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9/8 vs Oakland A's

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QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 8, 2014 -> 09:51 PM)
Flowers has gone out and earned the starting spot for next year. I have never been his biggest fan, but it's hard to argue against him when compared to starting catchers around the league.

 

Idk. I mean if you look at the line, it still isn't really starting caliber.

 

.241/.298/.382 (89 wRC+) might not KILL you at C, but it's still a hole that should be upgraded. ANd it's coming with a .352 BABIP, which would be normal-ish if not for that insane 900-BABIP April he had.

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Very nice. Flowers has hung in all year.

There are numerous holes to be filled before worrying about catching.

 

Guerra was a nice pickup. He'll be good next year, especially if we get a couple of top end bullpen guys.

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 05:00 AM)
Idk. I mean if you look at the line, it still isn't really starting caliber.

 

.241/.298/.382 (89 wRC+) might not KILL you at C, but it's still a hole that should be upgraded. ANd it's coming with a .352 BABIP, which would be normal-ish if not for that insane 900-BABIP April he had.

Isn't catcher a black hole all over baseball now? Fathom's point might have been that considering the crap at catcher throughout baseball, Tyler actually may be acceptable.

At least he battles. Like I said I hope he flips off all fans, including me. You can tell he's a competitor. He probably actually gets the most out of his ability unlike guys like DeAza, Viciedo, etc.

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QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 8, 2014 -> 11:10 PM)
Isn't catcher a black hole all over baseball now? Fathom's point might have been that considering the crap at catcher throughout baseball, Tyler actually may be acceptable.

At least he battles. Like I said I hope he flips off all fans, including me. You can tell he's a competitor. He probably actually gets the most out of his ability unlike guys like DeAza, Viciedo, etc.

 

I would think so. It is not a glamorous position.

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QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 8, 2014 -> 10:45 PM)
Maybe Tyler will hit another homer to win it at some point.

He's a star!

 

You gotta be bleeping me!

 

Lol what a finish.

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A's and Brewers really sinking fast...Royals, Tigers, A's and Mariners fighting for those last three spots.

 

Amazingly, the M's might have the best pitching of all the teams (if they make it), and the worst offense. Although I'd have to say the Royals are a close second in terms of abysmal offense (only Gordon, Perez and Cain are threats right now)...so you can say KC is incredibly boring or balanced in averageness.

 

Scherzer and Vargas tmrw, so that sets up a huge battle for first place between Shields and Porcello WED, as I would expect Max to shut them down...if you add in that 1/2 game swing for the Indians/Royals bottom of the 9th, KC could easily be out of first place if their offense continues to struggle and they overuse Holland/Escobar/W.Davis.

 

I'm sorry. I was too busy gawking at your avatar to hear what you were saying.

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If the A's somehow choke, it would make that Lester trade look absolutely awful. The Samardzjia and Hammel trade wouldn't look good either considering the prospects they gave up for a rental and 2 years of a decent, but not great pitcher.

 

Part of the reason they've been so bad is because they haven't hit at all recently. Although Cespedes wasn't a world beater, he did provide some value in the middle of that lineup that they really miss right now. Plus, after Cespedes left guys who hit behind him like Moss kind of fell off a cliff.

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QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 8, 2014 -> 10:38 PM)
Those frat guys should be ejected now. Somebody should tweet it out to the Sox front office. You are not allowed to do that. That's an offense that would get you kicked out of the Cell if anybody noticed.

 

 

Where was they sitting these guys And wat inning u see it.

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QUOTE (chw42 @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 12:09 AM)
If the A's somehow choke, it would make that Lester trade look absolutely awful. The Samardzjia and Hammel trade wouldn't look good either considering the prospects they gave up for a rental and 2 years of a decent, but not great pitcher.

 

Part of the reason they've been so bad is because they haven't hit at all recently. Although Cespedes wasn't a world beater, he did provide some value in the middle of that lineup that they really miss right now. Plus, after Cespedes left guys who hit behind him like Moss kind of fell off a cliff.

 

Well to be fair, Lester and Samardzija have pitched really well in Oakland. It's not like they have been duds, so I don't think those trades were failures, it's just that their offense suddenly fell off a cliff.

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http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/pos.../true/minpa/300

 

Who's going to improve on Flowers from all those catchers (and might legitimately be available)?

 

Sure, Russell Martin, but there will be 10-12 teams after him. Then you've got names like Ruiz (too old for our window), Gattis (too expensive in terms of talent to acquire and so-so defense), etc.

 

Flowers is out OPS-ing Jason Castro and that's yet another case of why would you give up something significant like Tim Anderson/Montas/Danish to acquire what might not even be an upgrade?

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 01:16 AM)
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/pos.../true/minpa/300

 

Who's going to improve on Flowers from all those catchers (and might legitimately be available)?

 

Sure, Russell Martin, but there will be 10-12 teams after him. Then you've got names like Ruiz (too old for our window), Gattis (too expensive in terms of talent to acquire and so-so defense), etc.

 

Flowers is out OPS-ing Jason Castro and that's yet another case of why would you give up something significant like Tim Anderson/Montas/Danish to acquire what might not even be an upgrade?

 

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 8, 2014 -> 10:10 PM)
Isn't catcher a black hole all over baseball now? Fathom's point might have been that considering the crap at catcher throughout baseball, Tyler actually may be acceptable.

At least he battles. Like I said I hope he flips off all fans, including me. You can tell he's a competitor. He probably actually gets the most out of his ability unlike guys like DeAza, Viciedo, etc.

 

Well, Flowers is ranked 30th among catchers in the MLB in wRC+ (more accurate, league adjusted version of OPS). So, he's still substantially below average, no matter what you think of catcher offense.

 

I'm not trying to crap on the guy -- I give him credit for turning into a decent backup -- but he still represents the most obvious spot in the lineup (along with Viciedo) to try to get a guy who is average or better.

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QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 8, 2014 -> 10:45 PM)
Maybe Tyler will hit another homer to win it at some point.

Prophetic.

 

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 06:49 AM)
Well, Flowers is ranked 30th among catchers in the MLB in wRC+ (more accurate, league adjusted version of OPS). So, he's still substantially below average, no matter what you think of catcher offense.

That's a mischaracterization - it looks like you're including any catchers with any plate appearances at all, in which case he is 30th out of 97. And there are guys ahead of him with 15, 20, 40 games played. The league wRC+ for catchers is 94. Flowers now sits at 96. That doesn't hit me as substantially below average.

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QUOTE (chw42 @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 12:09 AM)
If the A's somehow choke, it would make that Lester trade look absolutely awful. The Samardzjia and Hammel trade wouldn't look good either considering the prospects they gave up for a rental and 2 years of a decent, but not great pitcher.

 

Part of the reason they've been so bad is because they haven't hit at all recently. Although Cespedes wasn't a world beater, he did provide some value in the middle of that lineup that they really miss right now. Plus, after Cespedes left guys who hit behind him like Moss kind of fell off a cliff.

I think the Shark trade was the real bad trade.

They got the ace or near ace they needed with Lester, and for an okay, not great, player.

With Shark, they dumped one of the top prospects in baseball.

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 09:23 AM)
I think the Shark trade was the real bad trade.

They got the ace or near ace they needed with Lester, and for an okay, not great, player.

With Shark, they dumped one of the top prospects in baseball.

 

I think both are terrible. They got their ace at the expense of one of the only offensive bright spots they had, and they had to go out and get Adam Dunn in order to try and recover some of the power. The shark trade is bad for the future, the Lester trade was bad for the Now.

 

If the A's fall out of the race, which 2 months ago seemed impossible, these will both be absolute busts of trades

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QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 01:42 AM)
Well to be fair, Lester and Samardzija have pitched really well in Oakland. It's not like they have been duds, so I don't think those trades were failures, it's just that their offense suddenly fell off a cliff.

 

One of those trades gave away one of their best hitters for a pitcher they didn't really need.

 

They were already stacked with pitching. That's what would make the Lester trade look bad. A lot of people had the exact same train of thought when the trade was made.

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QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 08:57 AM)
Prophetic.

 

 

That's a mischaracterization - it looks like you're including any catchers with any plate appearances at all, in which case he is 30th out of 97. And there are guys ahead of him with 15, 20, 40 games played. The league wRC+ for catchers is 94. Flowers now sits at 96. That doesn't hit me as substantially below average.

 

He was at 89 yesterday, the two homer game brought him up a bit. I Think Eminor3rd was using yesterday's numbers.

Edited by chw42

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QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 08:57 AM)
Prophetic.

 

 

That's a mischaracterization - it looks like you're including any catchers with any plate appearances at all, in which case he is 30th out of 97. And there are guys ahead of him with 15, 20, 40 games played. The league wRC+ for catchers is 94. Flowers now sits at 96. That doesn't hit me as substantially below average.

 

Ah, it must not have updated last night's yet -- he was sitting at 89 yesterday.

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QUOTE (chw42 @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 09:47 AM)
He was at 89 yesterday, the two homer game brought him up a bit. I Think Eminor3rd was using yesterday's numbers.

 

Whoops. yeah, thanks :D

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QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 11:01 AM)
Ah, it must not have updated last night's yet -- he was sitting at 89 yesterday.

Fair enough, saw the time of post as this morning and figured it was up-to-date. Come on Fangraphs, get with the program.

 

Side note - Flowers' WPA last night was an even 1.0 Gotta be close to tops for a single game this season. Anybody know if the WPA for every game by every player is on a leaderboard somewhere?

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QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 11:08 AM)
Fair enough, saw the time of post as this morning and figured it was up-to-date. Come on Fangraphs, get with the program.

 

Side note - Flowers' WPA last night was an even 1.0 Gotta be close to tops for a single game this season. Anybody know if the WPA for every game by every player is on a leaderboard somewhere?

 

It was up to date. They update it in real-time actually.

 

 

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QUOTE (chw42 @ Sep 9, 2014 -> 11:23 AM)
It was up to date. They update it in real-time actually.

 

I was looking at it last night at the end of the game, assuming it was up to date. It had his game scores listed, but still said 89. Must just be a short delay.

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Quite frankly, if one game has that large an effect, he wasn't substantially anything, good or bad, coming into it, relative to his peers.

 

Looking back at all the catcher trade targets that have been discussed before and during this season, few seem worthy of the probable cost, relative to Flowers' $/performance. He's 14th in catching WAR - middle of the pack. Unless Martin is unexpectedly cheap, which I can't imagine, I'm now in the camp of utilizing the available resources elsewhere.

Edited by Stan Bahnsen

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