VAfan Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I live in Virginia, hence my screen name, so I don't get to watch that many Sox games. We get WGN here, but I don't sign up for anything more. I also take my son to at least one Sox game every year, either in Washington, or Baltimore. (He gets someone to toss him a batting practice ball and then gets guys to sign. This time, he got Konerko, Sale, Viciedo, and Sanchez. Pretty good haul.) I went to Thursday's game in DC, then watched last night's game in Cleveland on WGN. Both games, in my opinion, were "lost" by Robin Ventura's bad game management decisions. Yes, the players play and win or lose the games, but Ventura's decisions put the team in much worse shape than it might have been with different decisions. WASHINGTON GAME 4th inning, game tied 3-3. Axelrod above 90 pitches already, and it's lucky the Nats only have 3 runs. Dan Haren on third, Werth on first. Two outs. Bryce Harper up. In this situation, with Santiago essentially ready in the pen (and if he wasn't ready, he should have been, since he warmed up in the bottom of the third when Washington scored 2 runs), AXELROD HAS TO BE LIFTED FOR SANTIAGO. Axelrod was spent, and the best Washington hitter - a lefty - is up. Game is tied. What happens when Ventura leaves Axelrod in? Wild pitch - 4-3. Intentional walk. Double. 6-3. Game over. After Zimmerman hits the game-winning double, Santiago comes in and blows away LaRoche on three pitches. Sox lose 7-4, the difference being the 3 runs given up when Axelrod was not replaced. CLEVELAND GAME 8th inning, game tied 0-0. Connor Gillaspie hits a leadoff double. Next guy up is Ramirez, who has one of the 5 hits off Masterson. After Ramirez you have AUTO-OUT Gimenez, and then DeAza. In this situation, with three batters to try to bring in Gillaspie, your best RBI guy is Ramirez -- BY FAR. He's also had a single on the night. So what does Ventura do? He asks Ramirez to BUNT!???? This is a HORRIBLE decision. First, Ramirez is a horrible bunter. I've seen him bunt into a triple play. Second, as mentioned above, Ramirez is the Sox best chance of getting a hit to bring Gillaspie home. What happens? Ramirez pops the bunt up to the catcher, one out. Gimenez grounds to second, easy out. DeAza is out, threat over. Even if Ramirez is successful bunting Gillaspie over, a pulled in infield would have prevented Gimenez's weak grounder from scoring Gillaspie. So a successful bunt was not the answer here. Having Ramirez swing away was the correct move. But that wasn't the only error Ventura made. The night before, Jesse Crain pitched the 8th in Washington. He gave up multiple hits and an insurance run to Washington. Crain IMHO is no longer a reliable set up guy in a tight game, any more than Matt Thornton is. I consider these vets to be the weak links in the Sox pen, not our strengths. What does Crain do? Give up the winning run to Cleveland. But THAT's not all. Ventura also made the wrong call about who to pitch to in the bottom of the 9th. With Bourn on 3rd and two outs, Ventura had Crain pitch around Jason Kipnis and pitch to Nick Swisher. Kipnis is hitting .125 on the year, while Swisher is hitting .258. And it's not as if this is just some early season aberration. Kipnis has one full year in the majors, while Swisher is THE veteran on Cleveland. Plus, as a former Sox player, Swisher is the most motivated guy in this situation. It's just insane to pitch around Kipnis and let Swisher beat us. TWO GAMES. TWO SOX LOSSES. 4 BAD MANAGERIAL MOVES. Recap: 1. Left in Axelrod when he was toast and Santiago was ready. Cost 3 runs. 2. Had Ramirez bunt with man on second and no one out in 8th inning of 0-0 game. Gimenez on deck. Scoring chance blown. 3. Had Jesse Crain start the bottom of the 9th of 0-0 game with everyone but Thornton available. 4. Had Jesse Crain pitch around Jason Kipnis to face Nick Swisher with two outs and winning run at 3rd. Admittedly a small sample size, those these aren't my only beefs. I'd add in the decision to have Dunn hit ahead of Konerko (on another thread) as another of my beefs with Ventura. I'm not calling for Ventura's head here. There was a lot of stability and sense of calm he brought to the team that helped us win last year. I just wish he'd make better moves. What do you think? Is Ventura a good game manager? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 1= Ventura had the pen go deep in the last three games, and didn't want to go to the pen early 2= The Sox hadn't been getting hits off of Masterson, and didn't want to have to string 3 or 4 straight hits together to score a run. 3= Crain is your top right handed reliever. Who else do you trust in a tie game? 4= Decisions like that are usually relievers choice for who they are comfortable pitching against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 04:22 PM) 1= Ventura had the pen go deep in the last three games, and didn't want to go to the pen early It's pretty simple, don't have your long reliever pitch an inning the night before your weakest starter is going the next day against a top offense. Also, what's the point of having 3 lefties in the bullpen if you're not going to take advantage of match-ups. Hawk and Stone have a better feel for the Sox personnel so far it seems than the coaching staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 11:22 AM) 1= Ventura had the pen go deep in the last three games, and didn't want to go to the pen early 2= The Sox hadn't been getting hits off of Masterson, and didn't want to have to string 3 or 4 straight hits together to score a run. 3= Crain is your top right handed reliever. Who else do you trust in a tie game? 4= Decisions like that are usually relievers choice for who they are comfortable pitching against. #2 was bad. Alexei just isn't good at bunting for a sacrifice. This is the guy who sacrificed into a triple play. When you ask alexei to sacrifice, there's a 50/50 chance he's going to pop it up. It's just not a good move, and it's just one of those things a manager needs to know about h is players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 04:22 PM) 2= The Sox hadn't been getting hits off of Masterson, and didn't want to have to string 3 or 4 straight hits together to score a run. It's not like Masterson is a fly ball pitcher that's easy to hit a sac fly against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 09:22 AM) 1= Ventura had the pen go deep in the last three games, and didn't want to go to the pen early 2= The Sox hadn't been getting hits off of Masterson, and didn't want to have to string 3 or 4 straight hits together to score a run. 3= Crain is your top right handed reliever. Who else do you trust in a tie game? 4= Decisions like that are usually relievers choice for who they are comfortable pitching against. 2 Sinker/slider/heavy ball pitcher on a tremendously cold day in CLE...the last guy you want to get to produce a SAC FLY is Gimenez. This is the same guy who has only surrendered one ER so far in like 20 innings and beaten the last two CY YOUNG award winners in back-to-back starts, yet career minor leaguer Hector Gimenez is your best bet to drive in the run? THAT'S CRAZY. 3 Crain might be your highest paid RH reliever, but if he was the best, why was Ventura favoring Nathan Jones earlier in the season? Why did we sign Lindstrom, again? I'd argue that ANY of those three guys are/were meant to be "equal" options who would basically be interchangeable this season, based on injuries and who's hot/who's not. 4 Kipnis has been ice cold this season. They have three lefties in the bullpen for a reason. If you can't trust Donnie Veal to come in and get the final out, to the point where you have Crain facing a crafty/wily veteran with something to prove to his new fans and against his hated former team, then I just don't know what to say....the Indians' announcers basically said it over and over, they brought Swisher in to be the centerpiece of marketing for the "new" Indians this year. Why tempt fate when Veal/Kipnis SHOULD be a much better match-up on paper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 I don't think Ventura is a good game manager, but that's not what this team needs at this point. They are more rebuilding than contending and last year Ventura showed he is able to create an atmosphere that allows players to play to their potential. Figuring out what they have is goal #1 this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 One thing's for sure, he's an awful manager when the rosters open up in September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 10:32 AM) #2 was bad. Alexei just isn't good at bunting for a sacrifice. This is the guy who sacrificed into a triple play. When you ask alexei to sacrifice, there's a 50/50 chance he's going to pop it up. It's just not a good move, and it's just one of those things a manager needs to know about h is players. Ozzie used to have Alexei sacrifice bunt too, every time I predicted the worst and was usually right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 12:00 PM) Ozzie used to have Alexei sacrifice bunt too, every time I predicted the worst and was usually right. I think the logic is "He doesn't hit 40 home runs, so obviously he's a good bunter". He's just not. You just can't have him do it. He has about the same chance of a solid single as he does of bunting into a double play in that situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 10:31 AM) It's pretty simple, don't have your long reliever pitch an inning the night before your weakest starter is going the next day against a top offense. Also, what's the point of having 3 lefties in the bullpen if you're not going to take advantage of match-ups. Hawk and Stone have a better feel for the Sox personnel so far it seems than the coaching staff. He had no choice but to use Santiago. All of the short relievers had gotten plenty of time over the past few days and he was trying to save the pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 11:01 AM) I think the logic is "He doesn't hit 40 home runs, so obviously he's a good bunter". He's just not. You just can't have him do it. He has about the same chance of a solid single as he does of bunting into a double play in that situation. Do we know for sure that Ramirez was told to bunt? Maybe he was told get the runner over however you choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Why would Ramirez willingly choose something he's TERRIBLE at and has ZERO confidence in doing?? He's been a good RBI guy for most of his career...and clutch, do you really think he would willingly give up the chance to win the game in order to leave it up to Hector Gimenez? Hmmmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 The players haven't been executing at all. That's the only reason this thread exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 02:05 PM) The players haven't been executing at all. That's the only reason this thread exists. Asking Alexei Ramirez to sacrifice bunt is putting him in a position to fail and then complaining about it when he fails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 01:06 PM) Asking Alexei Ramirez to sacrifice bunt is putting him in a position to fail and then complaining about it when he fails. Ramirez doesn't hit the ball to the right side all that well either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 02:18 PM) Ramirez doesn't hit the ball to the right side all that well either. If he's that bad at everything for that situation, then pinch hit Angel Sanchez for crying out loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 01:23 PM) If he's that bad at everything for that situation, then pinch hit Angel Sanchez for crying out loud. Would you have done that? I wouldn't have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 02:26 PM) Would you have done that? I wouldn't have. No, I'd have told him to swing away. He already had a real good looking single up the middle on the day. A single scores that run. But if the manager is going to insist on the sacrifice, I'd rather have seen Sanchez try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 01:05 PM) The players haven't been executing at all. That's the only reason this thread exists. This thread easily could have been started (and I think there were similar threads) last year. So false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 01:50 PM) This thread easily could have been started (and I think there were similar threads) last year. So false. This thread could exist every year for every team in every sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 01:57 PM) This thread could exist every year for every team in every sport. I think you missed the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 03:53 PM) I don't think Ventura is a good game manager, but that's not what this team needs at this point. They are more rebuilding than contending and last year Ventura showed he is able to create an atmosphere that allows players to play to their potential. Figuring out what they have is goal #1 this year. I love this post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 Of course he isn't. What bonehead franchise in any collegiate or professional sport would put some one in charge with no previous experience? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted April 13, 2013 Share Posted April 13, 2013 (edited) QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Apr 13, 2013 -> 01:30 PM) Of course he isn't. What bonehead franchise in any collegiate or professional sport would put some one in charge with no previous experience? The World Champion Cardinals? As long as they're not looking for him to manage their real estate investments... Don "The Bear" Haskins at Texas Western? Edited April 13, 2013 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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