LittleHurt05 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 15, 2014 -> 10:05 PM) The next 5 games will not be fun, but with an upset it could be a signature win. Silver lining? They need at least two signature wins to cancel out Purdue, NW, and GT. Doesn't help that Mizzou football and basketball have seemingly switched positions with the conference change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jan 15, 2014 -> 11:05 PM) The next 5 games will not be fun, but with an upset it could be a signature win. Silver lining? This season is over and the non-conference was fool's gold. Our bench is all freshmen and while they are pretty talented none are impact players. Our starting lineup contains an awful center, 3 guards/wings that can't shoot and a PF who is an ok stand still shooter and brings nothing else to the table. The only thing I care about for the rest of the year is the freshmen (and really only Hill and Nunn). If those two show they can be good Big 10 players Illinois will be well positioned to be a solid team going forward with the transfers being eligible next year and hopefully a really good 2015 recruiting class. If Groce doesn't hit that class out of the park I think we probably have the wrong guy unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boogua Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Jan 15, 2014 -> 11:05 PM) This season is over and the non-conference was fool's gold. Our bench is all freshmen and while they are pretty talented none are impact players. Our starting lineup contains an awful center, 3 guards/wings that can't shoot and a PF who is an ok stand still shooter and brings nothing else to the table. The only thing I care about for the rest of the year is the freshmen (and really only Hill and Nunn). If those two show they can be good Big 10 players Illinois will be well positioned to be a solid team going forward with the transfers being eligible next year and hopefully a really good 2015 recruiting class. If Groce doesn't hit that class out of the park I think we probably have the wrong guy unfortunately. I don't think if he misses hitting the 2015 class out of the park will say much. I think it's fairly easy to see right now that it is at the very least going to be solid with Jordan and Williams in the mix. If he keeps getting top 100 players and builds his way up to 5 stars in the future that's fine. I'm more interested to see how the team does next year. If they don't make it to the sweet 16 or at the very least to the round of 32 (where they would have to be beaten by a very good team) I will start doubting Groce's coaching ability. Next year's roster is much, much more balanced than this year's. The Illini are adding two guys in Cosby and Starks that are better shooters than anybody on the current roster. The five freshmen will be sophomores and the only two people lost are Mr. Passive (Bertrand) and Ekey. Ekey should be adequately replaced by Darius Paul or even possibly Leron Black. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Boogua @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 01:43 PM) I don't think if he misses hitting the 2015 class out of the park will say much. I think it's fairly easy to see right now that it is at the very least going to be solid with Jordan and Williams in the mix. If he keeps getting top 100 players and builds his way up to 5 stars in the future that's fine. I'm more interested to see how the team does next year. If they don't make it to the sweet 16 or at the very least to the round of 32 (where they would have to be beaten by a very good team) I will start doubting Groce's coaching ability. Next year's roster is much, much more balanced than this year's. The Illini are adding two guys in Cosby and Starks that are better shooters than anybody on the current roster. The five freshmen will be sophomores and the only two people lost are Mr. Passive (Bertrand) and Ekey. Ekey should be adequately replaced by Darius Paul or even possibly Leron Black. I really think expecting Illinois to make it to the Sweet 16 regularly is pushing it. I know a lot of their fans like to exaggerate how great they have been, and they have obviously been a good program, but in the last 50 years they have made the Sweet 16 eight times. The Elite 8 four times and the Final Four twice. It is still pretty good, but not exactly College Basketball Blue Blood Program territory. Bill Self, who many of the U of I fans I know, slammed as not a good coach...cheats on his wife with cheerleaders...when he went to Kansas has 7 sweet 16's,5 Elite 8s, and 2 Final Fours his first 10 years at Kansas. I always wondered why he would leave Champaign. He was recruiting well, had Chicago in his backyard. Maybe he didn't want to play the Chicago recruiting game. From what I understand, it makes Chicago politics seem tame. Edited January 16, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boogua Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 01:51 PM) I really think expecting Illinois to make it to the Sweet 16 regularly is pushing it. I know a lot of their fans like to exaggerate how great they have been, and they have obviously been a good program, but in the last 50 years they have made the Sweet 16 eight times. The Elite 8 four times and the Final Four twice. It is still pretty good, but not exactly College Basketball Blue Blood Program territory. I never said regularly. I don't think the Illini will make the sweet 16 in two years because they will lose Rice, Abrams, Egwu (as bad as he's been), and Starks. Those guys will all get major minutes next year. They were a stepback 3 and a blown out of bounds call (who knows) from reaching the sweet 16 last year. I fully expect next year's team to be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 01:51 PM) I really think expecting Illinois to make it to the Sweet 16 regularly is pushing it. I know a lot of their fans like to exaggerate how great they have been, and they have obviously been a good program, but in the last 50 years they have made the Sweet 16 eight times. The Elite 8 four times and the Final Four twice. It is still pretty good, but not exactly College Basketball Blue Blood Program territory. While I do think some Illini fans exaggerate how "elite" the program is, I don't think a 50 year period paints the right picture. They were nothing until Lou Henson get there, so the years before him mean little, and Bruce Weber did f*** things up bad the past 5-7 years. If you take the 25 season stretch from 1980-2005, they made 8 Sweet 16s (32%), 15 round of 32s (60%), and only missed the tourney five times (once on probation) (20%). I think those are realistic goals, make the tourney nearly every year, every senior class makes at least one sweet 16, and every 5 or so years get the special Elite 8/Final 4 team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 02:09 PM) While I do think some Illini fans exaggerate how "elite" the program is, I don't think a 50 year period paints the right picture. They were nothing until Lou Henson get there, so the years before him mean little, and Bruce Weber did f*** things up bad the past 5-7 years. If you take the 25 season stretch from 1980-2005, they made 8 Sweet 16s (32%), 15 round of 32s (60%), and only missed the tourney five times (once on probation) (20%). I think those are realistic goals, make the tourney nearly every year, every senior class makes at least one sweet 16, and every 5 or so years get the special Elite 8/Final 4 team. That sort of a standard (50 years) would probably see somewhere like DePaul be better than Illinois, which while true in the 70's and 80's hasn't been true since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 01:51 PM) I really think expecting Illinois to make it to the Sweet 16 regularly is pushing it. I know a lot of their fans like to exaggerate how great they have been, and they have obviously been a good program, but in the last 50 years they have made the Sweet 16 eight times. The Elite 8 four times and the Final Four twice. It is still pretty good, but not exactly College Basketball Blue Blood Program territory. Bill Self, who many of the U of I fans I know, slammed as not a good coach...cheats on his wife with cheerleaders...when he went to Kansas has 7 sweet 16's,5 Elite 8s, and 2 Final Fours his first 10 years at Kansas. I always wondered why he would leave Champaign. He was recruiting well, had Chicago in his backyard. Maybe he didn't want to play the Chicago recruiting game. From what I understand, it makes Chicago politics seem tame. Because Kansas is arguably the #1 blue blood basketball program in the country. It's not like he left for Kansas State. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 02:14 PM) Because Kansas is arguably the #1 blue blood basketball program in the country. It's not like he left for Kansas State. Yeah, but he was the king in Champaign. Had he stayed, you add Charlie Villenueva to that title game team, and maybe they win it all. Many fans turned on him when he left. I don't think Kansas is an easier place to recruit for Self, maybe for others, than Champaign. I think if he coached Loyola they would be top 25. IMO, there had to be more. Maybe they had better toupee guys in KS. Edited January 16, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 09:31 PM) Yeah, but he was the king in Champaign. Had he stayed, you add Charlie Villenueva to that title game team, and maybe they win it all. Many fans turned on him when he left. I don't think Kansas is an easier place to recruit for Self, maybe for others, than Champaign. I think if he coached Loyola they would be top 25. IMO, there had to be more. Maybe they had better toupee guys in KS. There was more. Basically he talked to KU about the opening. He then came back to our AD and more or less told him he talked to Kansas (in other words his hand was out looking for a raise). The AD got upset that he would even talk about another job so he told him to F off. The rest is history. That said I don't think Illinois 05 would have been as good under Self as they were under Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 02:38 PM) There was more. Basically he talked to KU about the opening. He then came back to our AD and more or less told him he talked to Kansas (in other words his hand was out looking for a raise). The AD got upset that he would even talk about another job so he told him to F off. The rest is history. That said I don't think Illinois 05 would have been as good under Self as they were under Weber There is no reason not to give him a raise in that situation. That is a collosal screw up if that is how it went down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 01:51 PM) I really think expecting Illinois to make it to the Sweet 16 regularly is pushing it. I know a lot of their fans like to exaggerate how great they have been, and they have obviously been a good program, but in the last 50 years they have made the Sweet 16 eight times. The Elite 8 four times and the Final Four twice. It is still pretty good, but not exactly College Basketball Blue Blood Program territory. Bill Self, who many of the U of I fans I know, slammed as not a good coach...cheats on his wife with cheerleaders...when he went to Kansas has 7 sweet 16's,5 Elite 8s, and 2 Final Fours his first 10 years at Kansas. I always wondered why he would leave Champaign. He was recruiting well, had Chicago in his backyard. Maybe he didn't want to play the Chicago recruiting game. From what I understand, it makes Chicago politics seem tame. I guess it depends on your definition of regular, but it's absolutely not pushing it. I won't exaggerate anything, I'll let the numbers speak for themselves. You picked an arbitrary time frame and then gave no context compared to other programs. BTW, no one has ever said we're one of the blue bloods or truly elite teams. That's laughable. We're basically the best program to never have won a title, for whatever it's worth. Not a great award to win. But regularly expecting sweet 16's at Illinois is far from pushing it. What are the expectations at MSU? Indiana? OSU? Wisconsin? Should we have less of an expectation? These are from 2 years ago. I'm not going to bother looking up the updated numbers, as they haven't changed much. This accurately gives you where Illinois falls on the basketball landscape. - #13 all time in the NCAA in wins (#12 in winning percentage). - #11 (tied) all time in NCAA Tourney appearances (2nd in the Big Ten). - #18 in NCAA Tournament wins (famously most wins for a team without a title) - #14 (tied) all time in Final Four appearances (tied for the 8th highest total number of appearances) - #9 all time in collective AP poll appearances (including: #13 in weeks in the top 5, #9 in weeks in the top 10, #8 in seasons in the top 5, #9 in seasons in the top 10, #8 in seasons in the top 25) - 1st all-time in Big Ten conference wins (3rd in winning percentage) - 4th highest number of Big Ten titles in the conference - 6 more Big Ten Tournament wins than any other school, highest number (tied) of championship game appearances, 2nd in Tourney titles - We own winning records against every Big Ten program except two. Indiana has us beat by 1 game. Purdue is up by 11 games. - Tied for #18 all-time in number of McDonald’s All-Americans (I only mention this as a point that it’s also folly to suggest it’s unreasonable to expect consistent high-level recruiting, either). - Sagarin/ESPN has us at #6 all time. - NBC Sports puts us at #14. - Basketball Reference has us as the 5th best program in the last 30 years. - Forbes has us as the 5th most valuable program. So yeah, zero reason to not expect "regular" sweet 16 appearances. And if you can't figure out why Self would leave Illinois for Kansas, I can't really help you there. One of the best programs of all time, and it's confusing why you'd take that job? QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 02:31 PM) Yeah, but he was the king in Champaign. Had he stayed, you add Charlie Villenueva to that title game team, and maybe they win it all. Many fans turned on him when he left. I don't think Kansas is an easier place to recruit for Self, maybe for others, than Champaign. I think if he coached Loyola they would be top 25. IMO, there had to be more. Maybe they had better toupee guys in KS. Oh Jesus, you're out of your mind. Loyola would be top 25? LMAO. You think Champaign is easier to recruit for Self than Kansas? OK, right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 02:31 PM) Yeah, but he was the king in Champaign. Had he stayed, you add Charlie Villenueva to that title game team, and maybe they win it all. Many fans turned on him when he left. I don't think Kansas is an easier place to recruit for Self, maybe for others, than Champaign. I think if he coached Loyola they would be top 25. IMO, there had to be more. Maybe they had better toupee guys in KS. I think you are underestimating the draw & allure of a program like Kansas to coaches & recruits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 09:42 PM) There is no reason not to give him a raise in that situation. That is a collosal screw up if that is how it went down. Well our former AD was an idiot. That said I think Self did just get an extension something like only a few weeks before iIRC so I guess he sort of had a right to be pissed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 02:46 PM) I guess it depends on your definition of regular, but it's absolutely not pushing it. I won't exaggerate anything, I'll let the numbers speak for themselves. You picked an arbitrary time frame and then gave no context compared to other programs. BTW, no one has ever said we're one of the blue bloods or truly elite teams. That's laughable. We're basically the best program to never have won a title, for whatever it's worth. Not a great award to win. But regularly expecting sweet 16's at Illinois is far from pushing it. What are the expectations at MSU? Indiana? OSU? Wisconsin? Should we have less of an expectation? These are from 2 years ago. I'm not going to bother looking up the updated numbers, as they haven't changed much. This accurately gives you where Illinois falls on the basketball landscape. So yeah, zero reason to not expect "regular" sweet 16 appearances. And if you can't figure out why Self would leave Illinois for Kansas, I can't really help you there. One of the best programs of all time, and it's confusing why you'd take that job? Oh Jesus, you're out of your mind. Loyola would be top 25? LMAO. You think Champaign is easier to recruit for Self than Kansas? OK, right. You are going on and on about how great of a program Illinois has been historically and then post this crap. Players go to coaches not schools. Loyola would be top 25 with Self, I have no doubt. The guy is a great recruiter. Do you think Cliff Alexander picked Kansas or the coach? Woud h go to Kansas because they are Kansas if Bruce Weber were coaching?Why did Charlie Villenueva decommit when Self left if was all about the school? What do these guys have in Lawrence, KS that you can't find on just about every other campus in the US? It's the coaching staff. 3 years at ILL 78-24 1 sweet 16, 1 elite 8, one second round first 3 years at KU 72-24 2 first round exits, 1 elite 8. Yes, it was just as easy for him at Illinois as it was at KU. What KU is doing now is probably what Illinois would have been doing if he had stayed. Edited January 16, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyWhiteSox Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Wait, is why a coach would want to be at Kansas instead of Illinois a serious question?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 03:00 PM) You are going on and on about how great of a program Illinois has been historically and then post this crap. Players go to coaches not schools. Loyola would be top 25 with Self, I have no doubt. The guy is a great recruiter. Do you think Cliff Alexander picked Kansas or the coach? Woud h go to Kansas because they are Kansas if Bruce Weber were coaching?Why did Charlie Villenueva decommit when Self left if was all about the school? What do these guys have in Lawrence, KS that you can't find on just about every other campus in the US? It's the coaching staff. 3 years at ILL 78-24 1 sweet 16, 1 elite 8, one second round first 3 years at KU 72-24 2 first round exits, 1 elite 8. B Yes, it was just as easy for him at Illinois as it was at KU. What KU is doing now is probably what Illinois would have been doing if he had stayed. You want to talk about posting crap. He picked Kansas. Groce at Kansas lands Cliff. There is no such thing as players only go to coaches. Must be pure coincidence that top programs always get good talent, regardless of coach. Sorry, you can only sell s***ty Loyola so much. You need more than just a coach. You need something to sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 03:19 PM) You want to talk about posting crap. He picked Kansas. Groce at Kansas lands Cliff. There is no such thing as players only go to coaches. Must be pure coincidence that top programs always get good talent, regardless of coach. Sorry, you can only sell s***ty Loyola so much. You need more than just a coach. You need something to sell. No such thing as players only go to coaches? You won't have 1 person agree with you. Recruiting is a huge part of a coaches job. The reason some of the same schools are always good is because they always have good recruiters. Illinois' recruiting dropped off. Is that because of the coach or the school? I showed you Self did better in his 3 years at Illinois than his first 3 in Kansas. Edited January 16, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 02:31 PM) Yeah, but he was the king in Champaign. Had he stayed, you add Charlie Villenueva to that title game team, and maybe they win it all. Many fans turned on him when he left. I don't think Kansas is an easier place to recruit for Self, maybe for others, than Champaign. I think if he coached Loyola they would be top 25. IMO, there had to be more. Maybe they had better toupee guys in KS. Kansas isn't easier to recruit at than Illinois? What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boogua Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 03:19 PM) You want to talk about posting crap. He picked Kansas. Groce at Kansas lands Cliff. There is no such thing as players only go to coaches. Must be pure coincidence that top programs always get good talent, regardless of coach. Sorry, you can only sell s***ty Loyola so much. You need more than just a coach. You need something to sell. You never heard that McCants, Felton, and May picked UNC specifically to play for Doherty? If they had more years of eligibility I'm sure they would have considered transferring to FAU or SMU to play for him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (SleepyWhiteSox @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 03:18 PM) Wait, is why a coach would want to be at Kansas instead of Illinois a serious question?? Fer Realz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 03:26 PM) Kansas isn't easier to recruit at than Illinois? What? Not for Self IMO. For others, definitely. He would have landed the same blue chippers he gets now in Champaign. Champaign is nothing special, but have you ever been to Lawrence, KS? Edited January 16, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Yeah I think Kansas would fall on very hard times with one bad hire. I kind of agree with Dick Allen. Nothing to do with Illinois but Lawrence and the state of Kansas seen miserable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clyons Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 03:27 PM) Fer Realz Come on. You act like the sport was invented there or something. What has Kansas ever won (besides over 2,000 games)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 QUOTE (Boogua @ Jan 16, 2014 -> 10:26 PM) You never heard that McCants, Felton, and May picked UNC specifically to play for Doherty? If they had more years of eligibility I'm sure they would have considered transferring to FAU or SMU to play for him Since you brought up SMU they are landing plenty of kids they otherwise wouldn't because of the coach. Kids commit to coaches all the time I'd say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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