John Danks surgery/rehab/recovery thread

[Marty34]

And you weaken two positions, instead of just one.

 

Do you need three lefties in the pen? Santiago should be developed as a starter.

[southsider2k5]

Do you need three lefties in the pen? Santiago should be developed as a starter.

 

It isn't going to happen this year, barring something big happening.

[caulfield12]

Weakening the least important spot of the bullpen isn't as important as winning games in April and May and getting off to at least a decent start.

 

I just have a feeling Axelrod, the more times other teams face him and get video on him...will end up being a 5+ ERA starter. Who knows? Many feel the same way about Quintana after the 2nd half last year. We'll just have to wait and see, but there's one thing I know for sure, I'd feel more comfortable expecting a win with Santiago starting versus Dylan.

 

Is Axelrod as bad as most of the 5th straters we trotted out from 2001-2004? No. But when the Tigers are 6 deep in their rotation, and it's quality depth, we need to enter every game with the highest likelihood of getting a win.

 

Santiago put up 4 starts last year with a cumulative sub 2 ERA. Does anyone actually think Axelrod could have done the same?

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/9060/s...8DuPWaqVjmFCLcF

Axelrod had 3 quality starts in 7 tries. He also gave up 4, 5, 6 and 7 runs in his other starts.

 

With the pressure on the White Sox offense to score in the cold weather...Alexei's usual troubles, it seems that it would be better to take a chance behind the pitcher who's more likely to limit the opposition to just a few runs than one who is more likely to go out and give up 4 or more.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2013 by caulfield12

[LittleHurt05]

Weakening the least important spot of the bullpen isn't as important as winning games in April and May and getting off to at least a decent start.

 

I just have a feeling Axelrod, the more times other teams face him and get video on him...will end up being a 5+ ERA starter. Who knows? Many feel the same way about Quintana after the 2nd half last year. We'll just have to wait and see, but there's one thing I know for sure, I'd feel more comfortable expecting a win with Santiago starting versus Dylan.

 

Is Axelrod as bad as most of the 5th straters we trotted out from 2001-2004? No. But when the Tigers are 6 deep in their rotation, and it's quality depth, we need to enter every game with the highest likelihood of getting a win.

 

Santiago put up 4 starts last year with a cumulative sub 2 ERA. Does anyone actually think Axelrod could have done the same?

 

 

And only 2 of those starts did Santiago go even 5 innings, can you even call the other 2 "starts"? In 21 innings @ NYY, BOS, & BAL Axelrod gave up a total of 4 earned runs, that's far more impressive.

[southsider2k5]

Weakening the least important spot of the bullpen isn't as important as winning games in April and May and getting off to at least a decent start.

 

I just have a feeling Axelrod, the more times other teams face him and get video on him...will end up being a 5+ ERA starter. Who knows? Many feel the same way about Quintana after the 2nd half last year. We'll just have to wait and see, but there's one thing I know for sure, I'd feel more comfortable expecting a win with Santiago starting versus Dylan.

 

Is Axelrod as bad as most of the 5th straters we trotted out from 2001-2004? No. But when the Tigers are 6 deep in their rotation, and it's quality depth, we need to enter every game with the highest likelihood of getting a win.

 

Santiago put up 4 starts last year with a cumulative sub 2 ERA. Does anyone actually think Axelrod could have done the same?

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/9060/s...8DuPWaqVjmFCLcF

Axelrod had 3 quality starts in 7 tries. He also gave up 4, 5, 6 and 7 runs in his other starts.

 

With the pressure on the White Sox offense to score in the cold weather...Alexei's usual troubles, it seems that it would be better to take a chance behind the pitcher who's more likely to limit the opposition to just a few runs than one who is more likely to go out and give up 4 or more.

 

In a much bigger body of work, Axelrod has put up way better numbers in the minors.

[peteward]

And only 2 of those starts did Santiago go even 5 innings, can you even call the other 2 "starts"? In 21 innings @ NYY, BOS, & BAL Axelrod gave up a total of 4 earned runs, that's far more impressive.

 

 

I agree with you and with Ventura that Axe is likely to be the 5th starter for a while.

He always seems to be around the strike zone and seldom makes mistakes right over the plate.

He has some movement on his fastball, a nice slider and a change-up that is his swing and miss K pitch.

 

Let's all be honest about Danks. None of us know when he will return to his prior form, and I hate to say this, but there is no guarantee from his surgeon that Danks will throw 90+ mph with control over his pitches as a starting pitcher ever again. It is brutal to think about that but that worse case scenario is in the back of our minds. Given that, I do not think the Sox are or should be planning on Danks returning to the 25 man roster or to the rotation any time soon.

 

[caulfield12]

In a much bigger body of work, Axelrod has put up way better numbers in the minors.

 

 

But his career really took off in 2011, dramatically, so looking at Santiago pre-2011 in the minors is essentially about as valid in predicting Quintana's 2013 major league results based on his Florida State League or Low A ball numbers.

[caulfield12]

And only 2 of those starts did Santiago go even 5 innings, can you even call the other 2 "starts"? In 21 innings @ NYY, BOS, & BAL Axelrod gave up a total of 4 earned runs, that's far more impressive.

 

 

Don't we have the best bullpen in the AL, if everyone's healthy?

[Balta1701]

Well I personally don't think Danks will be making many starts in the first half of the season anyway. At least not in Chicago.

 

He needs to take as much time as possible to get that shoulder right and going every fifth day in Charlotte will be the best option. Let him get knocked around down there till June or July... once he's dominant in AAA then he can come back to Chicago in a position to help the Sox win. But I think it will take him more than a handful of starts to ge the kinks out.

 

If it was 2 starts, fine have Axe go out there and get rocked, but I don't think it will be. That's why I want Santiago in there. I think he gives them a better chance.

I think you're seriously underestimating how long "The first half of the season" is.

 

If he throws 100 innings (15-ish starts) in AAA and still isn't right, then there's something a lot bigger going on. That's like 4 different "Rehab assignments". I think the Sox would literally have to shut him down for several weeks to be able to get that through MLB's rules.

[greg775]

Instead of Axelrod, why don't the sox make a minor deal with KC and acquire Chen or Hochevar? You could get Hochevar for scraps and Chen for not much more than scraps IMO. Maybe they'll be no better than Axe. It's just something that popped in my head living in KC.

[LittleHurt05]

Don't we have the best bullpen in the AL, if everyone's healthy?

 

[Balta1701]

Don't we have the best bullpen in the AL, if everyone's healthy?

If Reed pitches like he did in the first half of last year, this answer would rapidly be "yes". Right now, no, but we have the talent to do that. We may well have more gas in the pen than anyone.

[Balta1701]

Instead of Axelrod, why don't the sox make a minor deal with KC and acquire Chen or Hochevar? You could get Hochevar for scraps and Chen for not much more than scraps IMO. Maybe they'll be no better than Axe. It's just something that popped in my head living in KC.

Bruce Chen had an ERA over 5 last year, is being paid $4.5 million this year, and would have a higher ERA if he didn't have to face the White Sox for 5 games.

 

I'd rather go with Axelrod and Santiago for a season than Bruce Chen.

[chw42]

Instead of Axelrod, why don't the sox make a minor deal with KC and acquire Chen or Hochevar? You could get Hochevar for scraps and Chen for not much more than scraps IMO. Maybe they'll be no better than Axe. It's just something that popped in my head living in KC.

 

Because Axelrod will give you similar numbers for no extra cost.

[caulfield12]

Hochevar would be the only one, because of his age and the fact that he has the stuff, if he had the right pitching coach, to POSSIBLY turns thing around.

 

Would depend 100% on what Cooper and the scouts thought about it.

 

We've seen reclamation projects work out over and over again, but Chen is what he is and not worth the price. Although Hochevar's getting to the point where he will be non-tendered, or more and more expensive, so now would be the time to move.

 

And you'd have to doubt they would be likely to deal him to a bitter division rival and then turn things around AGAINST the Royals. Pretty unlikely scenario that we could get him before he was non-tendered or released and found himself on the open market with the ability to pick and choose where he wanted to go.

[southsider2k5]

Danks expected to start on DL with Axe as fifth starter...

 

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...2fb_share%22%7D

[balfanman]

I really do respect the opinion of everyone here.....well....most of you anyway, but I believe that Hahn, Ventura, and Cooper have a strong desire to win. They also, along with Mister Schneider, know best the condition of Jon Danks. I for one will trust their opinions on who the 5th starter should be, temporarily or not.

[Special K]

If Reed pitches like he did in the first half of last year, this answer would rapidly be "yes". Right now, no, but we have the talent to do that. We may well have more gas in the pen than anyone.

 

If I were KC I would hold on to Chen and pitch him exclusivley against the White Sox. There's not a chance they beat him.

[southsider2k5]

Dan Hayes ‏@DanHayesCSN 4m

 

John Danks understands #WhiteSox decision to start him on disabled list. Still sees way more positives.

[Quin]

Danks expected to start on DL with Axe as fifth starter...

 

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/artic...2fb_share%22%7D

 

How a long a leash do Quintana, Axelrod, and Gavin get now? Santiago could very well claim the spot of the worst one.

 

If Quintana does poorly, Santiago steps in.

 

If Axelrod does poorly, Santiago steps in then Danks takes over.

 

If Floyd does poorly, Axelrod takes his spot and Santiago takes over until Danks returns.

 

Or they all do fantastically and we have a good problem.

 

 

I really do respect the opinion of everyone here.....well....most of you anyway, but I believe that Hahn, Ventura, and Cooper have a strong desire to win. They also, along with Mister Schneider, know best the condition of Jon Danks. I for one will trust their opinions on who the 5th starter should be, temporarily or not.

 

[peteward]

I was surprised to read about the injury to Danks and the prognosis.

Danks torn shoulder capsule diagnosis .

 

"When he finally did go under the knife, we found out that Danks' subscapularis injury had healed, but that the underlying problem turned out to be a torn shoulder capsule. The shoulder capsule problem is a relatively rare diagnosis and gathering details on those who've had the same issue has also been problematic. But the preliminary research is not promising given the names on the list: Johan Santana, Chris Young, Dallas Braden, Chien-Ming Wang, Pedro Feliciano, Tim Byrdak Mark Prior, Robb Nen, John Maine, Tomo Ohka and Rich Harden....and none of those guys have come back to be the pitchers they were."

 

 

That information is contrary to what Ventura stated:

"This is a part of the shoulder that they're not as worried about," White Sox manager Robin Ventura said. "If it was the labrum or something like that, it would be worse. It's good news. He'll be ready to go. I know he's pretty relieved as far as there was something there, they fixed it," Ventura said.

Ventura downplays Dank's injury and claims he will be ready to go

Edited March 21, 2013 by southside_hitman

[Jake]

I was surprised to read about the injury to Danks and the prognosis.

Danks torn shoulder capsule diagnosis .

 

"When he finally did go under the knife, we found out that Danks' subscapularis injury had healed, but that the underlying problem turned out to be a torn shoulder capsule. The shoulder capsule problem is a relatively rare diagnosis and gathering details on those who've had the same issue has also been problematic. But the preliminary research is not promising given the names on the list: Johan Santana, Chris Young, Dallas Braden, Chien-Ming Wang, Pedro Feliciano, Tim Byrdak Mark Prior, Robb Nen, John Maine, Tomo Ohka and Rich Harden....and none of those guys have come back to be the pitchers they were."

 

 

That information is contrary to what Ventura stated:

"This is a part of the shoulder that they're not as worried about," White Sox manager Robin Ventura said. "If it was the labrum or something like that, it would be worse. It's good news. He'll be ready to go. I know he's pretty relieved as far as there was something there, they fixed it," Ventura said.

Ventura downplays Dank's injury and claims he will be ready to go

 

We talked about this a couple pages ago. All of the examples except Johan had other significant issues like labrum, RC tears on top of the capsule issue. The only major pitcher we know of that had a capsule only injury recently was Johan, and he's been fine other than a leg injury.

 

[peteward]

We talked about this a couple pages ago. All of the examples except Johan had other significant issues like labrum, RC tears on top of the capsule issue. The only major pitcher we know of that had a capsule only injury recently was Johan, and he's been fine other than a leg injury.

 

I saw the conversation but there still seems to be some question about what exactly was done in the surgery and how that specific surgical procedure will impact throwing ability. Ventura himself was apparently misinformed

or mistaken about the relative severity of this kind of injury and the prognosis, and that is somewhat surprising.

Maybe others in the organization shared Ventura's belief that this particular injury was minor in comparison to other shoulder injuries and Ventura's false expectation that Danks would be ready for opening day.

 

The gist of one of the articles I cited is that this kind of injury and surgical procedure for pitchers is somewhat rare. There aren't enough cases to be able to determine the effectiveness of the surgery or a full recovery from it with any degree of certainty.

 

If Danks is not throwing at a progressively higher velocity over several starts, there may be no point in running him out for rehab starts in the minors. Perhaps the best course would be to shut him down for a few months and begin in some strengthening program for his shoulder before allowing him to throw from the mound.

Edited March 22, 2013 by southside_hitman

[witesoxfan]

I saw the conversation but there still seems to be some question about what exactly was done in the surgery and how that specific surgical procedure will impact throwing ability. Ventura himself was apparently misinformed

or mistaken about the relative severity of this kind of injury and the prognosis, and that is somewhat surprising.

Maybe others in the organization shared Ventura's belief that this particular injury was minor in comparison to other shoulder injuries and Ventura's false expectation that Danks would be ready for opening day.

 

The gist of one of the articles I cited is that this kind of injury and surgical procedure for pitchers is somewhat rare. There aren't enough cases to be able to determine the effectiveness of the surgery or a full recovery from it with any degree of certainty.

 

If Danks is not throwing at a progressively higher velocity over several starts, there may be no point in running him out for rehab starts in the minors. Perhaps the best course would be to shut him down for a few months and begin in some strengthening program for his shoulder before allowing him to throw from the mound.

 

This is an overreaction and a half.

 

They've already said there was no other injury aside from the surgery that was performed. Ventura is probably confused because he doesn't have a medical degree and he can really only relate so much. What we've been told is that it's a relatively safe and minor procedure but that he hasn't really thrown in about 9 months.

 

The article you cited has other pitchers who had other injuries along with it. Rotator cuffs and labrums are the worst injuries, and Danks's are fine.

 

Oh, and having not thrown in like 9 months, I'd say hitting 90 this early on is a pretty good indicator. Let him throw a bit and get a feel for his stuff again. It probably won't be long and he'll be back to where he needs to be.

[ScottyDo]

I saw the conversation but there still seems to be some question about what exactly was done in the surgery and how that specific surgical procedure will impact throwing ability. Ventura himself was apparently misinformed

or mistaken about the relative severity of this kind of injury and the prognosis, and that is somewhat surprising.

Maybe others in the organization shared Ventura's belief that this particular injury was minor in comparison to other shoulder injuries and Ventura's false expectation that Danks would be ready for opening day.

 

The gist of one of the articles I cited is that this kind of injury and surgical procedure for pitchers is somewhat rare. There aren't enough cases to be able to determine the effectiveness of the surgery or a full recovery from it with any degree of certainty.

 

If Danks is not throwing at a progressively higher velocity over several starts, there may be no point in running him out for rehab starts in the minors. Perhaps the best course would be to shut him down for a few months and begin in some strengthening program for his shoulder before allowing him to throw from the mound.

ptatc talked about this back when it happened. Essentially, it's uncommon for a pitcher to damage only his capsule and nothing else, which has been mentioned by other posters, but capsule repair by itself has an extremely positive prognosis.

 

I fail to see how RV was wrong in the quote you provided? Capsule is far superior to labrum.