Rosenthal: Sox should market Sale

[caulfield12]

I don't get why everyone seems to think De Aza is having a crappy season offensively.

 

 

His whole approach at the plate, his K rate, his walk rate, the fact that he seems more concerned with lifting the ball into the air and pulling now instead of accepting the pitch where it is thrown....his total inability to make good decisions on the basepaths, etc.

 

He's just not a leadoff hitter anymore, and he shouldn't be playing CF, either....so he's a defensive liability and his enigmatic mental game has offset anything he's contributed offensively.

 

He's the perfect 4th outfielder on a great team...or a playoff team, even.

Edited July 11, 2013 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

I don't get why everyone seems to think De Aza is having a crappy season offensively.

 

It is hard to separate that from his baserunning and defensive disasters.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Lots of good discussion on this thread. Many people on the compete next year side. Many people on the true rebuild side. I think it will be somewhere in the middle. I don't think this is a good baseball team. However, the White Sox have good young starting pitching. Most teams with pitching don't have to truly rebuild. The problem is, who are the position players on this team the next time the Sox are good? Gordon Beckham? While he is having a good year, he is a #8 hitter probably. Hopefully Phegley is the catcher but there is an equal chance that he's bad. That is it. They have some intriguing options on the farm but none that will be ready to go soon. I also don't think going into the free agent market next year is the right move or the move that this team will make. I don't think keeping what the Sox currently have and adding a FA Of and 1B automatically puts this team into contention. They have to get younger. That won't happen with just Lindstrom, Crain, and Thornton getting moved though. This is the opportune time to move Rios, Peavy, De Aza, Ramirez, Dunn and whoever else you can. Obviosuly, you don't have to trade any of them though. The relief pitchers are the only guys that are essential to trade but those guys just aren't going to bring back a monster haul. This is a tough rebuilding process.

 

I have seen Santiago mentioned a lot. Ideally, they could move Danks and keep Sale, Quintana, and Santiago. Probably can't happen though. What would it take for you to trade a Santiago? Unlikely but would you trade Santiago to LAA for Trumbo? Do you the Sox need more than that? I feel like they need to get 2 position players that will be starters and a young live arm in return. Santiago is a valuable piece that I hope they don't just dump.

[iamshack]

His whole approach at the plate, his K rate, his walk rate, the fact that he seems more concerned with lifting the ball into the air and pulling now instead of accepting the pitch where it is thrown....his total inability to make good decisions on the basepaths, etc.

 

He's just not a leadoff hitter anymore, and he shouldn't be playing CF, either....so he's a defensive liability and his enigmatic mental game has offset anything he's contributed offensively.

 

He's the perfect 4th outfielder on a great team...or a playoff team, even.

Gotcha. I probably don't realize these things because I don't watch the games anymore. All I know is he is the 78th ranked player in baseball in the scoring system my fantasy league uses.

[Balta1701]

Gotcha. I probably don't realize these things because I don't watch the games anymore. All I know is he is the 78th ranked player in baseball in the scoring system my fantasy league uses.

Part of it with De Aza is also that he got off to a rotten start to the year as well.

OPS

April .678

May .716

June .810

 

The pitching was there for the team in April and May but none of the hitters were. They've been hitting better in June but the pitching has been half a run worse as well.

[iamshack]

With the regime change, we don't know that isn't happening now. Everything I read about Ventura before he was a manager was that he was vocal, he just wasn't vocal in front of people. I remember stories about him taking guys like Frank Thomas aside in the clubhouse behind closed doors to ream them about stuff that happened on the field. I doubt that style has changed now with him as a manager.

I read those stories too.

 

Maybe they need a different group then, because these guys certainly have not responded to him.

[caulfield12]

Lots of good discussion on this thread. Many people on the compete next year side. Many people on the true rebuild side. I think it will be somewhere in the middle. I don't think this is a good baseball team. However, the White Sox have good young starting pitching. Most teams with pitching don't have to truly rebuild. The problem is, who are the position players on this team the next time the Sox are good? Gordon Beckham? While he is having a good year, he is a #8 hitter probably. Hopefully Phegley is the catcher but there is an equal chance that he's bad. That is it. They have some intriguing options on the farm but none that will be ready to go soon. I also don't think going into the free agent market next year is the right move or the move that this team will make. I don't think keeping what the Sox currently have and adding a FA Of and 1B automatically puts this team into contention. They have to get younger. That won't happen with just Lindstrom, Crain, and Thornton getting moved though. This is the opportune time to move Rios, Peavy, De Aza, Ramirez, Dunn and whoever else you can. Obviosuly, you don't have to trade any of them though. The relief pitchers are the only guys that are essential to trade but those guys just aren't going to bring back a monster haul. This is a tough rebuilding process.

 

 

 

The Angels wouldn't make that trade, IMO.

 

I have seen Santiago mentioned a lot. Ideally, they could move Danks and keep Sale, Quintana, and Santiago. Probably can't happen though. What would it take for you to trade a Santiago? Unlikely but would you trade Santiago to LAA for Trumbo? Do you the Sox need more than that? I feel like they need to get 2 position players that will be starters and a young live arm in return. Santiago is a valuable piece that I hope they don't just dump.

 

 

Because of Dayan's age and potential, he'll be around next season...they would be pretty crazy to give up on him right now...and they'd be selling way too low.

 

Also, if Conor can hit 15 homers per season, that's enough to be an adequate or average MLB 3B, along with Keppinger (if he's not dealt) in a platoon, that should be good for 725-750 overall OPS. So while that's not exactly a position of strength, but it's not the biggest weakness right now, either.

 

And then the ongoing Phegley/Flowers situation.

Edited July 11, 2013 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

I read those stories too.

 

Maybe they need a different group then, because these guys certainly have not responded to him.

This year. THey haven't responded to him this year.

 

They did last year, with mostly the same guys.

[Y2Jimmy0]

His whole approach at the plate, his K rate, his walk rate, the fact that he seems more concerned with lifting the ball into the air and pulling now instead of accepting the pitch where it is thrown....his total inability to make good decisions on the basepaths, etc.

 

He's just not a leadoff hitter anymore, and he shouldn't be playing CF, either....so he's a defensive liability and his enigmatic mental game has offset anything he's contributed offensively.

 

He's the perfect 4th outfielder on a great team...or a playoff team, even.

 

 

De Aza could be a LF on a team though. For example, let's say a team has a good leadoff hitter that plays 2B/SS. The team also has a CF that hits in the middle of the lineup. De Aza could be really good as a #8 or #9 hitter. His offensive numbers are not that different than Alex Rios' offensive numbers honestly. De Aza annoys me too but if he wasn't leading off and playing CF he actually brings something to the table. I think De Aza could hit you 15-18 homers in the 9 spot and get on base at a .330 clip.

[southsider2k5]

I read those stories too.

 

Maybe they need a different group then, because these guys certainly have not responded to him.

 

At this point, I'd have no problem with that. This team is lost, and you pretty much need to change something, either players or management.

[Dick Allen]

I think you only get 30 days for injury rehab.

If Floyd signs a contract for next season, it will be of the minor league variety.

[southsider2k5]

If Floyd signs a contract for next season, it will be of the minor league variety.

 

I'd bet money you are wrong. He will get a major league contract with a team option for a second year if I had bet.

[iamshack]

This year. THey haven't responded to him this year.

 

They did last year, with mostly the same guys.

Yeah, but last year, things went about as well as expected, until the end of the year, when I really thought Robin failed us as a manager.

 

This year, as I expected, things didn't go well at all, and he seemingly has been unable to get them to respond in any form or fashion.

 

Color me unimpressed.

[caulfield12]

De Aza could be a LF on a team though. For example, let's say a team has a good leadoff hitter that plays 2B/SS. The team also has a CF that hits in the middle of the lineup. De Aza could be really good as a #8 or #9 hitter. His offensive numbers are not that different than Alex Rios' offensive numbers honestly. De Aza annoys me too but if he wasn't leading off and playing CF he actually brings something to the table. I think De Aza could hit you 15-18 homers in the 9 spot and get on base at a .330 clip.

 

 

IMO, better to leave Viciedo there and find a new 1B (instead of moving Dayan to 1B to make room for DeAza in LF) and new CFer. (Unless they really just want to save money and not do anything but have another wasted season in 2014).

 

We know DeAza's max potential, it's more in line with the 2011 season...but there's not a reasonable argument that he's going to get any better from here on out, whereas I could easily make that case for Dayan in LF.

Edited July 11, 2013 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Yeah, but last year, things went about as well as expected, until the end of the year, when I really thought Robin failed us as a manager.

 

This year, as I expected, things didn't go well at all, and he seemingly has been unable to get them to respond in any form or fashion.

 

Color me unimpressed.

Things went much, much, much better last year than I expected.

 

In particular with the focus and fundamentals.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Because of Dayan's age and potential, he'll be around next season...they would be pretty crazy to give up on him right now...and they'd be selling way too low.

 

Also, if Conor can hit 15 homers per season, that's enough to be an adequate or average MLB 3B, along with Keppinger (if he's not dealt) in a platoon, that should be good for 725-750 overall OPS. So while that's not exactly a position of strength, but it's not the biggest weakness right now, either.

 

And then the ongoing Phegley/Flowers situation.

 

 

Yeah I forgot about Viciedo. Obviously, he will be here because he is only 24. However, he needs to be a lot better. Even with the HR #'s last year he had a horrible offensive season.

 

I am not trying to pick a fight with you but I asked for the Sox position players that will matter on the next good team. If those guys are Beckham, Phegley, Gillaspie, and Viciedo the White Sox are in a world of trouble.

[witesoxfan]

De Aza could be a LF on a team though. For example, let's say a team has a good leadoff hitter that plays 2B/SS. The team also has a CF that hits in the middle of the lineup. De Aza could be really good as a #8 or #9 hitter. His offensive numbers are not that different than Alex Rios' offensive numbers honestly. De Aza annoys me too but if he wasn't leading off and playing CF he actually brings something to the table. I think De Aza could hit you 15-18 homers in the 9 spot and get on base at a .330 clip.

 

I'm with you, though if he's putting up those numbers, he's hitting higher than 9th. There really aren't teams anymore that don't have a couple guys putting up sub-700 OPS's anymore.

[hogan873]

I'd bet money you are wrong. He will get a major league contract with a team option for a second year if I had bet.

Would a team sign him for a major league contract if he's not going to pitch until July? I'm not being sarcastic...would a team do this?

[witesoxfan]

Would a team sign him for a major league contract if he's not going to pitch until July? I'm not being sarcastic...would a team do this?

 

For cheap with an option for the 2nd year.

[Chisoxfn]

He's much thinner than the Big Unit...that's another part of the concern.

 

Johnson was always THIN, but not RAIL THIN.

Their arm angles are practically identical.

[harfman77]

I am a big believer in the truth lying in the middle somewhere. This is a team that was in first place as late as two weeks to go in the season last year. Now they are one of the worst teams in baseball? That sort of decline isn't right. That isn't natural. Age decline happens in stages, not in a lemming style cliff jump. Also it hasn't just been the old players.

 

Thats probably true. But PK was this guy for the second half of last season as well, which is part of the reason the Sox could not hold off the Tiggers. I think Viciedo is just having an off year, as has happened to many players. They also lost a lot production with AJ's career season last year to Tylers production this year. I would agree there are a variety of factors that have caused the decline, but luck is the least of them. I just don't see any indications that this team will be better next year with another year under their belts as there are very few hitters on the rise.

[Kyyle23]

The Big Unit was rail thin when he hit the big leagues

 

[harfman77]

For cheap with an option for the 2nd year.

 

The Reds did this with Madson, which backfired, then the Angels did the same thing, which also hasn't worked out. Usually it would be a low AAV contract with incentives for IP and a team friendly option.

[Iwritecode]

Pressure...and time.

 

It's not often you see a quote from The Shawshank Redemption in a White Sox trade talk thread...

 

Oh, Andy loved geology. I imagine it appealed to his meticulous nature. An ice age here, million years of mountain building there. Geology is the study of pressure and time. That's all it takes really, pressure, and time. That, and a big goddamn poster.

 

Edited July 11, 2013 by Iwritecode

[Balta1701]

Thats probably true. But PK was this guy for the second half of last season as well, which is part of the reason the Sox could not hold off the Tiggers. I think Viciedo is just having an off year, as has happened to many players. They also lost a lot production with AJ's career season last year to Tylers production this year. I would agree there are a variety of factors that have caused the decline, but luck is the least of them. I just don't see any indications that this team will be better next year with another year under their belts as there are very few hitters on the rise.

At the very least, this team had 4+ major injuries early in the season, including several of the freak variety. Viciedo, Beckham, Peavy, Floyd. Beckham in particular was the definition of a freak injury, and it's probably going to rob him of some power for the full season. That's pretty rotten luck.