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caulfield12

The next month, and possible "false positives"

What should Hahn do?  

28 members have voted

  1. 1. Without much flexibility, should we...

    • Stand pat and go with the team as is
      7
    • Add another reliever to bridge to the back of the pen
      8
    • Replace Flowers/Gimenez with a veteran
      4
    • Trade Erik Johnson to fix problems 2/3
      0
    • Only take on players that add to payroll but not give up talent
      9
    • Sell off Rios, Peavy, Crain, Ramirez and Lindstrom,dump Thornton's salary
      6
    • Improve the bench, the team wore down in 2nd half last year
      0


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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 27, 2013 -> 07:34 AM)
You mention 2 names often, I haven't kept up with them, but how have Hudson and Santos been the last couple of seasons? How would keeping them around hve improved the chances for last year and this?

 

 

Trading 1 1/2 seasons for 6 seasons is never a good idea, unless you make the playoffs.

 

It's what the Royals will discover soon enough with the Wil Myers trade.

 

FWIW, Daniel Hudson is expected back in late June/early July. TJ is not a death warrant. Lots of pitchers are actually better when they come back...at least in the 2nd year. I guarantee having Sale-Peavy-Danks-Quintana-Axelrod-Santiago-Hudson would have given this team the needed flexibility to make a trade to improve the catching spot or bullpen.

 

 

And yeah, you could argue that AJ Pierzynski wasn't a wise re-sign because he got hurt too, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have had a back-up plan in place at the very least.

 

 

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:34 AM)
You mention 2 names often, I haven't kept up with them, but how have Hudson and Santos been the last couple of seasons? How would keeping them around hve improved the chances for last year and this?

 

I am sure the 45 innings Hudson pitched last year with the Omogrosso-like ERA would have blown us right past the Tigers. The Hudson injury doesn't make that trade good, it was still a dumb trade, but I am not sure why anyone is lamenting the loss of Hudson like it is going to help us now. Even if he does come back this year the rest of the year is a throwaway, so he MIGHT be decent again in 2014. If all goes to plan by then we will have a low payroll with a roster full of fringy prospects and bad veterans, so we wouldn't have needed Hudson anyways.

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QUOTE (hawksfan61 @ May 27, 2013 -> 07:39 AM)
Who cares what the Sox record was against the Royals last year? Records against teams from previous years have no impact on our performance against them this year, you know this right?

 

The Royals probably won't play .318 ball the rest of the year, but they sure are playing it now and its not because of Ned Yost, its because their beloved prospects for the most part can't hit major league pitching. I know this is going to come as a surprise to some, but Top 100 prospects do not all turn out to be all stars, and the Royals have a handful of them on their roster right now.

 

As far as the Twins go......who cares? Their team is horrible this year, was horrible the last two years, and will probably suck for two years after this. If the Sox has Mauer on the books at 23 per until he was 35 years old a lot of people on this board would crying and throwing their toys out of the playpen that we didn't trade him five years ago for a boatload of lottery tickets. I won't deny that the Twins have some nice pieces in the minor leagues, but prospects are NEVER a guarantee, and you don't change the long term strategy of your team based on the lottery tickets that a team with 96 and 99 loses the past two years hold.

 

 

I think you might be the ONLY person on this site who assumes we're going to roll over the Royals for the rest of the season...and completely discounts the past.

 

There are usually certain teams we always struggle with, say the Blue Jays on turf, or the Orioles....a decade ago, we constantly went out to Anaheim and Oakland and struggled just to win a single game on a road trip.

 

Those weren't single season anomalies. They were consistently things you could count on, like the White Sox not beating Johan Santana or CC Sabathia.

 

Same thing with beating the Twins down the stretch in the last decade.

 

We didn't even do that in 2008....we got swept big-time and only beat them because of Rick Hahn's son's fortuitous coin flip call.

 

There are certainties like death and taxes. The White Sox struggling against rookie pitchers, against soft-tossing lefties (see Bruce Chen) or almost any journeyman pitcher who relied predominantly on off-speed stuff.

 

 

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 27, 2013 -> 08:40 AM)
Trading 1 1/2 seasons for 6 seasons is never a good idea, unless you make the playoffs.

 

It's what the Royals will discover soon enough with the Wil Myers trade.

 

FWIW, Daniel Hudson is expected back in late June/early July. TJ is not a death warrant. Lots of pitchers are actually better when they come back...at least in the 2nd year. I guarantee having Sale-Peavy-Danks-Quintana-Axelrod-Santiago-Hudson would have given this team the needed flexibility to make a trade to improve the catching spot or bullpen.

 

 

And yeah, you could argue that AJ Pierzynski wasn't a wise re-sign because he got hurt too, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have had a back-up plan in place at the very least.

So you blast a guy for signing a guy who gets hurt, and blast him for trading 2 guys that got hurt. Danks is back. Hudson, not yet.

 

You are being Mitt Romney again. You are using Danks, a signing you blasted as a reason they can get a catcher if they had Hudson, a guy who isn't even pitching yet, and probably won't be anywhere near full tilt this season.

 

The problem with being on both sides in order to look like you have all the answers is that half your answers are wrong no matter what the circumstance.

Edited by Dick Allen

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:47 AM)
I think you might be the ONLY person on this site who assumes we're going to roll over the Royals for the rest of the season...and completely discounts the past.

 

There are usually certain teams we always struggle with, say the Blue Jays on turf, or the Orioles....a decade ago, we constantly went out to Anaheim and Oakland and struggled just to win a single game on a road trip.

 

Those weren't single season anomalies. They were consistently things you could count on, like the White Sox not beating Johan Santana or CC Sabathia.

 

Same thing with beating the Twins down the stretch in the last decade.

 

We didn't even do that in 2008....we got swept big-time and only beat them because of Rick Hahn's son's fortuitous coin flip call.

 

There are certainties like death and taxes. The White Sox struggling against rookie pitchers, against soft-tossing lefties (see Bruce Chen) or almost any journeyman pitcher who relied predominantly on off-speed stuff.

 

Where did I saw we would roll over the Royals? Please show me.

 

You are completely missing my point on the Royals. My point is they are a bad baseball team who will be 10+ games back by the trade deadline comes around, so why are we even talking about them as far as competition for a playoff spot go? If the Sox roll over for the Royals again this year then we won't be making the playoffs again this year, its pretty simple. Time will tell, and every year is a fresh start. All I know is right now the Sox bats have somewhat come alive, the starting pitching has continued to dominate, and we have a leaky bullpen we are going to have to fix at some point. All of that said, I still like our chances better than anyone else in the division not named Detroit.

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QUOTE (hawksfan61 @ May 27, 2013 -> 07:47 AM)
I am sure the 45 innings Hudson pitched last year with the Omogrosso-like ERA would have blown us right past the Tigers. The Hudson injury doesn't make that trade good, it was still a dumb trade, but I am not sure why anyone is lamenting the loss of Hudson like it is going to help us now. Even if he does come back this year the rest of the year is a throwaway, so he MIGHT be decent again in 2014. If all goes to plan by then we will have a low payroll with a roster full of fringy prospects and bad veterans, so we wouldn't have needed Hudson anyways.

 

Whose plan is that?

 

Dick Allen said what good would Hudson do on this year's team. I answered. There are 15-20 teams out there that would trade us a reliever or veteran catcher (or both) for controlling Daniel Hudson's rights for 3+ years.

 

He has 2 years, 117 days so service time accrued, so I'm not 100% sure if it would be 4 or 3 years (and how it works with time on the DL, etc.), but who exactly are we going to be able to trade to improve either the bullpen or catching position at mid-season?

 

 

Wait. Time out. I need to find some good drugs to sustain me through this argument. Doesn't matter that there's the death penalty here in China for that sort of thing, lol. Plus, it's hard to find anyone to preach to on the street corner since 1) nobody believes in God, 2) there are no homeless to minister to and 3) everyone else is either enjoying the nice weather or watching Iron Man 3 in the theatres. If I was preaching, I would also be jailed (thankfully, not executed, just a hard labor/re-education camp in Xinjiang Province).

 

 

 

 

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:53 AM)
Whose plan is that?

Anyone who would describe the Sox going on a run against weaker competition as a "False Positive".

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QUOTE (Tex @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:05 AM)
BTW, do most people consider "Team" to be the 25-man or 40-man rosters? I'vew always considered it the 40 for discussions like this.

 

It seems like, and I really wouldn't mind of someone disprooved or prooved this point, but I can't think of an instant where a mid season trade really made that much of a difference.

The 2011 Cardinals is my example there. They cleared out Rasmus/crap, had everyone here whining about how the Sox coulda had Rasmus, and rode their new bullpen to a world series title.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 27, 2013 -> 07:59 AM)
Anyone who would describe the Sox going on a run against weaker competition as a "False Positive".

 

 

Well, to be more accurate...the false positive is likely to be tearing through the next 27 games and using that as the rationale for gutting more of our prospects for the iffy chances of competing with a flawed team.

 

Let me ask you this Balta. You're one of the minor league aficionados.

 

If you could have a veteran catcher and another reliever (let's say the equivalent of a Joaquin Benoit) for Erik Johnson, Trayce Thompson and Daniel Webb, would you make that deal? If it increased our odds for appearing in the playoffs from 25% to 75%, would you consider it worth making?

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:02 AM)
The 2011 Cardinals is my example there. They cleared out Rasmus/crap, had everyone here whining about how the Sox coulda had Rasmus, and rode their new bullpen to a world series title.

Oh, the same team that traded for Edwin Jackson?

 

 

PICK A SIDE

 

 

BTW, no one is giving you a starring catcher worth anything right now for Daniel Hudson.

Edited by Dick Allen

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 27, 2013 -> 08:02 AM)
The 2011 Cardinals is my example there. They cleared out Rasmus/crap, had everyone here whining about how the Sox coulda had Rasmus, and rode their new bullpen to a world series title.

 

And since that day, even Adam Dunn has looked like Babe Ruth against LHP, compared to Rasmus' struggles.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 27, 2013 -> 10:05 AM)
Well, to be more accurate...the false positive is likely to be tearing through the next 27 games and using that as the rationale for gutting more of our prospects for the iffy chances of competing with a flawed team.

 

Let me ask you this Balta. You're one of the minor league aficionados.

 

If you could have a veteran catcher and another reliever (let's say the equivalent of a Joaquin Benoit) for Erik Johnson, Trayce Thompson and Daniel Webb, would you make that deal? If it increased our odds for appearing in the playoffs from 25% to 75%, would you consider it worth making?

A single guy increasing the Sox playoff chances by 50%? Good lord, when did tetrahydrogestrinone start catching?

 

If there was such an incredible player, yes, I'd dump the franchise for him.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:53 AM)
Whose plan is that?

 

Dick Allen said what good would Hudson do on this year's team. I answered. There are 15-20 teams out there that would trade us a reliever or veteran catcher (or both) for controlling Daniel Hudson's rights for 3+ years.

 

He has 2 years, 117 days so service time accrued, so I'm not 100% sure if it would be 4 or 3 years (and how it works with time on the DL, etc.), but who exactly are we going to be able to trade to improve either the bullpen or catching position at mid-season?

 

 

Wait. Time out. I need to find some good drugs to sustain me through this argument. Doesn't matter that there's the death penalty here in China for that sort of thing, lol. Plus, it's hard to find anyone to preach to on the street corner since 1) nobody believes in God, 2) there are no homeless to minister to and 3) everyone else is either enjoying the nice weather or watching Iron Man 3 in the theatres. If I was preaching, I would also be jailed (thankfully, not executed, just a hard labor/re-education camp in Xinjiang Province).

 

What type of reliever or veteran catcher are you going to get for a guy coming off of a major arm injury? Please name one, because I think you are overstating the market for guys coming off of arm injuries that have not proven they are 100% back, which is the type of asset Hudson would be this year.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 27, 2013 -> 10:05 AM)
Oh, the same team that traded for Edwin Jackson?

 

 

PICK A SIDE

 

 

BTW, no one is giving you a starring catcher worth anything right now for Daniel Hudson.

Yeah, that team traded scraps they didn't want and wound up with pieces that were useful. Pretty remarkable.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:59 AM)
Anyone who would describe the Sox going on a run against weaker competition as a "False Positive".

 

Bingo!

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:02 AM)
The 2011 Cardinals is my example there. They cleared out Rasmus/crap, had everyone here whining about how the Sox coulda had Rasmus, and rode their new bullpen to a world series title.

You blast the White Sox for trading "cost controlled" guys for veterans, then a couple of posts later praise the Cardinals for doing the same thing.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 27, 2013 -> 08:05 AM)
Oh, the same team that traded for Edwin Jackson?

 

 

PICK A SIDE

 

 

BTW, no one is giving you a starring catcher worth anything right now for Daniel Hudson.

 

 

I'm sure we could get Carlos Ruiz and money coming back...and a new lease on life for him with a contending team.

 

No matter what happens, I'll take my chances on that (just like Youkilis last year) over Flowers/Gimenez.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 27, 2013 -> 10:05 AM)
Well, to be more accurate...the false positive is likely to be tearing through the next 27 games and using that as the rationale for gutting more of our prospects for the iffy chances of competing with a flawed team.

 

Let me ask you this Balta. You're one of the minor league aficionados.

 

If you could have a veteran catcher and another reliever (let's say the equivalent of a Joaquin Benoit) for Erik Johnson, Trayce Thompson and Daniel Webb, would you make that deal? If it increased our odds for appearing in the playoffs from 25% to 75%, would you consider it worth making?

 

I thought our system was hot garbage, so why are people worried about trading anything that is currently in it outside a guy like Hawkins of Johnson?

 

I wouldn't do that trade, and if we do make a trade I doubt its going to be one of that ilk. Think of last year's deals for a better gauge of what Hahn is probably looking for, savvy moves giving up little talent for flawed but useful veterans.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 27, 2013 -> 08:09 AM)
You blast the White Sox for trading "cost controlled" guys for veterans, then a couple of posts later praise the Cardinals for doing the same thing.

 

 

That's the "whatever leads to a World Series title" exception to the rule, silly!

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QUOTE (hawksfan61 @ May 27, 2013 -> 08:13 AM)
I thought our system was hot garbage, so why are people worried about trading anything that is currently in it outside a guy like Hawkins of Johnson?

 

I wouldn't do that trade, and if we do make a trade I doubt its going to be one of that ilk. Think of last year's deals for a better gauge of what Hahn is probably looking for, savvy moves giving up little talent for flawed but useful veterans.

 

 

Then 50% of the posters will say our attendance/fan support can't possibly justify adding another $10-12-15 million in salaries at the deadline.

 

Maybe Hahn/JR will even say it, after these two Cubs' games, if they are not well-attended (less than 30,000).

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:12 AM)
I'm sure we could get Carlos Ruiz and money coming back...and a new lease on life for him with a contending team.

 

No matter what happens, I'll take my chances on that (just like Youkilis last year) over Flowers/Gimenez.

So you would trade Daniel Hudson for a broken down , drug aided,veteran. You ripped him being traded for a serviceable pitcher, the very one you praised the Cardinals for trading their "cost controlled" prospect in order to acquire. You have come full circle.

Edited by Dick Allen

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 27, 2013 -> 10:09 AM)
You blast the White Sox for trading "cost controlled" guys for veterans, then a couple of posts later praise the Cardinals for doing the same thing.

What cost-controlled guy did the Cardinals give up there? Rasmus? They gave up a cost-controlled guy the league loved but who they hated and they turned out right on both points. Their scouts deserve a ton of applause for that one.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ May 27, 2013 -> 08:17 AM)
What cost-controlled guy did the Cardinals give up there? Rasmus? They gave up a cost-controlled guy the league loved but who they hated and they turned out right on both points. Their scouts deserve a ton of applause for that one.

 

That was all Tony LaRussa, just as much as Swisher being dumped was all Ozzie Guillen.

 

Egos.

 

Now, I'll give the Cardinals credit for finding the exact perfect pieces to fit into their bullpen...

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 27, 2013 -> 09:15 AM)
Then 50% of the posters will say our attendance/fan support can't possibly justify adding another $10-12-15 million in salaries at the deadline.

 

Maybe Hahn/JR will even say it, after these two Cubs' games, if they are not well-attended (less than 30,000).

All of our opinions mean nothing. Hahn has already stated the money is ther to add to the team. The White Sox know how many tickets they have sold. BTW yesterday's walk up of 2600 was the largest of the season. It was chilly but nice in the sun when it was out. The Sunday pricing probably has a lot to do with it. I think Sundays should be well attended in the summer months.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 27, 2013 -> 10:21 AM)
That was all Tony LaRussa, just as much as Swisher being dumped was all Ozzie Guillen.

 

Egos.

 

Now, I'll give the Cardinals credit for finding the exact perfect pieces to fit into their bullpen...

And again...Tony LaRussa's ego wound up being perfectly 100% correct. Rasmus has been awful with Torotno.

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