Rosenthal: Sox should market Sale

[Balta1701]

You spent the better part of the first half of the season campaigning against rebuilding.

 

So you're essentially advocating, despite all historical evidence to the contrary (with the notable exceptions of Albert Belle and Adam Dunn) that they're going to give 3-4-5 year contracts to at least 2 and as many as 3 big-ticket free agents coming into 2014?

 

What if that's the plan, and they don't end up signing anyone but retreads/cast-offs/players coming off injuries?

 

If you're any of those FA players we keep mentioning, there's no other reason than money for coming to Chicago...so why would you choose Chicago instead of a contender if the money was fairly even? If we get into bidding wars, we lose every single time because at a certain point, Hahn's conservative/risk-averse nature will kick in and they'll drop out of the bidding.

I don't think they will sign 3 guys, no.

 

The reason I don't think they will is that I don't think teams will come through with offers that make trading Rios and others worthwhile.

 

But I think if they're smart, and they get a little lucky with development from Phegley, they can sign 1 guy, hit the jackpot, and be right in this race next year.

[caulfield12]

 

 

where's ptac?

 

I want his opinion on this...Johnson was taller and therefore had more leverage behind his pitches and stress on the joints...in his opinion, why didn't the Big Unit break down?

 

And does he feel that Chris Sale's motion/delivery is a TJ waiting to happen?

 

He's probably discussed it before when Sale was hurt last year...just can't remember his specific comments.

[caulfield12]

I don't think they will sign 3 guys, no.

 

The reason I don't think they will is that I don't think teams will come through with offers that make trading Rios and others worthwhile.

 

But I think if they're smart, and they get a little lucky with development from Phegley, they can sign 1 guy, hit the jackpot, and be right in this race next year.

 

Then you're also willing to gamble that DeAza and Ramirez get their heads out of their collective -----, too?

 

Along with Dayan...

 

But having watched the developments of this season for nearly 90 games, what reason is there to believe that this will actually transpire?

 

Magic? Luck?

Edited July 11, 2013 by caulfield12

[harfman77]

The Sox are not close to contending at this point. The Sox can go out and spend to be competitive and be a mediocre team for the foreseeable future, but with a lack of talent on the major league level and no help in sight in the upper levels of the farm system there is really no foundation to build success. As we have seen this year, pitching can only take you so far. There is no reason to not rebuild this team from the ground up to try and generate some prolonged success. I think we are looking at a 3-4 year rebuild, and delaying that only makes the period of time which this team will not be a contender longer. If you can make deals that bring back MLB caliber starters and prospects in addition, you really need to look at them.

 

If Sale can turn into three everyday players with some upside plus a starter with a high ceiling, it makes this team a lot better than one guy going out and dominating every five days, but losing becuase the offense and defense behind him is crap.

[harfman77]

I don't think they will sign 3 guys, no.

 

The reason I don't think they will is that I don't think teams will come through with offers that make trading Rios and others worthwhile.

 

But I think if they're smart, and they get a little lucky with development from Phegley, they can sign 1 guy, hit the jackpot, and be right in this race next year.

 

So the strategy for contention should be "luck"?

 

I don't see one player out in free agency this season that will make this team significantly better. I expect Dayan will revert to being the player he was last season, and that this season is more of an outlier, but 3B production will no doubt regress.

[Balta1701]

So the strategy for contention should be "luck"?

 

I don't see one player out in free agency this season that will make this team significantly better. I expect Dayan will revert to being the player he was last season, and that this season is more of an outlier, but 3B production will no doubt regress.

Isn't it always luck?

 

If you want a real strategy though...it's "get these players back to playing defense the way they were in 2012 and find a player to hit @ 1b"

[ptatc]

Unless they find buyers for Peavy AND John Danks, a left-hander who has been pitching much better recently and is an experienced veteran with Game 163/playoff baseball experience, as well as the 2010 season.

THis is true. However with the contracts and injuries, the sox may get more for the young pitchers. It could go any of these ways just depending on what other GMs value the highest. My guess would be one of the young pitchers (my bet is Santiago) but you never know.

[hogan873]

Oh boy. My first thought is hell no, you don't trade Sale. He's under team control for quite a while with a pretty friendly contract. You can build around this guy. The rotation next year could be Sale, Danks, Quintana, Santiago, and another guy (Floyd?). That's pretty good.

 

However, after reading this thread and the posts by members more informed than me, I can see the rationale behind trading Sale for an absolute haul. But it would have to be just that, a haul of epic proportions. I don't know much about other teams' prospects, but I've looked up a few that have been mentioned here. The Sox could put themselves in a position to compete for years.

 

Overall, though, I'd like to see Sale stay.

[caulfield12]

Oh boy. My first thought is hell no, you don't trade Sale. He's under team control for quite a while with a pretty friendly contract. You can build around this guy. The rotation next year could be Sale, Danks, Quintana, Santiago, and another guy (Floyd?). That's pretty good.

 

However, after reading this thread and the posts by members more informed than me, I can see the rationale behind trading Sale for an absolute haul. But it would have to be just that, a haul of epic proportions. I don't know much about other teams' prospects, but I've looked up a few that have been mentioned here. The Sox could put themselves in a position to compete for years.

 

Overall, though, I'd like to see Sale stay.

 

Floyd probably won't pitch at all next season in a big league game...would make more sense to sign him to a minor league deal with some type of incentives and try to talk him into staying for 2015+. Or just wait until 2015.

[southsider2k5]

So the strategy for contention should be "luck"?

 

I don't see one player out in free agency this season that will make this team significantly better. I expect Dayan will revert to being the player he was last season, and that this season is more of an outlier, but 3B production will no doubt regress.

 

It isn't a big leap to say that our team this year is a result of bad "luck" to a large extent.

[Balta1701]

Floyd probably won't pitch at all next season in a big league game...would make more sense to sign him to a minor league deal with some type of incentives and try to talk him into staying for 2015+. Or just wait until 2015.

I think there's a very good chance the Sox will do exactly this.

[southsider2k5]

I think there's a very good chance the Sox will do exactly this.

 

I'd have no problem with it in theory, but where would he pitch?

[harfman77]

I think there's a very good chance the Sox will do exactly this.

 

Agree, but it will be a MLB deal, cause some other team will offer him that if the Sox don't. He will probably be ready around this time next season. Brandon Beachy had surgery on Jun 22 last season and will be back by the end of the month. Floyd is older so figuring a little extra time for recovery he should be back near the trade deadline next season.

[harfman77]

I'd have no problem with it in theory, but where would he pitch?

 

Maybe in Danks spot is he is moved at the deadline next year? I think the Sox will trade from their position of strength and move multiple starters before Floyd comes back.

[Balta1701]

I'd have no problem with it in theory, but where would he pitch?

I think he'll be penciled in as showing up in Charlotte during the middle of the year next year, and maybe see if he's ready to do a callup in August or September. By then who knows where the rotation will be.

[Balta1701]

Agree, but it will be a MLB deal, cause some other team will offer him that if the Sox don't. He will probably be ready around this time next season. Brandon Beachy had surgery on Jun 22 last season and will be back by the end of the month. Floyd is older so figuring a little extra time for recovery he should be back near the trade deadline next season.

According to Ptatc, Floyd's injury and surgery was also slightly more severe than the usual TJS so it's not unreasonable that it will be >12 months before he is pitching in games again.

[harfman77]

It isn't a big leap to say that our team this year is a result of bad "luck" to a large extent.

 

It is a lot smaller leap to say time is what has happened to this team. Most of this roster is on the wrong side of 30 and just are not going to improve any more. With the decline of PEDS, players are not maintaining their level of play through their mid-30's as they were when PEDS were everywhere.

 

You make your own luck, this team is just not good.

[harfman77]

According to Ptatc, Floyd's injury and surgery was also slightly more severe than the usual TJS so it's not unreasonable that it will be >12 months before he is pitching in games again.

 

His surgery was May 7, so August would be almost 15 months.

[Balta1701]

His surgery was May 7, so August would be almost 15 months.

Pt gave a 12-18 month timeline for him to start throwing again IIRC, when normal TJS is throwing at like 9 months and coming close to back by 12.

[southsider2k5]

I think he'll be penciled in as showing up in Charlotte during the middle of the year next year, and maybe see if he's ready to do a callup in August or September. By then who knows where the rotation will be.

 

I think you only get 30 days for injury rehab.

[southsider2k5]

It is a lot smaller leap to say time is what has happened to this team. Most of this roster is on the wrong side of 30 and just are not going to improve any more. With the decline of PEDS, players are not maintaining their level of play through their mid-30's as they were when PEDS were everywhere.

 

You make your own luck, this team is just not good.

 

I am a big believer in the truth lying in the middle somewhere. This is a team that was in first place as late as two weeks to go in the season last year. Now they are one of the worst teams in baseball? That sort of decline isn't right. That isn't natural. Age decline happens in stages, not in a lemming style cliff jump. Also it hasn't just been the old players.

[caulfield12]

I am a big believer in the truth lying in the middle somewhere. This is a team that was in first place as late as two weeks to go in the season last year. Now they are one of the worst teams in baseball? That sort of decline isn't right. That isn't natural. Age decline happens in stages, not in a lemming style cliff jump. Also it hasn't just been the old players.

 

 

That only works for Konerko and Matt Thornton as an excuse, really.

 

You can blame age for the disappearing pop from Alexei's bat, but Viciedo at age 24 and DeAza at 29 or 30 are hard to figure out, especially Dayan (granted, his OPS is almost back to 700 after the last two nights, but 775-825 was the goal for this season).

 

Then there was Dunn's "aggressive approach" debacle, the Floyd and Beckham injuries, Keppinger looking more like a AAAA player than a major leaguer and then Flowers, but what Tyler has done was predicted pretty much across the board by most Sox prospect skeptics.

[iamshack]

I am a big believer in the truth lying in the middle somewhere. This is a team that was in first place as late as two weeks to go in the season last year. Now they are one of the worst teams in baseball? That sort of decline isn't right. That isn't natural. Age decline happens in stages, not in a lemming style cliff jump. Also it hasn't just been the old players.

It just goes to show you how much the little things matter...you start going down the wrong road, and no one stands up and says "We're going the wrong way! The town is THAT way!" and all the sudden you look up and you're up s*** creek without a paddle.

[iamshack]

That only works for Konerko and Matt Thornton as an excuse, really.

 

You can blame age for the disappearing pop from Alexei's bat, but Viciedo at age 24 and DeAza at 29 or 30 are hard to figure out, especially Dayan (granted, his OPS is almost back to 700 after the last two nights, but 775-825 was the goal for this season).

 

Then there was Dunn's "aggressive approach" debacle, the Floyd and Beckham injuries, Keppinger looking more like a AAAA player than a major leaguer and then Flowers, but what Tyler has done was predicted pretty much across the board by most Sox prospect skeptics.

I don't get why everyone seems to think De Aza is having a crappy season offensively.

[southsider2k5]

It just goes to show you how much the little things matter...you start going down the wrong road, and no one stands up and says "We're going the wrong way! The town is THAT way!" and all the sudden you look up and you're up s*** creek without a paddle.

 

With the regime change, we don't know that isn't happening now. Everything I read about Ventura before he was a manager was that he was vocal, he just wasn't vocal in front of people. I remember stories about him taking guys like Frank Thomas aside in the clubhouse behind closed doors to ream them about stuff that happened on the field. I doubt that style has changed now with him as a manager.