Dick Allen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 01:39 PM) Viciedo wasn't tendered a contract. He also has a contract for the next season now. You can only tender contracts to pre-arb players and to players awarded deal through arb. Otherwise the Sox could have terminated Dunn's deal for 30 days salary in 2012, and there is no reason under God's green earth this wouldn't have been done. He certainly WAS tendered a contract, or else he wouldn't have had anything to sign. And if you go down further, you will see that a contract for the "next" season would be 2016. People wouldn't be playing in spring training if they had not signed a contract for the 2015 season. Dunn's contract was guaranteed. The guys signing multi-year contracts are usually guaranteed. Except for guys like Sale and Q, the guys that have their arb years bought out with multi-year deals, the pre-free agent guys all pretty much could be terminated in spring training or before, and only get a partial amount. I am 99.9999% sure the contract Viciedo signed can be terminated. Edited January 14, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 01:47 PM) He certainly WAS tendered a contract, or else he wouldn't have had anything to sign. And if you go down further, you will see that a contract for the "next" season would be 2016. People wouldn't be playing in spring training if they had not signed a contract for the 2015 season. Dunn's contract was guaranteed. The guys signing multi-year contracts are usually guaranteed. I am 99.9999% sure the contract Viciedo signed can be terminated. He didn't sign his tender deal. He and the team signed a new deal at $4.4 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 01:50 PM) He didn't sign his tender deal. He and the team signed a new deal at $4.4 million. He was tendered a contract. A non-tender becomes a free agent. Do you really want to say Dayan Viciedo was not tendered a contract but signed a contract for $4.4 million? You do realize that does not make any sense don't you? Edited January 14, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 01:52 PM) He was tendered a contract. A non-tender becomes a free agent. He was tendered a contract. He didn't sign it. He decided on arbitration. He and the team negotiated a separate deal outside of arbitration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 01:54 PM) He was tendered a contract. He didn't sign it. He decided on arbitration. He and the team negotiated a separate deal outside of arbitration. Yes, but he was tendered a contract. Every player signed to a contract has been tendered a contract. The offering of arbitration is tendering a contract even though no contract had been offered. You must be arguing to argue. Edited January 14, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 01:59 PM) Yes, but he was tendered a contract. Every player signed to a contract has been tendered a contract. Then why didn't Adam Dunn get released for 30 days salary? Viciedo has a guaranteed deal now, not an arbitration award, and not a tender deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 02:01 PM) Then why didn't Adam Dunn get released for 30 days salary? He was on a multi-year, guaranteed deal. When Viciedo becomes a free agent he can gain the upper hand and get that kind of deal, or if he is good enough the team wants to buyout his arb years like Sale, same deal. As long as he is going year to year before free agency, he will be subject to termination pay. The exact same thing happened to the White Sox new utility man last year. He signed a $3.5 million contract to avoid arbitration, and was released: Ken RosenthalVerified account @Ken_Rosenthal· Bonifacio clears waivers at 2 p.m. ET tomorrow. At that point would become free agent. #Royals would owe him about $575K in termination pay. Edited January 14, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Dumb question, but is it possible Viciedo made mechanical changes to improve against RHP which ultimately affected his ability against LHP? It's just amazing how much he's regressed against LHP over the past two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 02:30 PM) Dumb question, but is it possible Viciedo made mechanical changes to improve against RHP which ultimately affected his ability against LHP? It's just amazing how much he's regressed against LHP over the past two years. There seems to be so few non White Sox LHP. He only had 151 PA vs. lefties. I just think he was going bad when he was facing them. As I have stated a few times, I do think they will trade him, but if not, see where he's at in spring training. If it looks like more of the same, let him go. He obviously has ability, but so do a lot of guys who never really make it. Edited January 14, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 QUOTE (raBBit @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 03:03 PM) I went to 20-25 games and surely watched way over 100 with the addition of DVR. Is this a pissing match? A significant amount of Belisario's balls in play found holes. I wonder how many games Rick Hahn watched because he has echoed my same sentiment on Belisario. LMAO. Rick thought he was so unlucky, he non-tendered him, yet he gave Viciedo a contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 QUOTE (raBBit @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 03:11 PM) He talked about how he felt Belisario was unlucky but he couldn't validate extending the offer. He also hinted Belisario would have success this year. His traditional numbers don't look good and he was used out of the role he should have been in. Like I said when they signed him, if this guy sucks, people will HATE him. He has clown antics, he's silly looking/overweight, shady guy, visa problems, etc. If he looked and acted like Scott Carroll he'd be more likely to get the benefit of the doubt. He was being nice. He could have signed him for the same price as this year. If he really was so sure he would be successful in 2015, he would have brought him back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysocks Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Belisario was unlucky. He did not pitch like a guy with a 5.56 ERA. OPS+ of 109, ERA- of 141. His blowups were so visible and he's probably a headache so a non-tender made sense. Viciedo was also unlucky. 2014 Viciedo with average ball-in-play luck looks a lot like 2013 Viciedo, who is still a bad player. And he still has the look of a guy who just isn't learning to get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 02:04 PM) He was on a multi-year, guaranteed deal. When Viciedo becomes a free agent he can gain the upper hand and get that kind of deal, or if he is good enough the team wants to buyout his arb years like Sale, same deal. As long as he is going year to year before free agency, he will be subject to termination pay. The exact same thing happened to the White Sox new utility man last year. He signed a $3.5 million contract to avoid arbitration, and was released: Ken RosenthalVerified account @Ken_Rosenthal· Bonifacio clears waivers at 2 p.m. ET tomorrow. At that point would become free agent. #Royals would owe him about $575K in termination pay. I actually went and googled some background on the deal. It does look like you are right here. This is the first one I saw that did it without being an arbitration award. It appears that the fun part could be this generating a grievance as the release has to be performance based, and we all know who Dayan's agent is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 03:18 PM) I actually went and googled some background on the deal. It does look like you are right here. This is the first one I saw that did it without being an arbitration award. It appears that the fun part could be this generating a grievance as the release has to be performance based, and we all know who Dayan's agent is. If he hits well in Spring Training, he would probably be more attractive to other teams. If he doesn't, Boras' case doesn't look so great. It would be interesting to follow, but these don't seem to go public unfortunately. I am sure JR would get a kick out of winning a grievance vs. Boras. That alone might be worth the guaranteed portion of the contract to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Goodness, DICK ALLEN IS NAILING THIS THREAD. Read his damn posts, there are differences in the way you can cut players on one year deals and multi-year deals. It's in the CBA. Dayan was tendered a one year, partially guaranteed contract. If he's cut in the spring, the Sox will owe him for 45 service days; I believe that will work out to about 1 million. I really don't see why there is so much confusion on this point. Dick is being very patient with you all he explained it at least twice in the last two pages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 03:40 PM) Goodness, DICK ALLEN IS NAILING THIS THREAD. Read his damn posts, there are differences in the way you can cut players on one year deals and multi-year deals. It's in the CBA. Dayan was tendered a one year, partially guaranteed contract. If he's cut in the spring, the Sox will owe him for 45 service days; I believe that will work out to about 1 million. I really don't see why there is so much confusion on this point. Dick is being very patient with you all he explained it at least twice in the last two pages. Speaking of which, great job of not reading the thread to the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 05:57 PM) Speaking of which, great job of not reading the thread to the end. what, your point about the grievance? OK. It's a fair point but only tangential, thus I didn't bother to address it. He's (imo) unlikely to win, and even if he does, it probably won't be publicized. The real point of this entire discussion is that the Sox are almost certainly not on the hook for the full 4.4 million if they cut him in the spring. That point keeps getting missed over and over and over again everywhere on the White Sox Internets. Edited January 14, 2015 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAfan Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 It's amazing how much discussion there is about Dayan Viciedo ... That being said, I think he's going to make the roster this year as a 5th outfielder, RH sub at DH against lefties, and insurance in case something were to happen to Avisail Garcia again. As bad as Viciedo is, he's not that much worse than Garcia was last year. And the Sox have no one else who could step in and play the season as a fill-in starter if necessary. I think the Sox are still hoping Viciedo does as well as he did in 2012, or better. At that rate, aside from the defensive liability, which will be eliminated by having him DH mostly, he would be acceptable. Still too pricey, but acceptable, and better than anything else the Sox have at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 04:03 PM) what, your point about the grievance? OK. It's a fair point but only tangential, thus I didn't bother to address it. He's (imo) unlikely to win, and even if he does, it probably won't be publicized. The real point of this entire discussion is that the Sox are almost certainly not on the hook for the full 4.4 million if they cut him in the spring. That point keeps getting missed over and over and over again everywhere on the White Sox Internets. A potential grievance over a cut has been discussed in multiple places, so it is relevant, especially when you have an agent who goes for every single penny he thinks he can get. He used exactly that tactic to get a new deal for Bryce Harper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 03:30 PM) Dumb question, but is it possible Viciedo made mechanical changes to improve against RHP which ultimately affected his ability against LHP? It's just amazing how much he's regressed against LHP over the past two years. Small sample size. We're talking about a handful of hits between his crummy numbers and respectability. Give him one more hit a month at his same hit distribution (3 more singles, 2 doubles, 1 HR) and his numbers look like this: .245/.311/.486 for an OPS of .797. My point is only that it's a small sample. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vance Law Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 05:03 PM) what, your point about the grievance? OK. It's a fair point but only tangential, thus I didn't bother to address it. He's (imo) unlikely to win, and even if he does, it probably won't be publicized. The issue of the potential grievance was what was pointed out in my original link. The other new bit of information (to me) was that if Viciedo stays through 2 weeks of spring training the termination pay goes up to $1 million. I don't know what your point is regarding whether or not the grievance would be publicized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Let's not forget how going through a complicated/dicey grievance process is going to affect the rest of his teammates (especially Alexei and Abreu, and Rodon has Cuban heritage and the same agent, lol)... How many times have we heard over and over again how the White Sox prefer NOT to go to arbitration hearings because of the bad feelings engendered? Why would they want to go to the trouble of spending $115-120 on a roster and then turn around and create a huge distraction? It's not like there's any logical outfielder on the roster right now you could say with certainty is a better fit as LaRoche's platoon partner...Campanas's made less interesting due to the presence of Bonifacio. JB Shuck has a 667 OPS vs. LHP over the last three years, and scarily is even worse against RHP, at 624 with only 4 homers in 400+ AB's. No matter how low your opinion of Dayan is, he's a bigger offensive threat than JB Shuck. Some might argue Josh Phegley will morph into the next Nick Swisher, but that ship has already sailed and he's no longer an option offensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) well it's not like some team wouldn't trade for him if chicago picked up 2 million on his deal. The clubhouse chemistry issue with Alexei and Jose is a non-starter. You think those two All-Star level players don't know you perform or you leave, no matter how good the chemistry? I think they would be offended if that wasn't the case -- both want to win. If Viciedo wants to file a grievance after a negative WAR season let him. The CBA has wiggle room there and I doubt the Union would pick Dayan's case to try and set precedent. I have written more about Dayan Viciedo than probably the rest of the acquisitions combined this offseason, wtf man. Edited January 15, 2015 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 11:48 PM) well it's not like some team wouldn't trade for him if chicago picked up 2 million on his deal. The clubhouse chemistry issue with Alexei and Jose is a non-starter. You think those two All-Star level players don't know you perform or you leave, no matter how good the chemistry? I think they would be offended if that wasn't the case -- both want to win. If Viciedo wants to file a grievance after a negative WAR season let him. The CBA has wiggle room there and I doubt the Union would pick Dayan's case to try and set precedent. I have written more about Dayan Viciedo than probably the rest of the acquisitions combined this offseason, wtf man. Why would Hahn offer him arbitration if he believed he was going to have to eat $2 million to trade him? That makes absolutely no sense. Why not just NOT offer him a 2015 contract and invest that money in another player, or hold it back for a mid-season acquisition? This whole thing of WAR being the sole indicator of a player's value has to stop. I don't even understand why any team would put themselves in the position of fighting off a grievance...unless Hahn is omniscient and knows that either Cabrera or Garcia will be hurt in spring training. They could only find two examples in recent MLB history, it's a very rare occurrence and far from a slam dunk for the team to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (raBBit @ Jan 14, 2015 -> 05:55 PM) The first part is why I wanted Denorfia, or any defensive minded OF, who I know is going to have a great year with the Cubs. The second part is just gold. I don't know how you came up with Phegley and Swisher as comparables. Other than that the Sox didn't like their individual personalities, there is absolutely nothing similar about them. All of a sudden we trade a player who sucks, and some posters are quickly expecting him to become a legit contributor because they believe deep down that Billy Beane's smarter for some reason, or at least a better judge of hitters/platoon players. Maybe Nick Swisher is a bit of hyperbole, but Beane's far from infallible. Edited January 15, 2015 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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