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Sox Will Sell; Everyone But Sale and Konerko on Block


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QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 10:48 AM)
And spend nothing on the draft.

This is truth.

 

And KW also had as much to do with that as he had to do with the length of Ozzie's tenure here.

 

This new CBA is the greatest thing that could have ever happened to our farm system. Hahn will undoubtedly build a much better farm than Kenny had during the majority of his reign, but it will have more to do with ownership than anything else.

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QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 10:54 AM)
This is truth.

 

And KW also had as much to do with that as he had to do with the length of Ozzie's tenure here.

 

This new CBA is the greatest thing that could have ever happened to our farm system. Hahn will undoubtedly build a much better farm than Kenny had during the majority of his reign, but it will have more to do with ownership than anything else.

 

Disagree with KW being hand tied in the draft, he tried to get fancy and go after toolsy guys like Jared Mitchell who struggled to make contact in college instead of baseball players.

 

Agree that the CBA is the best thing that ever happened to the Sox. This will put an end to guys like Porcello who was thought of as a top 10 guy slipping to the Tigers at the end of the first round.

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I have a lot of hope for 2014 and the future with this pitching staff. We could even trade a starter and still be in good shape. There are a couple interesting arms in the minors to fill bullpen spots that will likely open up.

 

The offense needs a pretty big re-tool, and only a couple or three positions have a reasonable option from our minors who would be ready in 2014. And that is pushing it for some.

 

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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 10:58 AM)
Disagree with KW being hand tied in the draft, he tried to get fancy and go after toolsy guys like Jared Mitchell who struggled to make contact in college instead of baseball players.

 

Agree that the CBA is the best thing that ever happened to the Sox. This will put an end to guys like Porcello who was thought of as a top 10 guy slipping to the Tigers at the end of the first round.

This is really funny. For years KW was blasted for drafting safe guys from college like McCullough and Broadway. Now he is getting blasted for high ceiling projects.

 

FAce it for years the Sox spent all of their resources on the MLB team which left no bonus money for the draft. Now with the new rules for the draft the Sox can still allocate most of the resources to the MLB team and be competitive in the draft.

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 11:59 AM)
This is really funny. For years KW was blasted for drafting safe guys from college like McCullough and Broadway. Now he is getting blasted for high ceiling projects.

 

FAce it for years the Sox spent all of their resources on the MLB team which left no bonus money for the draft. Now with the new rules for the draft the Sox can still allocate most of the resources to the MLB team and be competitive in the draft.

If Jared Mitchell doesn't get hurt making that catch who knows what that pick looks like now.

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 11:59 AM)
This is really funny. For years KW was blasted for drafting safe guys from college like McCullough and Broadway. Now he is getting blasted for high ceiling projects.

 

FAce it for years the Sox spent all of their resources on the MLB team which left no bonus money for the draft. Now with the new rules for the draft the Sox can still allocate most of the resources to the MLB team and be competitive in the draft.

 

Bingo.

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QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:17 AM)
He better make the right trades. I still wish he wouldn't trade pitching. Sox are going to be a 60 win team for a long long time to come if he trades off all that pitching.

 

Meh. That might be a stretch. You can sign stopgap replacement level guys on one or two year deals until "whoever" is ready to come up and be a regular rotation guy.

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Knowing the Sox, any big deal they make that returns 3-4 players is going to include at least one pitcher. We'll be adding to our organizational pitching depth after these moves, just getting better probably on the starting front if worse in the pen, and if Peavy goes, given all the salary we will be moving, we should be able to sign at least one more righty to go with Johnson.

 

***IF*** there actually is someone willing to take on Danks' contract, then we already have 3 lefties + Johnson, so if Peavy goes we sign a FA to slot in at the #2 with some of that cash and add the prospects we acquire to that picture, and we're sitting pretty. We're in the catbird seat.

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QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 12:05 PM)
If Jared Mitchell doesn't get hurt making that catch who knows what that pick looks like now.

I don't think there should be any true physical reprecussions. The re-attachment of the tendon should be fine. However, it is tricky and you never know. The biggest detriment is the lost time for learning.

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 11:53 AM)
I don't think there should be any true physical reprecussions. The re-attachment of the tendon should be fine. However, it is tricky and you never know. The biggest detriment is the lost time for learning.

 

 

Hard to measure lost confidence, aggressiveness and a lingering sense of hesitation or uncertainty.

 

It's like the will to win, whatever that even means.

Edited by caulfield12
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QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 11:59 AM)
This is really funny. For years KW was blasted for drafting safe guys from college like McCullough and Broadway. Now he is getting blasted for high ceiling projects.

 

FAce it for years the Sox spent all of their resources on the MLB team which left no bonus money for the draft. Now with the new rules for the draft the Sox can still allocate most of the resources to the MLB team and be competitive in the draft.

The issue with the draft wasn't that the Sox had no money because they used it all on the MLB team, the problem was that Reinsdorf was best friends with Bud Selig and refused to go over slot (with few exceptions). That's what has been killing our minor league system for years.

 

You're right about the first part. People see tons of prospects busting and demand a new draft philosophy, but fail to realize prospects are naturally expected to bust, even if you take a bunch of "safe" guys with your top picks. I actually love their new philosophy of going after toolsy/high-upside prospects because you increase your chance of drafting a superstar significantly and maximizing your potential surplus value.

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 12:53 PM)
I don't think there should be any true physical reprecussions. The re-attachment of the tendon should be fine. However, it is tricky and you never know. The biggest detriment is the lost time for learning.

That's kind of what I was referring to... there's the injury itself, but then you have all that missed time, then him probably feeling like he has to hurry up and prove himself before the door closes, while the organization is still trying to push him up levels. There's the confidence factor, everything. Sometimes it seems like for a player with the talent of Mitchell but also with the major holes in his game Mitchell has, absolutely everything has to go right, every fit, everything, at unless unless you are a pitcher. Jared at the point of injury was really putting himself on the map and he hasn't even been close to getting back there since.

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:00 PM)
The issue with the draft wasn't that the Sox had no money because they used it all on the MLB team, the problem was that Reinsdorf was best friends with Bud Selig and refused to go over slot (with few exceptions). That's what has been killing our minor league system for years.

 

You're right about the first part. People see tons of prospects busting and demand a new draft philosophy, but fail to realize prospects are naturally expected to bust, even if you take a bunch of "safe" guys with your top picks. I actually love their new philosophy of going after toolsy/high-upside prospects because you increase your chance of drafting a superstar significantly and maximizing your potential surplus value.

JR didn't go over slot because of the "cartel" of owners trying to keep the bonuses down (they finally got their way with the new CBA). I think there was the resource factor as well. The Sox drafted guys like Broadway and didn't even come close to paying slot money. I think they were drafting to their budget as well as staying underslot.

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:00 PM)
The issue with the draft wasn't that the Sox had no money because they used it all on the MLB team, the problem was that Reinsdorf was best friends with Bud Selig and refused to go over slot (with few exceptions). That's what has been killing our minor league system for years.

 

You're right about the first part. People see tons of prospects busting and demand a new draft philosophy, but fail to realize prospects are naturally expected to bust, even if you take a bunch of "safe" guys with your top picks. I actually love their new philosophy of going after toolsy/high-upside prospects because you increase your chance of drafting a superstar significantly and maximizing your potential surplus value.

This exactly.

 

Although Reinsdorf was doing what he believed was best for the game. He was making the sacrifice that the other owners were refusing to make. That's why I can't hate on Reinsdorf, he is a man of character & principle, but he did just sit there and watch the Tigers abuse the system, the Yankees & Red sox abuse the system, etc. It seemed like generally the Twins & Pirates stuck to their guns ala the Sox, but most teams just did whatever they wanted.

 

The key here is that the best way to extract value from a MiLB system is to trade unproven players for real, proven players before they have had the chance to bust. I'm sure JR knew he was handcuffing KW who LVOES to trade prospects, but I respect the character it takes to stick to your guns like that, even though it pissed me off as a fan watching the picks come in.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 12:59 PM)
Hard to measure lost confidence, aggressiveness and a lingering sense of hesitation or uncertainty.

 

It's like the will to win, whatever that even means.

TRue but usually those things diminish after a season or two.

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QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:51 PM)
Knowing the Sox, any big deal they make that returns 3-4 players is going to include at least one pitcher. We'll be adding to our organizational pitching depth after these moves, just getting better probably on the starting front if worse in the pen, and if Peavy goes, given all the salary we will be moving, we should be able to sign at least one more righty to go with Johnson.

 

***IF*** there actually is someone willing to take on Danks' contract, then we already have 3 lefties + Johnson, so if Peavy goes we sign a FA to slot in at the #2 with some of that cash and add the prospects we acquire to that picture, and we're sitting pretty. We're in the catbird seat.

I have generally no problem trading for pitching this year, but I'd stress that if the Sox are taking pitchers back, I want them to target pitchers who are a couple years away from the big leagues. It seriously doesn't help the Sox to trade for MLB-ready pitching right now, not with the logjam they have of pitchers already; it'll just force them to have to trade more pitching to find innings for people or shove people into the bullpen where they don't belong (again).

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:18 PM)
I have generally no problem trading for pitching this year, but I'd stress that if the Sox are taking pitchers back, I want them to target pitchers who are a couple years away from the big leagues. It seriously doesn't help the Sox to trade for MLB-ready pitching right now, not with the logjam they have of pitchers already; it'll just force them to have to trade more pitching to find innings for people or shove people into the bullpen where they don't belong (again).

I would guess that any MLB-ready guys are relievers & that on the SP side they are targeting ceiling, which means A & A+ guys probably. Usually the good AA types are labeled as being near-ready even though in reality they could be 2-3 years off.

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 11:59 AM)
This is really funny. For years KW was blasted for drafting safe guys from college like McCullough and Broadway. Now he is getting blasted for high ceiling projects.

 

FAce it for years the Sox spent all of their resources on the MLB team which left no bonus money for the draft. Now with the new rules for the draft the Sox can still allocate most of the resources to the MLB team and be competitive in the draft.

 

Mitchell wasn't a high ceiling prospect. He was a guy that struggled with contact in college that KW thought would all of the sudden learn how to hit when he got to the pros. He was a high floor prospect because he was close to being finished when he came out of college and you knew what you were getting, good speed, solid defense and power to the gaps, and he struggled to recognize breaking balls. KW was infatuated with athletes when drafting hitters over baseball players.

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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:40 PM)
Mitchell wasn't a high ceiling prospect. He was a guy that struggled with contact in college that KW thought would all of the sudden learn how to hit when he got to the pros. He was a high floor prospect because he was close to being finished when he came out of college and you knew what you were getting, good speed, solid defense and power to the gaps, and he struggled to recognize breaking balls. KW was infatuated with athletes when drafting hitters over baseball players.

When Mitchell was drafted there were people calling him the best athlete in the draft. If that doesn't say ceiling I don't know what does.

 

Edit: he was also compared to Carl Crawford.

Edited by The Ultimate Champion
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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:40 PM)
Mitchell wasn't a high ceiling prospect. He was a guy that struggled with contact in college that KW thought would all of the sudden learn how to hit when he got to the pros. He was a high floor prospect because he was close to being finished when he came out of college and you knew what you were getting, good speed, solid defense and power to the gaps, and he struggled to recognize breaking balls. KW was infatuated with athletes when drafting hitters over baseball players.

 

Yeah I think you have a fundamentally different definition of "ceiling." Guys with raw tools who are successful despite a lack of advanced skills have the highest ceiling of all because they have the potential to get a lot better with the development of said skills. The way you just described Mitchell is pretty much the textbook definition of low floor/high ceiling. Boom or bust.

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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:40 PM)
Mitchell wasn't a high ceiling prospect. He was a guy that struggled with contact in college that KW thought would all of the sudden learn how to hit when he got to the pros. He was a high floor prospect because he was close to being finished when he came out of college and you knew what you were getting, good speed, solid defense and power to the gaps, and he struggled to recognize breaking balls. KW was infatuated with athletes when drafting hitters over baseball players.

MItchell was not close to being a finished product. He was considered a raw athlete with potential mostly due to missing so mch time with football. The theory was a low floor/high ceiling because he ahd athletic gifts but not much time in the game.

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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:40 PM)
Mitchell wasn't a high ceiling prospect. He was a guy that struggled with contact in college that KW thought would all of the sudden learn how to hit when he got to the pros. He was a high floor prospect because he was close to being finished when he came out of college and you knew what you were getting, good speed, solid defense and power to the gaps, and he struggled to recognize breaking balls. KW was infatuated with athletes when drafting hitters over baseball players.

This whole paragraph is just so wrong. Mitchell was a guy with incredible physical tools who had been unable to commit himself to baseball full-time because he also played football. The hope was that by focusing on baseball he'd be able to develop the skills necessary to become a legitimate superstar a la Carl Crawford. At no point did anyone think he was anything close to a finished product when he was drafted.

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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 01:40 PM)
Mitchell wasn't a high ceiling prospect. He was a guy that struggled with contact in college that KW thought would all of the sudden learn how to hit when he got to the pros. He was a high floor prospect because he was close to being finished when he came out of college and you knew what you were getting, good speed, solid defense and power to the gaps, and he struggled to recognize breaking balls.

Ya, you got this whole thing backwards.

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 03:08 PM)
This whole paragraph is just so wrong. Mitchell was a guy with incredible physical tools who had been unable to commit himself to baseball full-time because he also played football. The hope was that by focusing on baseball he'd be able to develop the skills necessary to become a legitimate superstar a la Carl Crawford. At no point did anyone think he was anything close to a finished product when he was drafted.

The product they got was the finished product in that he never attained the skills they hoped he would when he was drafted.

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QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 28, 2013 -> 03:08 PM)
This whole paragraph is just so wrong. Mitchell was a guy with incredible physical tools who had been unable to commit himself to baseball full-time because he also played football. The hope was that by focusing on baseball he'd be able to develop the skills necessary to become a legitimate superstar a la Carl Crawford. At no point did anyone think he was anything close to a finished product when he was drafted.

I believe that's what I said.

 

1. He was considered a raw athlete.

2. He was not a finished product.

3. Did not focus on baseball.

 

Thus considered a high ceiling low floor daft prospect. No one what they were getting so he had a big potential to bust but could also be a great player.

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