Hahn says trade talks have heated up.

[TheFutureIsNear]

I can't find the article that I believe "Dayan" posted that talked about how they weren't "passing" on 2014, and it went along with what Bucket has said at the beginning of the offseason.

 

IDK, can a front office really say they are "passing" on a year even if they really are? I personally see the front office's focus on 2015. And with the core we have currently I don't think its at all unrealistic that we could be serious contenders by then. The Red Sox laid out a blue print and we should be following it.

[Balta1701]

I can't find the article that I believe "Dayan" posted that talked about how they weren't "passing" on 2014, and it went along with what Bucket has said at the beginning of the offseason.

They will keep saying that but their actions say something else. Their actions so far say "we have a team that can win if literally everything goes right". They let the guy pass already who would have filled their biggest remaining hole at a contract that doesn't seem extremely unreasonable if they wanted to compete this year (McCann). They aren't "passing" on it but they're not "all in".

[2nd_city_saint787]

They will keep saying that but their actions say something else. Their actions so far say "we have a team that can win if literally everything goes right". They let the guy pass already who would have filled their biggest remaining hole at a contract that doesn't seem extremely unreasonable if they wanted to compete this year (McCann). They aren't "passing" on it but they're not "all in".

 

I think it's quite possible that they didn't want to give up the draft pick. Hahn has said that the players that will be brought in are more than likely gonna be through trade...In which case why not Headley?

 

Isn't it already pretty much a given that they'll be trading a SP for a bat? You bring him in this year and you can work on an extension, whereas next year, if you don't trade for him he could either be A. Traded by another team and extended there. B. Resigned or C.

[caulfield12]

I think it's quite possible that they didn't want to give up the draft pick. Hahn has said that the players that will be brought in are more than likely gonna be through trade...In which case why not Headley?

 

Isn't it already pretty much a given that they'll be trading a SP for a bat? You bring him in this year and you can work on an extension, whereas next year, if you don't trade for him he could either be A. Traded by another team and extended there. B. Resigned or C.

 

 

It would have to be like the Freddie Garcia deal, where they felt 90% sure at the time of the trade they could get the extension signed...or the trade was predicated on a two week window in which the White Sox would try to negotiate an extension or the trade wouldn't be approved, since the White Sox would only be renting Headley for one "non competitive" season.

[caulfield12]

IDK, can a front office really say they are "passing" on a year even if they really are? I personally see the front office's focus on 2015. And with the core we have currently I don't think its at all unrealistic that we could be serious contenders by then. The Red Sox laid out a blue print and we should be following it.

 

 

Except they already had an MVP caliber player in Ellsbury, MVP's in Ortiz and Pedroia, Jon Lester...and a minor league system that was waiting to provide the likes of Bogaerts, Iglesias, Middlebrooks, Nava, Dubront, etc.

 

It's very hard to compare the two situations, other than last place teams trying to get to first place....whether it's their existing major league 25 man rosters, their minor league talent or their overall budgets.

 

They were in a position to add or keep "glue" guys like Victorino, Gomes, Salty and Napoli...along with Tanaka. The White Sox aren't close to being in that position where they're just a couple of players away from being one of the better teams in the AL.

 

Of course they got "lucky" with Lackey and Tanaka, but that always tends to happen for teams that surprisingly finish in 1st place.

[2nd_city_saint787]

It would have to be like the Freddie Garcia deal, where they felt 90% sure at the time of the trade they could get the extension signed...or the trade was predicated on a two week window in which the White Sox would try to negotiate an extension or the trade wouldn't be approved, since the White Sox would only be renting Headley for one "non competitive" season.

 

Well ya, I agree. It's obviously predicated on whether they can extend him. I agree that any other thought process makes "ZERO" sense.

 

I don't agree with the final sentence though. I think even if Headley gives us something in between his 2012 and 2013 stats, lets say .265/.355/.450 20/80, and Abreu is who we hope he is that team certainly can be competitive.

 

 

[brian310]

I wonder what it would cost to get both Headley and Grandal from San Diego

[southsider2k5]

Except they already had an MVP caliber player in Ellsbury, MVP's in Ortiz and Pedroia, Jon Lester...and a minor league system that was waiting to provide the likes of Bogaerts, Iglesias, Middlebrooks, Nava, Dubront, etc.

 

It's very hard to compare the two situations, other than last place teams trying to get to first place....whether it's their existing major league 25 man rosters, their minor league talent or their overall budgets.

 

They were in a position to add or keep "glue" guys like Victorino, Gomes, Salty and Napoli...along with Tanaka. The White Sox aren't close to being in that position where they're just a couple of players away from being one of the better teams in the AL.

 

Of course they got "lucky" with Lackey and Tanaka, but that always tends to happen for teams that surprisingly finish in 1st place.

 

They also don't have nearly the fan support that Boston has which enables them to spend high amounts of money.

[Eminor3rd]

Also, the Red Sox made a bunch of relatively short-term, late-offseason signings because they wanted to have a shot at being competitive without mortgaging the future. The fact that everything clicked for them is not an endorsement for mortgaging the future. If you want the White Sox to follow the Red Sox blueprint, you need Hahn to be as patient as possible. The types of offers that get players to sign this early are the offers that are on the top end of the player's value -- i.e.e the ones that require teams to mortgage the future to some degree.

[brian310]

With the Cards infield mostly being left-handed (Adams, Wong, Carpenter) and Mo during the press conference saying that he is looking to improve the bench, do you think the Sox would be able to possibly unload Keppinger on the Cards? Right handed bench bat capable of playing all three of those positions. Could possibly end up being a platoon player with Wong if he struggles early on.

[brian310]

I posted this in another thread. As I noticed the same thing about their 1B-2B-3B all being left-handed. Looking at their roster as is you would think that Kozma would be the backup infielder. Kepp doesn't seem like a Cardinal but I agree the fit is there.

 

Kepp would at least be a veteran presence off the bench. Kozma could stick on the roster as a backup late-inning defensive replacement at short for Peralta. I don't know if there is room for Descalso since he is also left-handed and pretty much all their starters are as well unless he has any outfield experience. Then he could be a Skip Schumaker type player for them coming off the bench as an infielder/outfielder.

 

They can go with a bench of:

catcher LH or RH

Keppinger RH (1B/2B/3B)

Kozma RH (2B/SS)

Descalso LH (2B/3B/SS/OF)

Bourjos RH/Jay LH (OF/late inning replacement for Craig in right)

Edited November 25, 2013 by chisoxfan310

[brian310]

I just saw that Jones got DFA'd. You think Pittsburgh would have any interest in Adam Dunn as a platoon partner with Gaby Sanchez? People will probably say that Jones is poor man's Adam Dunn, but Dunn actually would homer and get on-base more. Maybe Dunn plus cash for (?)? Then we could slide Viciedo into the DH/1B role and get a more athletic outfielder to play center or left.

[Kyyle23]

I just saw that Jones got DFA'd. You think Pittsburgh would have any interest in Adam Dunn as a platoon partner with Gaby Sanchez? People will probably say that Jones is poor man's Adam Dunn, but Dunn actually would homer and get on-base more. Maybe Dunn plus cash for (?)? Then we could slide Viciedo into the DH/1B role and get a more athletic outfielder to play center or left.

 

Dunn would be an expensive platoon for Pittsburgh. That team isnt exactly free spending

[brian310]

Dunn would be an expensive platoon for Pittsburgh. That team isnt exactly free spending

 

That's why I was saying include some cash

[harfman77]

I just saw that Jones got DFA'd. You think Pittsburgh would have any interest in Adam Dunn as a platoon partner with Gaby Sanchez? People will probably say that Jones is poor man's Adam Dunn, but Dunn actually would homer and get on-base more. Maybe Dunn plus cash for (?)? Then we could slide Viciedo into the DH/1B role and get a more athletic outfielder to play center or left.

 

Probably more likely they bring Morneau back. I think Dunn has a market, but it is not to a small market/payroll NL team. If the Mariners fail to re-sign Morales, they could be a landing spot for Dunn, along with the entire AL East and possibly the Mets.

[witesoxfan]

That's why I was saying include some cash

 

For it to make sense for the Pirates to bring Dunn in to be a platoon partner, the White Sox would have to eat $13 million of his salary and the Pirates would trade a piece back that is virtually meaningless, not more than organizational depth.

 

Really, for it to make sense for the White Sox, the most they can realistically include is $10 million, and you need a half-ass decent prospect in return in that situation - a player with Brandon Jacobs' ceiling would be fine. If you can't get that, you may as well hang onto Dunn until the trade deadline and attempt to deal him then when the demand is going to be greater for his services and you can likely just get someone to eat the remainder of his salary (or pick up a smaller amount at that time).

[ChiSox59]

For it to make sense for the Pirates to bring Dunn in to be a platoon partner, the White Sox would have to eat $13 million of his salary and the Pirates would trade a piece back that is virtually meaningless, not more than organizational depth.

 

Really, for it to make sense for the White Sox, the most they can realistically include is $10 million, and you need a half-ass decent prospect in return in that situation - a player with Brandon Jacobs' ceiling would be fine. If you can't get that, you may as well hang onto Dunn until the trade deadline and attempt to deal him then when the demand is going to be greater for his services and you can likely just get someone to eat the remainder of his salary (or pick up a smaller amount at that time).

 

Trading Dunn + anything over $5M for anything less than a good prospect would be such a dumb move. I am no Dunn fan, but if the SOX have any chance at competing next year, Dunn is going to have a big year. If he does have a big year, you can move him midseason for a decent prospect and probably kick in no $$. Paying Dunn $10M to play on another team all season is not a good move.

[witesoxfan]

Trading Dunn + anything over $5M for anything less than a good prospect would be such a dumb move. I am no Dunn fan, but if the SOX have any chance at competing next year, Dunn is going to have a big year. If he does have a big year, you can move him midseason for a decent prospect and probably kick in no $$. Paying Dunn $10M to play on another team all season is not a good move.

 

$10 mill is the bare minimum. I'd rather not give up more than $5 million, but if the prospect coming back is good enough, you can do it because it serves essentially the same purpose as trading him on July 31st in that instance. You can't include $10 million and then get Mr. 83 MPH Fastball in return.

 

The most likely scenario is that Dunn is the Sox cleanup hitter on Opening Day.

[ChiSox59]

$10 mill is the bare minimum. I'd rather not give up more than $5 million, but if the prospect coming back is good enough, you can do it because it serves essentially the same purpose as trading him on July 31st in that instance. You can't include $10 million and then get Mr. 83 MPH Fastball in return.

 

The most likely scenario is that Dunn is the Sox cleanup hitter on Opening Day.

 

As he should be.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Isn't it possible that Dunn's value is higher right now than it will be at the break though? He was having a pretty good 2nd half until he fell flat out his face his last month. What if he is hitting .195/.320 with 12 HR's at the deadline? We could easily end up stuck with him for the entire season.

 

I'm not saying we should flat out dump him, but I think Hanhn should be doing his due diligence on moving him (if there is a market at all). I agree that $5 million should be the limit of what we should be willing to chip in though.

[sammy esposito]

Isn't it possible that Dunn's value is higher right now than it will be at the break though? He was having a pretty good 2nd half until he fell flat out his face his last month. What if he is hitting .195/.320 with 12 HR's at the deadline? We could easily end up stuck with him for the entire season.

 

I'm not saying we should flat out dump him, but I think Hanhn should be doing his due diligence on moving him (if there is a market at all). I agree that $5 million should be the limit of what we should be willing to chip in though.

We traded for Thome who had a big contract from Philly that worked for us. Why wouldn't there be any takers in say the national league that could use a player with his high obp and power enhanced by a huge discount.

 

[Chicago White Sox]

We traded for Thome who had a big contract from Philly that worked for us. Why wouldn't there be any takers in say the national league that could use a player with his high obp and power enhanced by a huge discount.

Dunn had a .320 OBP last year, which would put him 97th overall in baseball. Above-average sure, but I definitely would not qualify that as high. Unfortunately as a true three outcome player, that low of an OBP simply doesn't cut it.

[caulfield12]

I'll give you Bogaerts and Iglesias as help from the minors but...

 

Middlebrooks started for them at 3B in '12 and started and ended the year as their 3B this year.

 

Nava is 30 and had two different seasons under his belt.

 

Dubront played three seasons from '10-'12 in Boston.

 

This year was Salty's fourth season playing for the Red Sox.

 

Tanaka is a free agent and has never played for the Red Sox.

 

Not sure how they got lucky with Lackey as they signed him to a 5yr/83million dollar contract 3 off-seasons ago.

 

Besides all the players you were wrong on they did add Gomes, Victorino and Napoli last season. Along with Drew, Dempster (trade then resigned) and Uehara.

 

Off the dome I think Gomes was 2/10, Victorino was 3/39, Napoli was 1/5, Drew 1/9, Dempster 3/39 and Koji 2/9.

 

While I wouldn't necessarily make all of these signings, none of them are outrageous to an extent that we couldn't assume them. Obviously the Red Sox still had their core of Lester, Bucholz, Ortiz, Pedroia and Ellsbury and that is truly the difference. Not the level of homegrown talent they have or the FA pick ups they made last season. The difference really is that a guy like Victorino or Drew or Napoli will sign their aforementioned contracts to play at Fenway Park for a franchise like the Red Sox. Would those guys accept the same contracts with our White Sox if the Red Sox never offered the contracts? Definitely not. Their advantages lies in prestige, fan base, history and likelihood of competing.

 

I do think that history will look back on the BoSox very kindly considering they are a major market team reluctant to pay players these outrageous contract demands. The Dodgers, Yankees, Angels (especially), Tigers and Rangers (to a lesser extent) will eventually shoot themselves in the leg in this market where the Red Sox don't have any long term liability or potential for long term liability.

 

 

I meant Uehara, not Tanaka (unless he signs with Boston too, haha).

 

And I forgot to add Buchholz to the "core" list of Ellsbury, Pedroia, Ortiz and Lester.

 

Other than Chris Sale, there's nothing comparable with the White Sox...unless you start counting Garcia, Abreu and even Viciedo.

 

 

The other problem is that the timing was right for them to add "cast offs" (just like the 04-05 White Sox offseason) at bargain basement prices.

 

Let's say we were SOMEHOW able to add Saltalamacchia, Napoli long term for DH and to hit against LHP for Dunn and Victorino for the outfield.

 

We'd still be an 81-85 win team, arguably.

 

And that would be adding at least $30 million per year to the payroll with those three, if not $35 million. Would anyone have that team picked higher than 3rd place going into 2014?

 

And even if they ALSO were fortunate enough to sign Uehara, you'd have a Top 3 closer in the majors on a .500 team.

 

 

Last offseason, when the White Sox essentially did nothing, was the time to strike in the free agent market. Now it's too late. Look at the contracts that Drew, Salty and Napoli are going to end up, with compared to their previous contracts. Or Granderson. Or Kendrys Morales. Or even Chris Young.

Edited November 26, 2013 by caulfield12

[TheFutureIsNear]

We traded for Thome who had a big contract from Philly that worked for us. Why wouldn't there be any takers in say the national league that could use a player with his high obp and power enhanced by a huge discount.

 

You can't even compare Dunn to Thome circa 2005. Thome had a down year the year before we traded for because of injury. He only had 242 AB's. And even despite .205 average he still manged a .360 OBP. The year before that he hit .279/.396/.581. Dunn has been bad for 3 straight years. Plus he can't play 1B full time.

 

Dunn is a late desperate grab at adding a power bat for 1 of the AL contenders. Yankees? Rangers? Oakland?

[witesoxfan]

Isn't it possible that Dunn's value is higher right now than it will be at the break though? He was having a pretty good 2nd half until he fell flat out his face his last month. What if he is hitting .195/.320 with 12 HR's at the deadline? We could easily end up stuck with him for the entire season.

 

I'm not saying we should flat out dump him, but I think Hanhn should be doing his due diligence on moving him (if there is a market at all). I agree that $5 million should be the limit of what we should be willing to chip in though.

 

Sure, it probably is. The problem is that the difference in what you are expecting and what you would get is too significant at this point. I just don't see any way any team is going go take Dunn. As I have pointed out before, Hafner signed for $2 mill last year. He was more injury prone, but expecting a team to TRADE for Dunn while taking pm $10 mill is frankly expecting too much.

 

Come the deadline, you ask for a guy who can hit it a long ways or can throw it 95 mph and you're happy no matter what his numbers look like and teams are more willing to take a chance on a guy like Dunn.

 

If they can deal him, great, grand, wonderful. I don't see it happening.

Edited November 26, 2013 by witesoxfan