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Ventura declines extension

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QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 12:08 PM)
^^ He is (or was) managing something somewhere in Indiana, so there is that. The mustache is probably good for 3-4 WAR(M?), maybe more.

 

This popped into my head the other day for some reason but I don't remember the last time a coach won a championship in Chicago and he didn't have some sort of facial hair.

 

Ditka had a mustache, Quenneville had a mustache, Phil Jackson always had a mustache or a full beard during the playoffs and Ozzie usually had a goatee.

 

I believe all of the current coaches except Q are clean-shaven. Now think about which team has the best chance to win a championship right now...

 

/end half-joking conspiracy theory

 

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QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 04:08 PM)
This popped into my head the other day for some reason but I don't remember the last time a coach won a championship in Chicago and he didn't have some sort of facial hair.

 

Ditka had a mustache, Quenneville had a mustache, Phil Jackson always had a mustache or a full beard during the playoffs and Ozzie usually had a goatee.

 

I believe all of the current coaches except Q are clean-shaven. Now think about which team has the best chance to win a championship right now...

 

/end half-joking conspiracy theory

 

You forgot about the 2008 Cubs, Sweet Lou.........Oh wait.........nevermind. :bang

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Exactly. Ventura never aspired to be a Manager and he doesn't look like he really wants to be out there.

Nobody is suggesting that we neede someone to rant like Ozzie, but I expected more of a baseball strategist, a guy

that was always thinking, and making good decisions before and during games..

 

So let's be specific about Ventura's managerial skills in 2012. (And please, forget about your perceptions about how hard he worked) What were the decisions that he made or did not make that cause you to believe he is a top Manager in the Major League? Did he have a good sense of when to hit and run, when to pull a starting pitcher, when to call a pitch-out, when to steal , who to bat second in the order, when to pinch hit, etc?

Any specific examples of that in games that made a difference?

 

Not that it is that relevant to anything but marketing the Sox, but his post game interviews were truncated and uncomfortable and gave me the impression that he had as much interest as Cutler had in the game when he went on the exercise bike during the playoffs.

 

He did say that he just wanted "to get through the three years." Even though he qualified that I think his words speak about his attitude when he signed the Contract. This is just a job for him, not a passion.

At times it appeared as though he was following directions from Mark Parent rather than leading.

 

As far as AJ, he does have the baseball IQ that Ventura lacks and a whole hell of a lot more personality.

And that is not rant and rave, like Ozzie but it would be a lot more interesting to fans and the media than the smug straight guy routine from Ventura.

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QUOTE (southside_hitman @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 06:01 PM)
Exactly. Ventura never aspired to be a Manager and he doesn't look like he really wants to be out there.

Nobody is suggesting that we neede someone to rant like Ozzie, but I expected more of a baseball strategist, a guy

that was always thinking, and making good decisions before and during games..

 

So let's be specific about Ventura's managerial skills in 2012. (And please, forget about your perceptions about how hard he worked) What were the decisions that he made or did not make that cause you to believe he is a top Manager in the Major League? Did he have a good sense of when to hit and run, when to pull a starting pitcher, when to call a pitch-out, when to steal , who to bat second in the order, when to pinch hit, etc?

Any specific examples of that in games that made a difference?

 

Not that it is that relevant to anything but marketing the Sox, but his post game interviews were truncated and uncomfortable and gave me the impression that he had as much interest as Cutler had in the game when he went on the exercise bike during the playoffs.

 

He did say that he just wanted "to get through the three years." Even though he qualified that I think his words speak about his attitude when he signed the Contract. This is just a job for him, not a passion.

At times it appeared as though he was following directions from Mark Parent rather than leading.

 

As far as AJ, he does have the baseball IQ that Ventura lacks and a whole hell of a lot more personality.

And that is not rant and rave, like Ozzie but it would be a lot more interesting to fans and the media than the smug straight guy routine from Ventura.

 

I personally shrugged off the fact he declined an extension. Robin struck it rich as a player, didn't he? It's not like he needs the cash and he said he wanted to take care of his coaching staff in the article, which is pretty damn noble. It seems (to me) he feels comfortable in his own skin and will let this year play out and if he's enjoying baseball still and the Sox brass likes him, I bet you he'll sign a sizeable extension. If the Sox have a s***ty year, well you could say he blew it not taking the year when it was offered, but for some reason I don't see it that way.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 06:02 PM)
OK, that is just funny. I literally couldn't read it without laughing.

Seriously, that post was all sorts of fail.

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QUOTE (southside_hitman @ Feb 14, 2013 -> 06:01 PM)
Exactly. Ventura never aspired to be a Manager and he doesn't look like he really wants to be out there.

Nobody is suggesting that we neede someone to rant like Ozzie, but I expected more of a baseball strategist, a guy

that was always thinking, and making good decisions before and during games..

 

Because every rookie manager is perfect, a strategist, making great decisions 100% of the time. Please. Considering he was a rookie manager, I'd say he did just fine. There are some areas he needs to work on, but he seemed to improve throughout the year.

 

(And please, forget about your perceptions about how hard he worked)

 

(And please, forget about your perceptions of Frank Thomas's power, because even though it was obviously there, it hurts my argument for you to use it)

 

What were the decisions that he made or did not make that cause you to believe he is a top Manager in the Major League?

 

September 15th. Sox were up 5-2 going to the bottom of the 9th at Target Field. Ventura went with Reed because he is the closer. Reed allowed the first 3 runners on base. Ventura yanked him (something Ozzie did NOT do with Jenks in 2010) and brought in Thornton. Thornton induced a double play and then threw another out to record the save.

 

Did he have a good sense of when to hit and run

when to pull a starting pitcher

when to call a pitch-out

when to steal

who to bat second in the order

when to pinch hit, etc?

 

Hit and run is one of the stupidest plays in the MLB. It works like you want 15% of the time, gives up an out 35% of the time, generally forces the hitter to swing at a bad pitch, and a lot of times ends up with a LIDP.

Yes

Yes

Yes (despite having what I would argue was a slower team, the White Sox went 109 for 152 in SBs in 2011 for a 71.7% conversion rate, which is likely productive in today's reduced offensive environment. The Sox went 81/134 in 2011, which means they had fewer stolen bases and more times caught stealing)

Yes (Youk was perfect)

Yes

 

 

Any specific examples of that in games that made a difference?

 

How about every f***ing game when he made a good lineup as opposed to hitting a .725 singles hitting catcher cleanup?

 

Not that it is that relevant to anything but marketing the Sox, but his post game interviews were truncated and uncomfortable and gave me the impression that he had as much interest as Cutler had in the game when he went on the exercise bike during the playoffs.

 

He's a boring guy, so he must not care about winning or doing his job well. Or maybe he just hates dealing with the media.

 

I do love that you say "not that it matters" and then use it to try and condemn him. It doesn't matter...why bring it up?

 

He did say that he just wanted "to get through the three years." Even though he qualified that I think his words speak about his attitude when he signed the Contract. This is just a job for him, not a passion.

 

EVEN THOUGH HE QUALIFIED THAT. Jesus, you are arguing against yourself.

 

Oh, and yes, this game that he played for 16 years at the highest level, he has no passion for. You are ridiculous with your assertions and assumptions. You are making conjectures based on your personal feelings and you have no proof. Instead of trying to present your opinion as fact, you could have saved both of us a lot of time and simply said "I do not like Ventura as manager."

 

At times it appeared as though he was following directions from Mark Parent rather than leading.

 

Give me a f***ing break. Links? Proof? Actual quotes from the game where Mark Parent is ordering Ventura around like his little b****? If you weren't so close that you could smell their armpits, then you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

As far as AJ, he does have the baseball IQ that Ventura lacks and a whole hell of a lot more personality.

And that is not rant and rave, like Ozzie but it would be a lot more interesting to fans and the media than the smug straight guy routine from Ventura.

 

And we've come full circle. The Sox should fire Robin Ventura, bring Ozzie back, and have Pierzynski be his bench coach.

 

----

 

I'm glad there is a competent front office staff in place.

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Feb 15, 2013 -> 09:37 AM)
You know what we need here? Fire and Passion

 

Aaron f***ing Rowand. He can be the chewing tobacco and wall crashing specialist.

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"Because every rookie manager is perfect, a strategist, making great decisions 100% of the time. Please. Considering he was a rookie manager, I'd say he did just fine. There are some areas he needs to work on, but he seemed to improve throughout the year."

 

No one said he was expected to be perfect. How did he improve through the year? You mean you sensed improvement by Ventura during the latter part of the season when the Sox folded?

 

"September 15th. Sox were up 5-2 going to the bottom of the 9th at Target Field. Ventura went with Reed because he is the closer. Reed allowed the first 3 runners on base. Ventura yanked him (something Ozzie did NOT do with Jenks in 2010) and brought in Thornton. Thornton induced a double play and then threw another out to record the save."

 

So you give credit to Ventura for waiting until the bases are loaded to yank a Reed? LOL!

You cite one game out of 160 and it proves NOTHING. His deceision with who to bring on were according to a script and seldom deviated, just like his line-ups. Ventura has a problem with showing emotion when it would be beneficial to players in a late inning rally or in holding a team from scoring in late innings by encouraging a pitcher.

How about Ozzie yanking Jenks in Game 2 of the World Series? After we won on Pods homer, Ozzie went up to Bobby and with a slap of encouragement on his back told him to be ready for the next game.

 

"How about every f***ing game when he made a good lineup as opposed to hitting a .725 singles hitting catcher cleanup?"

 

How about the way he did nothing to change the line-up as the Sox slid in the standings?

 

"He's a boring guy, so he must not care about winning or doing his job well. Or maybe he just hates dealing with the media.

I do love that you say "not that it matters" and then use it to try and condemn him. It doesn't matter...why bring it up? "

 

His post game performance does not matter to what happened in the game but it does matter to the fans, to the media and to the PR of the team. I never said he did not care about winning. You have a very odd way of debating...misquoting and paraphrasing, creating straw arguments and arguing with yourself.

 

"EVEN THOUGH HE QUALIFIED THAT. Jesus, you are arguing against yourself."

No, Jesus. I took issue with what he said about just getting through the three year Contract in the context of

his later qualifications and in the context of his refusal to agree to an extension offered to him by the White Sox.

 

"Oh, and yes, this game that he played for 16 years at the highest level, he has no passion for. You are ridiculous with your assertions and assumptions. You are making conjectures based on your personal feelings and you have no proof. Instead of trying to present your opinion as fact, you could have saved both of us a lot of time and simply said "I do not like Ventura as manager."

 

I have no problem at all in stating categorically that Ventura played for 16 years and that now, I do not think that Ventura is a good Manager. I actually went further now that he has declined to extension Offer and put forth a suggestion for a Manegr to succeed him.

 

 

<i>Give me a f***ing break. Links? Proof? Actual quotes from the game where Mark Parent is ordering Ventura around like his little b****? If you weren't so close that you could smell their armpits, then you have no idea what you are talking about.</i>

 

I watched probably 150 games out of the 160 at home or at the Park. It was painfully apparent that Ventura was gaining advice from Parent during games over and again just prior to important decisions being made. Yes, a bench coach is supposed to offer his opinio when asked, but Parent was almost up Ventura's azz,,,,,so much so that it aeemd that Ventura lacked confidence to make decisions on his own.

"And we've come full circle. The Sox should fire Robin Ventura, bring Ozzie back, and have Pierzynski be his bench coach."

Again, you are making things up and arguing with yourself. What I stated was based on Ventura's performance last season, the fact that Ventura declined the Sox offer to extend him, and the sense I got from reading his comments about not doing this job forever, just getting through his Contract, etc.. Given all that I would at least begin to think about a possible replacement. Very high on that list would be AJ.

 

Ventura, by his own words is not going to be here for too long no matter what. I am concerned that if we have a losing season in 2013 that Ventura may be a lame duck the following season with no intention of staying here.

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I honestly can't remember the last time hearing a manager turned down an extension. Can any of you?

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Someone has to tee it up and someone has to make it fly. This has been just a terrific thread.

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QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 16, 2013 -> 08:30 AM)
Someone has to tee it up and someone has to make it fly. This has been just a terrific thread.

 

Soxtalk is the original home of terrific

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Here's a guy that could easily be thinking I only want to manage when I have the fire and desire to do so. I don't want to just be collecting a paycheck. We criticize guys for taking the cash, then criticize when they don't. :lol:

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Ventura deserves credit for getting the Sox to contend, but his performance in August and September left a lot to be desired. Ignoring offensive struggles, his attitude seemed to be one of "why change anything we're in first place?" as Detroit kept inching closer and closer. His bullpen usage in September was curious too.

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First, I want to apologize if I offend anyone on this thread with my opinion about Ventura, a great individual and a beloved member of the White Sox as well as our current Manager. However, the news of Ventura declining an offer to extend by the White Sox and then some of his comments caused me to return to some of the concerns I had when Kenny signed him.

At that time it seemed like Ventura was a reluctant warrior, a wealthy guy who was content living in California, laying in the sunshine and drifting with the tide. I considered the possibility that maybe Kenny just tried too hard to get Robin to agree to Manage. I was also concerned about hiring someone for a job that he never aspired to.

 

In my last post I stated:

<i>Ventura, by his own words is not going to be here for too long no matter what. I am concerned that if we have a losing season in 2013 that Ventura may be a lame duck the following season with no intention of staying here. </i>

 

Again, I apologize for seeming negative about our chances this season but it is possible that we end up lower than some of us expect in the standings. At that point there might be a larger chorus of Sox fans questioning management and Robin himself. So what would Robin do at that point with the remaining year on bis Contract? Would he ask the Sox for the extension he just refused or would he play out the last season of his Contract as a lame duck? I'm asking. And I believe that this scenario must have been considered by Sox management when they offered Robin the extension. In short, they wanted to avoid the possibility that things would get to that point after just two years.

Edited by southside_hitman

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QUOTE (southside_hitman @ Feb 16, 2013 -> 12:42 PM)
First, I want to apologize if I offend anyone on this thread with my opinion about Ventura, a great individual and a beloved member of the White Sox as well as our current Manager. However, the news of Ventura declining an offer to extend by the White Sox and then some of his comments caused me to return to some of the concerns I had when Kenny signed him.

At that time it seemed like Ventura was a reluctant warrior, a wealthy guy who was content living in California, laying in the sunshine and drifting with the tide. I considered the possibility that maybe Kenny just tried too hard to get Robin to agree to Manage. I was also concerned about hiring someone for a job that he never aspired to.

 

In my last post I stated:

Ventura, by his own words is not going to be here for too long no matter what. I am concerned that if we have a losing season in 2013 that Ventura may be a lame duck the following season with no intention of staying here.

 

Again, I apologize for seeming negative about our chances this season but it is possible that we end up lower than some of us expect in the standings. At that point there might be a larger chorus of Sox fans questioning management and Robin himself. So what would Robin do at that point with the remaining year on bis Contract? Would he ask the Sox for the extension he just refused or would he play out the last season of his Contract as a lame duck? I'm asking. And I believe that this scenario must have been considered by Sox management when they offered Robin the extension. In short, they wanted to avoid the possibility that things would get to that point after just two years.

Every one of your points here strikes me as somewhat reasonable, and possibly worth considering. Here's the part where you demolished your own argument:

I watched probably 150 games out of the 160 at home or at the Park. It was painfully apparent that Ventura was gaining advice from Parent during games over and again just prior to important decisions being made. Yes, a bench coach is supposed to offer his opinio when asked, but Parent was almost up Ventura's azz,,,,,so much so that it aeemd that Ventura lacked confidence to make decisions on his own.
Not only did it not shine any dignity on you given your choice of language, but despite being asked for examples, you couldn't provide any, it's just how you feel about them.

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we seriously need some real baseball to discuss because some of the ish here is getting painfully ridiculous.

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Would you feel better if he said I'm a great manager and will only get better. In two years, when this contract runs out, I'm going to be a free agent and demand being the highest paid manager out there? :huh

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QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 17, 2013 -> 01:06 PM)
Would you feel better if he said I'm a great manager and will only get better. In two years, when this contract runs out, I'm going to be a free agent and demand being the highest paid manager out there? :huh

 

No no no, then he would be greedy and we would have to get rid of him now before the situation escalates

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I wonder why the Contract extension by the Sox to Ventura was made public in the first place and as I commented on earlier,

why Ventura responded to it as he did. Whatever the reasons, we now know that Ventura declined and decided to keep his options open. That places Ventura's performance as Manager this season firmly in the spotlight now that the honeymoon is over.

I hope we win the Division and he is in a stronger position to negotiate a new Contract, should he then decide to stay in Chicago.

 

 

 

 

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QUOTE (southside_hitman @ Feb 21, 2013 -> 07:44 AM)
I wonder why the Contract extension by the Sox to Ventura was made public in the first place and as I commented on earlier,

why Ventura responded to it as he did. Whatever the reasons, we now know that Ventura declined and decided to keep his options open. That places Ventura's performance as Manager this season firmly in the spotlight now that the honeymoon is over.

I hope we win the Division and he is in a stronger position to negotiate a new Contract, should he then decide to stay in Chicago.

 

It wasn't really made public by the team. Someone found out about it, and broadcast it. Only after that was it confirmed in public. I doubt it was ever supposed to get out.

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