witesoxfan Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 10:40 AM) Ok, well I'm just telling you what was written over the offseason. I'm not going vouch for the validity of Jon Heyman or whoever it was that said these things. Pretty sure bucket mentioned it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 10:31 AM) You were the one who called out the Viciedo supporters. Not me. I just pointed out if that is irrational, you also give some irrational support. As a guy who had substantial trade value, not a guy who does or doesn't have some prayer of being good ever. I don't know how you don't see the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian310 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I'm pretty sure Hahn asked for Franklin when we didn't Davidson yet meaning the plan would have been for Franklin to play third. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 10:45 AM) As a guy who had substantial trade value, not a guy who does or doesn't have some prayer of being good ever. I don't know how you don't see the difference. One last time, this is what I was responding to: You are also talking about guys that are the exception to the rule. No one is saying that the Sox should cut bait with Viciedo or give him away for peanuts or stop playing him all together, but I don't think I've ever seen this much support for a guy who has never shown anything but flashes. Not trade value, support. I don't know what Viciedo's trade value is, nor do I care. I still think he can be a very good hitter. He had a real horrible streak. Eventually he will get hot again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 10:53 AM) One last time, this is what I was responding to: You are also talking about guys that are the exception to the rule. No one is saying that the Sox should cut bait with Viciedo or give him away for peanuts or stop playing him all together, but I don't think I've ever seen this much support for a guy who has never shown anything but flashes. Not trade value, support. I don't know what Viciedo's trade value is, nor do I care. I still think he can be a very good hitter. He had a real horrible streak. Eventually he will get hot again. I'm telling you that the "support" that wite is referring to is the "support" that has been given, in this thread, regarding Viciedo's trade value. Specifically that he should have some because of the fact that he might be a flukey late breakout. That is what "this much support" means here. That is the context of the conversation. That is why Felipe Paulino does not belong here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 08:35 AM) I don't think anyone has said Ackley has value. If they have, they're wrong. You are also talking about guys that are the exception to the rule. No one is saying that the Sox should cut bait with Viciedo or give him away for peanuts or stop playing him all together, but I don't think I've ever seen this much support for a guy who has never shown anything but flashes. Gordon Beckham. Brian Anderson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 11:00 AM) Gordon Beckham. Brian Anderson. Haha good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 10:59 AM) I'm telling you that the "support" that wite is referring to is the "support" that has been given, in this thread, regarding Viciedo's trade value. Specifically that he should have some because of the fact that he might be a flukey late breakout. That is what "this much support" means here. That is the context of the conversation. That is why Felipe Paulino does not belong here. Except he told me I was correct. Are you guys one and the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 To be fair, Paulino's flash was over a longer period of time, as Viciedo's never really done anything more than 2-3 weeks at a time, but my support was not nearly as drastic as this. I said I thought he could be a good pitcher and my "bold prediction" was that he'd be the 3rd best starting pitcher on the Sox (again, that's not a super high expectation nor ceiling for my thoughts, essentially stating that I'd hope he be better than John Danks). The other people in this thread are comparing Viciedo to Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion. He may have the talent to do that, but Paulino also has the talent to be a top of the rotation starter. A lot of guys have the talent to do certain things. To actually make the comparison is ridiculous. Never did I said that I thought Paulino was going to be a top of the rotation starter nor compare him to some of the best pitchers in the game. Regarding their trade values, Viciedo does not have a lot. He's about to get expensive and there's not a lot of team control left. Maybe he goes to the Blue Jays and they turn him into Jose Bau-tres-ta, but probably not. Regarding Paulino's trade value, LOL. Paulino blows and I was wrong on how well the signing worked, as were a ton of other folks on here. Let's move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 DA, how many times do you want Wite to tell you he was wrong about Paulino? He has done it multiple times in multiple threads. Let it go, stop rubbing his face in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 11:50 AM) DA, how many times do you want Wite to tell you he was wrong about Paulino? He has done it multiple times in multiple threads. Let it go, stop rubbing his face in it. That wasn't my objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 11:51 AM) That wasn't my objective. It was the result Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) The argument about Viciedo's home and road stats deserves another look. What compelling reason is there for him not to perform better (especially in the AL) if he's playing 81 home games in a different stadium? 2011-2013 combined on the road, 523 AB's, 22 homers, 75 RBI's, 771 OPS 2014 779 OPS at home vs. 616 at home, projected over a full season it would be 24 homers and 68 RBI's. Essentially, season after season for 3 1/2 years now he has been a guy who will give you 22-24 homers and a 771-779 OPS EVERYWHERE BUT USCF, when the average for a MLB LFer is closer to 720-730. Not to mention the fact that he's only 25. As a team of radio broadcasters was saying yesterday, it's easy to go out and find veteran relievers in the July trade market, it's MUCH more difficult to find power hitters in an era with less and less power by the year. Another former White Sox who "clicked" later in his career, Michael Morse (and yes, it's hard to separate exactly how much of it was his evolution as a hitter vs. PED's, but clearly it can't be 100% the latter or he would playing at AAA Iowa with Manny Ramirez). Yes, we can compare Paulino to Viciedo or Beckham all we want, but it's apples and oranges. Edited July 1, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 11:57 AM) The argument about Viciedo's home and road stats deserves another look. What compelling reason is there for him not to perform better (especially in the AL) if he's playing 81 home games in a different stadium? 2011-2013 combined on the road, 523 AB's, 22 homers, 75 RBI's, 771 OPS 2014 779 OPS at home vs. 616 at home, projected over a full season it would be 24 homers and 68 RBI's. Essentially, season after season for 3 1/2 years now he has been a guy who will give you 22-24 homers and a 771-779 OPS EVERYWHERE BUT USCF, when the average for a MLB LFer is closer to 720-730. Not to mention the fact that he's only 25. As a team of radio broadcasters was saying yesterday, it's easy to go out and find veteran relievers in the July trade market, it's MUCH more difficult to find power hitters in an era with less and less power by the year. Another former White Sox who "clicked" later in his career, Michael Morse (and yes, it's hard to separate exactly how much of it was his evolution as a hitter vs. PED's, but clearly it can't be 100% the latter or he would playing at AAA Iowa with Manny Ramirez). Yes, we can compare Paulino to Viciedo or Beckham all we want, but it's apples and oranges. Morse has literally had one true good season in the majors, and has just been injured or in a platoon situation the rest of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 10:22 AM) I think it was during the winter meetings that the rumor came out and was pretty much confirmed by other sources. Word was that JZ called Hahn and made the offer of Ackley for Viciedo, and Hahn countered with Viciedo for Franklin instead, but JZ didn't respond. Honestly Franklin doesn't do much for me either, but I sure as heck don't want a failed over hyped 2B prospect and a 1B who can't hit either. And none of these guys should be in the discussion for Alexei. We need real prospects, even if A or AA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeky Magee Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 09:25 AM) I don't think that is true at all. I am certain Hahn wouldn't have traded Viciedo for Franklin. Why on earth not? I'd be incredibly disappointed if he wouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 12:06 PM) Why on earth not? I'd be incredibly disappointed if he wouldn't. Why? Not a great fielder, we have several MI prospects and his offensive numbers stink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 12:04 PM) Honestly Franklin doesn't do much for me either, but I sure as heck don't want a failed over hyped 2B prospect and a 1B who can't hit either. And none of these guys should be in the discussion for Alexei. We need real prospects, even if A or AA. Why is he a failed prospect? He has less than a season of MLB ABs under his belt. Guys don't have to be phenoms to be good players. My whole point is that the longer a guy fails at the ML level, the less likely it is that he'll eventually succeed. Viciedo is 25 with 3.5 seasons of ball under his belt, whereas Franklin is 23 with like .75 ML seasons under his belt. Both guys were considered to have similar ceilings at one point. To me, there's no questions that Franklin is the better prospect today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Knock it off gents. Move on and focus on the actual discussion at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 11:00 AM) Morse has literally had one true good season in the majors, and has just been injured or in a platoon situation the rest of his career. And this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 12:50 PM) And this year? What about it? Am I supposed to forget about the rest of his career? This is just like your obsession with Chris Carter because he started off hot for the A's a few years back. That doesnt make his career all the sudden outstanding Morse is what he is. He is streaky and can hit it hard, but he isnt reliable. If he was, then he wouldnt be on his 4th team in 2 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 11:55 AM) What about it? Am I supposed to forget about the rest of his career? This is just like your obsession with Chris Carter because he started off hot for the A's a few years back. That doesnt make his career all the sudden outstanding Morse is what he is. He is streaky and can hit it hard, but he isnt reliable. If he was, then he wouldnt be on his 4th team in 2 years Chris Carter didn't have four consecutive years between a 772 and 910 OPS. And he didn't have the disadvantage of trying to hit at Safeco last season, either. He is only 32 years old, after all. I think it's a perfectly good example when he put up those numbers at ages 27-30, and his career OPS is over 800. That's a solid/productive player in my book. Edited July 1, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feeky Magee Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 11:17 AM) Why? Not a great fielder, we have several MI prospects and his offensive numbers stink. The general consensus seems to be that he can be a below-average shortstop and plus anywhere else. He has torn up the minors on a much more consistent basis than any of our MI prospects and in his one almost-full season in the major leagues hit at about Viciedo-level, without being an utter liability on defence like Dayan. Currency is currency, I wouldn't get too preoccupied about having too many MI, if they're at a better level than what you're giving up to get them, they should get you more if you do eventually have to clear a logjam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 1, 2014 -> 12:23 PM) Why is he a failed prospect? He has less than a season of MLB ABs under his belt. Guys don't have to be phenoms to be good players. My whole point is that the longer a guy fails at the ML level, the less likely it is that he'll eventually succeed. Viciedo is 25 with 3.5 seasons of ball under his belt, whereas Franklin is 23 with like .75 ML seasons under his belt. Both guys were considered to have similar ceilings at one point. To me, there's no questions that Franklin is the better prospect today. Ackley is the failed prospect; Smoak is the 1B who can't hit. Franklin I just don't think is very good and see no real reason in trading for him with several good MI prospects in our minor league system. We can find other players with bloated PCL stats who don't play good D and who played poorly at the ML level. Note, Seattle won't even play him in front of a guy hitting. 630. It's amazing how failures elsewhere somehow have value. Edited July 1, 2014 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 That's the issue. Seattle has never been 100% comfortable defensively with Franklin at SS. It's like Micah Johnson at 2B. If he has to play 2B, his value goes down considerably. Otherwise, they wouldn't be playing Miller, because Franklin has a lot more upside offensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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