School (Pennsylvania)

28. Los Angeles Dodgers -- Zach Lee -- P -- McKinney High School

29. Anaheim Angels -- Cam Bedrosian -- P -- East Coweta High School (Georgia)

30. Anaheim Angels -- Chevy Clarke -- OF -- Marietta High School (Georgia)

31. Tampa Bay Rays -- Justin O'Conner -- C-- Cowan High School (Indiana)

32. New York Yankees -- Cito Culver -- SS -- Irondequoit High School (New York)

 

[caulfield12]

Go back to that draft on google, and tell me who they should have selected instead of Sale. You will have a definite advantage as you can select ANY player from the 2010 draft picked after the "wasted selection of Sale". Give me that name, you will have the advantage of being able to determine 2 years worth of development, I will take Sale the releiver, you can have your selection and I will bet you whatever you would like to bet that 5 years from now, Sale was the better pick.

 

 

Ring, Poreda, Sale.

 

See the pattern?

 

It's pretty bad when you're defending using the 13th pick in the first round of a draft on someone (essentially) who the GM traded for Nestor Molina.

 

How valuable is that?

 

You mean to tell me that Chris Sale could have gotten us Molina AND Stewart because he's left-handed? Wow! Consider me impressed.

 

 

And, ONCE AGAIN, who will Chris Sale and Addison Reed close or lock down games for? We're going to trade our best starter or lose him after the season (Jake Peavy), so why is the bullpen so important for a team now in full rebuilding mode?

 

 

 

Chris Young

Gio Gonzalez

Clayton Richard

Daniel Hudson

Edwin Jackson

David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system)

Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn

Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn

Mark Buehrle

Sergio Santos

Nick Swisher

Ryan Sweeney

Fautino DeLosSantos

 

I'd like to have all those players back. Then Chris Sale ending up as a reliever wouldn't be make or break for this organization going forward.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2012 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Ring, Poreda, Sale.

 

See the pattern?

 

It's pretty bad when you're defending using the 13th pick in the first round of a draft on someone (essentially) who the GM traded for Nestor Molina.

 

How valuable is that?

 

You mean to tell me that Chris Sale could have gotten us Molina AND Stewart because he's left-handed? Wow! Consider me impressed.

 

 

And, ONCE AGAIN, who will Chris Sale and Addison Reed close or lock down games for? We're going to trade our best starter or lose him after the season (Jake Peavy), so why is the bullpen so important for a team now in full rebuilding mode?

Castro, Molina. If Don Cooper can get Phil Humber to throw a perfect game, remember how much credit you gave him for that, he certainly can make Castro and Molina decent MLB starters. I posted the 1st round of Sale's draft. Who should they have selected ?

Edited May 5, 2012 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Worth pointing out, everyone here loved the Sale pick at the time because it was an aggressive, high ceiling, hard throwing guy that was taken in a place where he might have to be paid above slot, the opposite of the "Safe" picks from the previous years.

[TaylorStSox]

Ring, Poreda, Sale.

 

See the pattern?

 

It's pretty bad when you're defending using the 13th pick in the first round of a draft on someone (essentially) who the GM traded for Nestor Molina.

 

How valuable is that?

 

You mean to tell me that Chris Sale could have gotten us Molina AND Stewart because he's left-handed? Wow! Consider me impressed.

 

 

And, ONCE AGAIN, who will Chris Sale and Addison Reed close or lock down games for? We're going to trade our best starter or lose him after the season (Jake Peavy), so why is the bullpen so important for a team now in full rebuilding mode?

 

 

 

Chris Young

Gio Gonzalez

Clayton Richard

Daniel Hudson

Edwin Jackson

David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system)

Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn

Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn

Mark Buehrle

Sergio Santos

Nick Swisher

Ryan Sweeney

Fautino DeLosSantos

 

I'd like to have all those players back. Then Chris Sale ending up as a reliever wouldn't be make or break for this organization going forward.

 

How are any of those players relevant to Chris Sale's s***ty elbow? You've been waiting for this rant for a while, right?

[Marty34]

Worth pointing out, everyone here loved the Sale pick at the time because it was an aggressive, high ceiling, hard throwing guy that was taken in a place where he might have to be paid above slot, the opposite of the "Safe" picks from the previous years.

 

With due respect, I don't think it is worth pointing out. The White Sox are privy to information specific to their organization's short and long-term plans that no expert or message board poster commenting on the pick has. For instance, did they make Reed a reliever because they figured they had Sale as a future starter in their hip-pocket?

[Reddy]

With due respect, I don't think it is worth pointing out. The White Sox are privy to information specific to their organization's short and long-term plans that no expert or message board poster commenting on the pick has. For instance, did they make Reed a reliever because they figured they had Sale as a future starter in their hip-pocket?

holy f*** i agree with you

[Reddy]

and this taylor guy needs to stop.

[TaylorStSox]

With due respect, I don't think it is worth pointing out. The White Sox are privy to information specific to their organization's short and long-term plans that no expert or message board poster commenting on the pick has. For instance, did they make Reed a reliever because they figured they had Sale as a future starter in their hip-pocket?

Are you serious? How many teams draft based on what they'll have in the majors 2 years down the line? They probably do what most teams do and draft the best player available. You don't draft on "need" in baseball, development is too fluid.

[Reddy]

Are you serious? How many teams draft based on what they'll have in the majors 2 years down the line? They probably do what most teams do and draft the best player available. You don't draft on "need" in baseball, development is too fluid.

that's the point of a draft. 2 or more years down the line.

 

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[TaylorStSox]

and this taylor guy needs to stop.

Stop having an opinion? Stop expressing my opinion? Stop posting?

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

I think Taylor's got the MLB draft confused with the NFL draft.

[Jake]

It's pretty bad when you're defending using the 13th pick in the first round of a draft on someone (essentially) who the GM traded for Nestor Molina.

 

WHAT? No. That's not it. The 13th pick in the draft is on our team and will continue to contribute...we have control of him for years. If anything, Sergio Santos pitched just well enough that we were able to delicately develop Sale away from the tough closer's role (ala Reed right now).

 

Also still trying to figure out why we were supposed to get a future ace for an average closer with just a year's track record in Santos.

 

Chris Young - He and Adam Dunn are in a tight race for career batting average, stay tuned.

Gio Gonzalez - Good player. We traded him for Thome (good deal) and Swisher (who you want back)

Clayton Richard - Well. He's had one good full season in a pitcher's park, missed half of another with injury, and is now 28 and off to a slow start.

Daniel Hudson - Promising young player, but again just one full season under his belt and a slow start underway. Traded him for a player you want.

Edwin Jackson - Reliable starting pitcher/innings eater, the type of middle of the rotation production that you blasted Nestor Molina for projecting out to.

David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system) - who knows, just a prospect

Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn - not fair to consider this a player lost

Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn - not fair to consider this a player lost

Mark Buehrle - He's old. Sorry, the Marlins gave him way more money than he's worth. Kenny would have been blasted for spending the money.

Sergio Santos - Career 3.5 ERA in the bullpen, now at 28 years old in just his third season he's doing his best Hector Santiago impression.

Nick Swisher - Career .254 (.360 OBP) hitter that hits 20-30 HR/year and plays average defense in the corners. Played like s*** here and b****ed about getting benched for it. After that 35 HR season he seemed like he'd be great, but now he's over 30 and he's just an okay player.

Ryan Sweeney - Hardly has played full time in his career and never found the power stroke that would define his prospect status. Slugging a grand ol' .386 for his career.

Fautino DeLosSantos - His arm exploded as an A ball player after we traded him for a player you'd want back. Now he's 26 years old and just getting his first taste of middle relief.

 

These players aren't that great??? Sure, it'd be nice to have another starting pitcher but we thought we had more than enough. I guess Swish/Sweeney might play over Viciedo but that's dumb, we want Viciedo there for 10 years. If Viciedo wasn't playing there he'd be on this list.

[Reddy]

I think Taylor's got the MLB draft confused with the NFL draft.

this

[Balta1701]

Sorry for the thread cleanup pause there, I'm trying to get ready to see a movie and so I didn't want to sit here and get all that done that second.

 

Consider this a general thread warning that I don't want to have to come back and clean stuff up later today. Will be much less pleasant. Play nice.

[Jake]

Since we're going to talk about Kenny Williams as if he's never made a good move, let's just go ahead and mention all the good moves so we remember that he's actually done some good.

 

Aaron Rowand, Gio Gonzalez for Jim Thome

Freddy Garcia for Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez

Chris Carter for Carlos Quentin

Esteban Loaiza signing

Esteban Loaiza for Jose Contreras

Joe Borchard for Matt Thornton

Chris Sale draft pick

Signings in 2005 - AJ Pierzysnki, Jermaine Dye, Tadahito Iguchi, Bobby Jenks

Extending Paul Konerko 2x

Brandon McCarthy for John Danks

Alexei Ramirez signing

Phil Humber signing

 

TBD:

Dunn signing

Peavy trade (didn't lose much), especially if insurance payouts were had

Quentin trade (injured, who would guess that)

Ozzie Guillen compensation players? (lol, not entirely serious)

 

this is all I can remember off the top of my head. There are some non-moves, like non-tendering Jenks, that stick out as well