Chicago White Sox Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 05:26 PM) Why is that so great? Seriously, outside of his first year in the PCL (an .842 OPS which isn't that good for the league), he's done nothing to suggest he should be a starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 05:04 PM) His minor league track record. Right, because a decent minor league track record is somehow more important than a decent major league track record (like Alexei's). We're talking about guys who play in Major League Baseball here right? Edited March 9, 2013 by chw42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 09:19 AM) I don't care about his WAR. Put Sanchez at SS, and you would get a similar defense-enhanced WAR. Big deal. You should at least see what it is before you call his contract the worst on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Career minor league OPS: Gillaspie .777 Morel .786 And Morel's would have been much higher had he not put up a .492 OPS in AAA this past season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 06:42 PM) Career minor league OPS: Gillaspie .777 Morel .786 And Morel's would have been much higher had he not put up a .492 OPS in AAA this past season. Set.Game.Match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy the Clown Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Right, because a decent minor league track record is somehow more important than a decent major league track record (like Alexei's). We're talking about guys who play in Major League Baseball here right? You're right, MLE's mean nothing. Sparse ABs earned in September tell us everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy the Clown Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Career minor league OPS: Gillaspie .777 Morel .786 And Morel's would have been much higher had he not put up a .492 OPS in AAA this past season. Still miles better than 2012 Lexi. Game, set, whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy the Clown Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 You should at least see what it is before you call his contract the worst on the team. I can read fangraphs too. Thanks though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 08:01 PM) Set.Game.Match. Except who's to say that we've ever seen a 100% healthy Brent Morel? These arguments are a bit reminiscent of the Dan Johnson ones last year...and yet he was quite successful in his brief stint with us, when used correctly. Ross Gload's another that comes to mind. Sometimes a player can thrive in a new environment...and he was obviously a fairly high draft pick, so someone believed in him and felt convinced he could make an impact at the big league level. That's not to say I would 1) trade Ramirez or 2) give significant playing time to Gillaspie in April. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 08:19 PM) Still miles better than 2012 Lexi. Game, set, whatever. What are you talking about? In what world is Gillaspie playing SS? In what world are minor league OPS's 100% indicative of future MLB performance? There's hundreds of thousands of guys who put up 800+ OPS numbers in the minors and had no prayer of playing in the majors. Nobody knows what Ramirez will do in 2013, but he had a range or parameter of statistics that make it more predictable. By your argument, we should have given AJ Pierzynski $10 million because of his 2012 season, or we should be expecting DeAza to continue to decline in OPS because he slid from 2011 to 2012. Nobody can say with any certainty what's going to happen. Half of this site would probably bet Alex Rios will have a 750+ OPS in 2013, the other half would be convinced he's going to be a sub 650 guy again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy the Clown Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 What are you talking about? In what world is Gillaspie playing SS? In what world are minor league OPS's 100% indicative of future MLB performance? I didn't suggest that Gillaspie play SS. Read my earlier post in this thread. I don't know what Gillaspie would hit with extended playing time, but I'm confident his OBP would crack .290 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 09:24 AM) Even Sanchez's minor league numbers aren't really any better. Why pay Ramirez $26M over the next 3 years when they aren't going to the postseason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 07:20 PM) I can read fangraphs too. Thanks though. No, see what it is as in how many WAR he had in 2012. I'm not saying you don't know what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 08:41 PM) Why pay Ramirez $26M over the next 3 years when they aren't going to the postseason? Why pay anyone $26M over the next 3 years when they aren't going to the postseason? See, with that kind of pessimistic attitude, you might as well just end life as we know it right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Mar 7, 2013 -> 09:36 PM) Congrats your post was so ignorant it compelled me to make my first post here in years. The value of a win is about $4 million. The Sox are going to be paying Ramirez 26.5 million over the next 3 years with an AAV of 8.9 million. Even with his career worst year at the plate last year due to the paucity of legit MLB caliber shortstops and his solid glove, bWAR had Ramirez for 2.2 wins and fWAR had him down for 1.8. That means he was basically worth his salary (note he only made 7 million in 2012). I will concede that the arc of Ramirez's career is not promising, but thanks to regression to the mean all the projection systems have Ramirez somewhere around a wOBA of .300, which would add about half a win over his 2012 numbers -- assuming his glove grades out about the same. It's probably fair to project Ramirez for about 7 WAR over the next 3 seasons -- at 4 million per win he'll be making...about exactly what he "should be". The idea that Ramirez's contract is some albatross hanging over the Sox is ludicrous. You'd rather rush a 20 year old to the bigs (and starting his arb clock no less) that projects a worse WAR just so you can jettison a 2 WAR player (aka a solid starter) that is being paid a fair salary. I've held back, but seriously? GTFO with such non-sense. You must be one of great patience to be silence among this cesspool of baseball stupidity. When did this Ramirez stuff get started? I'm going to assume it's because he didn't belt 72 HRs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 12:33 PM) What I don't understand is you want to get rid of Ramirez because you don't think he's worth his salary, then put a rookie at SS, and then spend money signing Grady Sizemore, who hasn't been good or healthy in 4 years, and I'm thinking the lone reason is he is left handed. How does that improve the team in 2013? Many of these trade ideas seem to be helping other teams instead of the Sox. Sanchez might be a good player one day, but making him the everyday SS now would probably have one pining for Ramirez in a month. Not to mention, Ramirez' trade value is probably at a low right now. Some of these ideas make Al Davis and Steve Ballmer look like a genius. Edited March 9, 2013 by kitekrazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 08:41 PM) Why pay Ramirez $26M over the next 3 years when they aren't going to the postseason? For the love of god, can you please stop speaking in absolutes? Also, I don't understand why you think it's so far-fetched we make the playoffs. If Danks is healthy, which is looking likely so far, then our rotation can be one of the best in baseball. Our bullpen also has the potential to be one of the best in baseball. Plus our defense was one of the best in baseball last year and has arguably gotten better. Yes, our offense is a question mark, but that doesn't mean it's going to bad next year. If the pitching holds up, which is a concern for every team, we have a decent chance at making the playoffs next year. I guess I can't comprehend why you are so negative about the Sox. Do you think our starters are going to break down? You can't really be denying their talent right? Look around the league, few teams have rotations as talented as ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 09:07 PM) You must be one of great patience to be silence among this cesspool of baseball stupidity. When did this Ramirez stuff get started? I'm going to assume it's because he didn't belt 72 HRs. Ramirez has gotten progressively worse offensively to the point where he put up a lower OPS than the much-maligned (and deserved so) Beckham last year. That's pretty amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Why did the 2006 Minnesota Twins and Detroit Tigers even bother to show up after the White Sox went 11-1 in the post-season and added Javy to a rotation where Brandon McCarthy was on the outside looking in? These projected dynasties only last as long as Verlander and Scherzer's arms/shoulders/elbows stay attached, Prince doesn't balloon up to 350 and Miggy doesn't have a relapse with the alcohol demons. Things are never as gloomy nor as bright as they seem in baseball. (I feel bad being forced into an optimistic viewpoint on 2013, haha....Dick Allen is probably waiting in the weeds with "why are you (all) even White Sox fans if you feel so gloomy and depressed and negative about the team's chances of returning to post-season again...?" Better to support the Angels, perhaps. Or the dreaded Cubs, because they don't have to worry about revenues and capping payroll. Or do they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 09:07 PM) You must be one of great patience to be silence among this cesspool of baseball stupidity. When did this Ramirez stuff get started? I'm going to assume it's because he didn't belt 72 HRs. It's the epitome of b****ing just to b****. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) Alexei Ramirez has been a consistent 700ish OPS guy his entire career before last season. In four of his seasons, he was between 727 and 792. Very predictable, offensively as well as defensively. (Maybe we can attribute the falloff to a new hitting coach, yes??) If you go by the theory of decline, then the team's totally screwed because Rios, Dunn and Konerko are all one year older, right? But then how do you explain AJ's 2012 season? Or Rios? Simply steroids accusations? Or Paulie dominating baseball for much of 2010 and 2011 in his mid 30's? Why does someone with an unathletic body like Konerko or AJ NOT decline.....whereas Alexei Ramirez is automatically doomed to end up like Angel Berroa or Carlos Febles? Edited March 9, 2013 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 09:25 PM) For the love of god, can you please stop speaking in absolutes? Also, I don't understand why you think it's so far-fetched we make the playoffs. If Danks is healthy, which is looking likely so far, then our rotation can be one of the best in baseball. Our bullpen also has the potential to be one of the best in baseball. Plus our defense was one of the best in baseball last year and has arguably gotten better. Yes, our offense is a question mark, but that doesn't mean it's going to bad next year. If the pitching holds up, which is a concern for every team, we have a decent chance at making the playoffs next year. I guess I can't comprehend why you are so negative about the Sox. Do you think our starters are going to break down? You can't really be denying their talent right? Look around the league, few teams have rotations as talented as ours. Last year I said they would contend for the division. I feel differently this year primarily because of the workloads on Sale and Peavy last year, an offense that's core is a year older, and a division where the Royals and Indians have improved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) We have zero incentive to trade Alexei Ramirez today. Or tmrw. 3-4 months from now, sure, maybe....same with anyone on our roster like Rios or Konerko, if the price is right. Carlos Sanchez, at his best, will be more of a complementary piece, an Iguchi with more speed and less power. We're not talking 2008/2009 Gordon Beckham here. If they're wrong about Keppinger, Beckham, Viciedo and Flowers, it won't matter anyway..we will have no choice but to rebuild (the line-up, but most importantly, not the pitching staff), but we've definitely go the pieces to fix the outfield in the next 2-3 years. And there's a danger to having a 2B/SS/3B at USCF where perhaps those three positions will give you no more than 20 homers combined. If you're going to have two slick fielding middle infielders, then you need some power from 3B, not just OBP. Plus, Ramirez consistently improved hitting-wise throughout the season. If he was getting old, then wouldn't he start out hot and fade the entire second half? The entire offense choked/collapsed in September, are they all done, too, like Mr. Dunn? Ramirez OPS April 498 (usual cold start) May 581 June 678 July 806 (typical hot/warm weather Alexei) Aug 801 (see above) SEP 562 (entire offense collapses/chokes) Edited March 9, 2013 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 09:42 PM) Last year I said they would contend for the division. You always say this, but you were talking out of both sides of your mouth. Saying "I think they will contend" simultaneously saying "I think we should trade everyone and build towards 2015" isn't believing the first statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Mar 8, 2013 -> 10:17 PM) You always say this, but you were talking out of both sides of your mouth. Saying "I think they will contend" simultaneously saying "I think we should trade everyone and build towards 2015" isn't believing the first statement. Proof? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.