2015 NIT Thread

[Boogua]

And I still can't get over how bad the 2011 class turned out. Ibby Djimde and Mike Shaw are terrible even at mid-majors right now, Devin Langford wasn't close to a high major player, Egwu isn't any good, Abrams is an average Big 10 guard and Myke Henry isn't any good either. Then we offered Michael Orris who is a f***ing joke in the 2012 class and Jaylon Tate in the 2013 class. I mean seriously what the f***, basketball isn't that hard.

Yup. The only 2 players that were average longterm from the 2010, 2011, and 2012 classes were Abrams and Egwu. That's insane. Groce has screwed up not recruiting a better PG, but he was a bit unlucky by Abrams tearing his ACL too. He had to try to rebuild with a bunch of transfers that ended up being failures.

 

I don't think Groce ever expected Tate to play this much for his program either. If Abrams was healthy Tate and Starks would have been splitting 10-15 minutes per game off the bench.

[whitesoxfan99]

Yup. The only 2 players that were average longterm from the 2010, 2011, and 2012 classes were Abrams and Egwu. That's insane. Groce has screwed up not recruiting a better PG, but he was a bit unlucky by Abrams tearing his ACL too. He had to try to rebuild with a bunch of transfers that ended up being failures.

 

I don't think Groce ever expected Tate to play this much for his program either. If Abrams was healthy Tate and Starks would have been splitting 10-15 minutes per game off the bench.

 

Tate should have never been offered a scholarship.

[Boogua]

Tate should have never been offered a scholarship.

That's fair. I just don't think it would have been that big of a problem if he was getting

[Brian]

Shoutout to Brian's boy, Jaylon Tate, and his 0 pt, 0 ast, 2 to, 4 foul line right now.

 

I'm not one to say I told you so, but....

 

Tate should have never been offered a scholarship.

 

What???

 

I know it comes off as my being hard on Tate and now DJ Williams. Simeon is the one city team I respect. They are well behaved kids and organized. If a kid can leave the city and succeed, that's a great thing. I'm honestly just trying to help Illini fans harness their expectations of them because just because they wear a Simeon jersey, doesn't mean it's a great get.

Too bad Morrow will make Illinois fans regret not recruiting him for the next 4 years at Nebraska.

 

Ok, ill stop.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Brian

[Brian]

Yup. The only 2 players that were average longterm from the 2010, 2011, and 2012 classes were Abrams and Egwu. That's insane. Groce has screwed up not recruiting a better PG, but he was a bit unlucky by Abrams tearing his ACL too. He had to try to rebuild with a bunch of transfers that ended up being failures.

 

Hopefully he gets Lovett and keeps him eligible for 4 years. That'll be easier said then done.

[LittleHurt05]

I was at the UC last night, so I didn't se any of the Illini game. What did I miss?

[Boogua]

I was at the UC last night, so I didn't se any of the Illini game. What did I miss?

You just missed a team that looked lost out there.

 

The Illini ended their season 13-11 with Rice and 6-3 without (with two of their best wins coming in this stretch with Jaylon Tate, the worst player on the planet apparently, getting 31 minutes and 29 minutes in those two wins). Good bye Egwu. Good bye Starks. Good bye Rice.

[whitesoxfan99]

I'm not one to say I told you so, but....

 

 

 

What???

 

I know it comes off as my being hard on Tate and now DJ Williams. Simeon is the one city team I respect. They are well behaved kids and organized. If a kid can leave the city and succeed, that's a great thing. I'm honestly just trying to help Illini fans harness their expectations of them because just because they wear a Simeon jersey, doesn't mean it's a great get.

Too bad Morrow will make Illinois fans regret not recruiting him for the next 4 years at Nebraska.

 

Ok, ill stop.

 

I have major concerns about DJ Williams' motor but I also have no doubt he has the talent to play in the Big 10. He was the best player on his AAU team this summer and that was a team including Charles Matthews. He clearly has major issues with consistency and playing hard and that usually is hard to remedy but if the light goes on he will be good. Tate may be the worst shooter at the guard position to ever play in the Big 10 (except for his free throw shooting which is mind boggling good considering how bad of a shooter he is) and he is an average at best athlete for a Big 10 point guard. If you are going to recruit a kid that can't shoot at all he better have some special attributes elsewhere and Tate doesn't. It is the same reason the Michael Orris offer was incredibly stupid by Weber. If you miss on your top targets at least make sure the kid you are bringing in can shoot it.

[gatnom]

DJ Williams may never be a great player, but he's infinitely more talented than Jaylon Tate. I don't think it's really fair to compare their situations directly. I'd guess that he'll eventually be a solid role player for Illinois.

 

 

[Jenksismyhero]

And I still can't get over how bad the 2011 class turned out. Ibby Djimde and Mike Shaw are terrible even at mid-majors right now, Devin Langford wasn't close to a high major player, Egwu isn't any good, Abrams is an average Big 10 guard and Myke Henry isn't any good either. Then we offered Michael Orris who is a f***ing joke in the 2012 class and Jaylon Tate in the 2013 class. I mean seriously what the f***, basketball isn't that hard.

 

I don't know why you keep beating this drum when it doesn't matter. It's akin to blaming Bush for crap Obama does. At some point you gotta let it go. Yes, the class sucked (although even scouts were wrong about Henry and Shaw, both 4 star, 90+ graded recruits). Yes, it didn't help Groce. But we're three years down the line now. Groce had a couple of good players from the prior staff and that's about what you'd expect when a coach gets fired. Rarely is anyone fired with tons of talent on the roster. Is it a factor here? Sure, but not a big one.

 

The bigger one is Groce's offensive coaching sucks. And as much excitement as he's brought in recruiting, frankly his recruiting hasn't done s***. Nunn is a bust unless he works on his right hand dribbling (and he was basically a Weber recruit, although not 100%. Groce just had to close the deal). Hill, a Weber commit IIRC, is easily the best player on the roster, and has the most potential. Everyone else Groce has signed and/or brought in has sucked. Rice was his savior last year, but maybe the biggest problem this year. They were better without him. He didn't fit with the other guys on the team.

 

I'd love to throw Groce a bone and call this a bit of bad luck. The suspensions of Paul and Rice didn't help. The injuries to Abrams and Rice didn't help. Losing Snider at the last possible second after getting a verbal didn't help. Signing Tate and having to play 4-5 (or 3-5 with Egwu) for extended stretches clearly wasn't the plan, but that's what he gets for signing him.

 

We're trending the wrong direction. I never bought last year that this season was going to be miraculously different. I laughed at those that said this was a tourney team for sure. And next year they're in the same position - bubble team. Although next year without Egwu and Rice there's a strong possibility of not getting to .500 in conference. It could be worse.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Jenksismybitch

[Dick Allen]

I don't know why you keep beating this drum when it doesn't matter. It's akin to blaming Bush for crap Obama does. At some point you gotta let it go. Yes, the class sucked (although even scouts were wrong about Henry and Shaw, but 4 star, 90+ graded recruits). Yes, it didn't help Groce. But we're three years down the line now. Groce had a couple of good players from the prior staff and that's about what you'd expect when a coach gets fired. Rarely is anyone fired with tons of talent on the roster. Is it a factor here? Sure, but not a big one.

 

The bigger one is Groce's offensive coaching sucks. And as much excitement as he's brought in recruiting, frankly his recruiting hasn't done s***. Nunn is a bust unless he works on his right hand dribbling (and he was basically a Weber recruit, although not 100%. Groce just had to close the deal). Hill, a Weber commit IIRC, is easily the best player on the roster, and has the most potential. Everyone else Groce has signed and/or brought in has sucked. Rice was his savior last year, but maybe the biggest problem this year. They were better without him. He didn't fit with the other guys on the team.

 

I'd love to throw Groce a bone and call this a bit of bad luck. The suspensions of Paul and Rice didn't help. The injuries to Abrams and Rice didn't help. Losing Snider at the last possible second after getting a verbal didn't help. Signing Tate and having to play 4-5 (or 3-5 with Egwu) for extended stretches clearly wasn't the plan, but that's what he gets for signing him.

 

We're trending the wrong direction. I never bought last year that this season was going to be miraculously different. I laughed at those that said this was a tourney team for sure. And next year they're in the same position - bubble team. Although next year without Egwu and Rice there's a strong possibility of not getting to .500 in conference. It could be worse.

I agree. It's Illinois. If Bruce Weber left Groce nothing but walk ons, he should be able to do better than a first round blowout loss in the NIT in year 3.

[illinilaw08]

Yup. The only 2 players that were average longterm from the 2010, 2011, and 2012 classes were Abrams and Egwu. That's insane. Groce has screwed up not recruiting a better PG, but he was a bit unlucky by Abrams tearing his ACL too. He had to try to rebuild with a bunch of transfers that ended up being failures.

 

I don't think Groce ever expected Tate to play this much for his program either. If Abrams was healthy Tate and Starks would have been splitting 10-15 minutes per game off the bench.

 

Honestly, this has to be a factor when evaluating Groce. The vaunted 2010 class was a bust (though Leonard is one of only 2 current Illini in the NBA). The 2011 class had only Abrams and Egwu as long-term contributors. The 2012 class was empty.

 

Starting next year, the roster is Groce's. His first class is upperclassmen. There shouldn't be a need to bring in anything other than spot transfers at this point (adding a 5th year when you have an open scholarship just seems like good policy).

 

IF:

 

1) Abrams is healthy next year, the point guard position goes from terrible to B1G average - a huge improvement.

 

2) Paul and Finke can score from the 5 spot without being atrocious defensively, the offense will look significantly better (Illinois was 6-1 this year when Egwu scored in double figures - including the Maryland and @ MSU wins).

 

3) Two of Black, Colbert, JCL, Jordan, and DJ Williams are ready to provide consistent minutes (lumped together because Hill can play 4 if necessary). Honestly, I think it's reasonable to expect improvement from Black and that JCL - the 2nd highest rated B1G recruit next year - is ready to play right away.

 

If all that happens, then next year should be a good year. If not, this is another NIT season and Groce's seat gets really warm...

[Jenksismyhero]

I agree. It's Illinois. If Bruce Weber left Groce nothing but walk ons, he should be able to do better than a first round blowout loss in the NIT in year 3.

 

And it's worse when you look at the Big Ten this year. It's pathetic. Wisconsin is great, Maryland and MSU are good. Everyone else sucks. You had to be average this year to get to the dance and they still couldn't do it. Losing to Nebraska? Michigan without it's best players? Minnesota? Terrible.

[gatnom]

Honestly, this has to be a factor when evaluating Groce. The vaunted 2010 class was a bust (though Leonard is one of only 2 current Illini in the NBA). The 2011 class had only Abrams and Egwu as long-term contributors. The 2012 class was empty.

 

Starting next year, the roster is Groce's. His first class is upperclassmen. There shouldn't be a need to bring in anything other than spot transfers at this point (adding a 5th year when you have an open scholarship just seems like good policy).

 

IF:

 

1) Abrams is healthy next year, the point guard position goes from terrible to B1G average - a huge improvement.

 

2) Paul and Finke can score from the 5 spot without being atrocious defensively, the offense will look significantly better (Illinois was 6-1 this year when Egwu scored in double figures - including the Maryland and @ MSU wins).

 

3) Two of Black, Colbert, JCL, Jordan, and DJ Williams are ready to provide consistent minutes (lumped together because Hill can play 4 if necessary). Honestly, I think it's reasonable to expect improvement from Black and that JCL - the 2nd highest rated B1G recruit next year - is ready to play right away.

 

If all that happens, then next year should be a good year. If not, this is another NIT season and Groce's seat gets really warm...

 

The thing that's getting me is that it's obvious that Groce lost the team this year. There were several games where we were playing for our lives, and the team flat out didn't show up. Is he going to be able to get the team back purely by losing Rice and Egwu?

 

 

[illinilaw08]

I don't know why you keep beating this drum when it doesn't matter. It's akin to blaming Bush for crap Obama does. At some point you gotta let it go. Yes, the class sucked (although even scouts were wrong about Henry and Shaw, both 4 star, 90+ graded recruits). Yes, it didn't help Groce. But we're three years down the line now. Groce had a couple of good players from the prior staff and that's about what you'd expect when a coach gets fired. Rarely is anyone fired with tons of talent on the roster. Is it a factor here? Sure, but not a big one.

 

The bigger one is Groce's offensive coaching sucks. And as much excitement as he's brought in recruiting, frankly his recruiting hasn't done s***. Nunn is a bust unless he works on his right hand dribbling (and he was basically a Weber recruit, although not 100%. Groce just had to close the deal). Hill, a Weber commit IIRC, is easily the best player on the roster, and has the most potential. Everyone else Groce has signed and/or brought in has sucked. Rice was his savior last year, but maybe the biggest problem this year. They were better without him. He didn't fit with the other guys on the team.

 

I'd love to throw Groce a bone and call this a bit of bad luck. The suspensions of Paul and Rice didn't help. The injuries to Abrams and Rice didn't help. Losing Snider at the last possible second after getting a verbal didn't help. Signing Tate and having to play 4-5 (or 3-5 with Egwu) for extended stretches clearly wasn't the plan, but that's what he gets for signing him.

 

We're trending the wrong direction. I never bought last year that this season was going to be miraculously different. I laughed at those that said this was a tourney team for sure. And next year they're in the same position - bubble team. Although next year without Egwu and Rice there's a strong possibility of not getting to .500 in conference. It could be worse.

 

Nunn wasn't even on Illinois' radar while Weber was the coach. And I think it's a bit unfair to call Nunn a bust. He had no offseason because of the knee injury, averaged 11 ppg and had 4 games of 20+. He's a streaky shooter, needs to be more consistent, and needs to get better with his right hand. But calling Nunn a bust is just flat out wrong.

 

The roster that Groce inherited DOES matter when you evaluate him. Webber's last 3 classes left Groce with 2 B1G caliber players after the '09 class left. While it's easier to find instant impact freshman in basketball than in football, it's still not easy. Bertrand's Sr. year, that roster was bad and it was short.

 

This year was a disappointment. But part of that was because of the Abrams injury. Part was Cosby being a colossal bust (how much of that is on the coaching staff is debateable).

 

At some point, Illinois needs to take a step forward. But the 4th year, to me, is the important one. Groce's first recruits are upper classmen now. Hopefully, like Maryland and Arkansas, Year 4 is the year we see the leap.

 

There are obvious reasons for concern, but next year's roster should have plenty of talent (assuming Abrams has a close to complete return from the injury). IF it's a bad season again, then Groce's seat is hot.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Our best player going forward, Malcolm Hill, committed under Weber which is often conveniently forgotten.

[Jenksismyhero]

Honestly, this has to be a factor when evaluating Groce. The vaunted 2010 class was a bust (though Leonard is one of only 2 current Illini in the NBA). The 2011 class had only Abrams and Egwu as long-term contributors. The 2012 class was empty.

 

Starting next year, the roster is Groce's. His first class is upperclassmen. There shouldn't be a need to bring in anything other than spot transfers at this point (adding a 5th year when you have an open scholarship just seems like good policy).

 

IF:

 

1) Abrams is healthy next year, the point guard position goes from terrible to B1G average - a huge improvement.

 

2) Paul and Finke can score from the 5 spot without being atrocious defensively, the offense will look significantly better (Illinois was 6-1 this year when Egwu scored in double figures - including the Maryland and @ MSU wins).

 

3) Two of Black, Colbert, JCL, Jordan, and DJ Williams are ready to provide consistent minutes (lumped together because Hill can play 4 if necessary). Honestly, I think it's reasonable to expect improvement from Black and that JCL - the 2nd highest rated B1G recruit next year - is ready to play right away.

 

If all that happens, then next year should be a good year. If not, this is another NIT season and Groce's seat gets really warm...

 

? This is his roster sans 2 players, one that didn't play, and one that was clearly one of the top three players on the team. I shutter to think how bad they'd be with Morgan/Colbert for 40 minutes.

 

Call me Debbie Downer, but I'm not buying next year, much like I didn't buy this year. Abrams is a 33% shooter (27% from three) and he's still not a true, set-up man PG. Upgrade over Tate/Starks, but he's no where near the level of replacing Rice. Neither is JCL unless he's the second coming. You're relying on Black to take a massive leap....he didn't improve at all really this season. One bright spot, otherwise just thuggery all around. Jordan/DJ shouldn't be expected to do much of anything next year. Few minutes here and there. Finke is a wildcard, but he seems undersized for the Big Ten. And Paul isn't some skilled post player. He shoots a ton of threes. An upgrade over Egwu on offense, sure, but a huge drop off on defense.

 

I predict it's the same year as the last 3 - decent non conference, hovering around .500 in the big ten, sweating it out in March for a bid.

[whitesoxfan99]

I don't know why you keep beating this drum when it doesn't matter. It's akin to blaming Bush for crap Obama does. At some point you gotta let it go. Yes, the class sucked (although even scouts were wrong about Henry and Shaw, both 4 star, 90+ graded recruits). Yes, it didn't help Groce. But we're three years down the line now. Groce had a couple of good players from the prior staff and that's about what you'd expect when a coach gets fired. Rarely is anyone fired with tons of talent on the roster. Is it a factor here? Sure, but not a big one.

 

The bigger one is Groce's offensive coaching sucks. And as much excitement as he's brought in recruiting, frankly his recruiting hasn't done s***. Nunn is a bust unless he works on his right hand dribbling (and he was basically a Weber recruit, although not 100%. Groce just had to close the deal). Hill, a Weber commit IIRC, is easily the best player on the roster, and has the most potential. Everyone else Groce has signed and/or brought in has sucked. Rice was his savior last year, but maybe the biggest problem this year. They were better without him. He didn't fit with the other guys on the team.

 

I'd love to throw Groce a bone and call this a bit of bad luck. The suspensions of Paul and Rice didn't help. The injuries to Abrams and Rice didn't help. Losing Snider at the last possible second after getting a verbal didn't help. Signing Tate and having to play 4-5 (or 3-5 with Egwu) for extended stretches clearly wasn't the plan, but that's what he gets for signing him.

 

We're trending the wrong direction. I never bought last year that this season was going to be miraculously different. I laughed at those that said this was a tourney team for sure. And next year they're in the same position - bubble team. Although next year without Egwu and Rice there's a strong possibility of not getting to .500 in conference. It could be worse.

 

I've said several times Groce isn't doing a good enough job. I've ripped on him for offering Tate. Groce has two classes on campus. Weber didn't leave a single good player outside of his 2009 class that Groce inherited. There was no 2012 class and the 2011 class sucked. That matters but it isn't an excuse for Groce because in basketball you can turn things around pretty quickly by landing the right players. The right guy could have turned things around and had Illinois in much better shape than Groce has but Weber left the program in horrendous shape.

 

Not really that important to the discussion but Nunn was purely a Groce recruit by the way. Weber had zero chance of landing him.

[gatnom]

? This is his roster sans 2 players, one that didn't play, and one that was clearly one of the top three players on the team. I shutter to think how bad they'd be with Morgan/Colbert for 40 minutes.

 

Call me Debbie Downer, but I'm not buying next year, much like I didn't buy this year. Abrams is a 33% shooter (27% from three) and he's still not a true, set-up man PG. Upgrade over Tate/Starks, but he's no where near the level of replacing Rice. Neither is JCL unless he's the second coming. You're relying on Black to take a massive leap....he didn't improve at all really this season. One bright spot, otherwise just thuggery all around. Jordan/DJ shouldn't be expected to do much of anything next year. Few minutes here and there. Finke is a wildcard, but he seems undersized for the Big Ten. And Paul isn't some skilled post player. He shoots a ton of threes. An upgrade over Egwu on offense, sure, but a huge drop off on defense.

 

I predict it's the same year as the last 3 - decent non conference, hovering around .500 in the big ten, sweating it out in March for a bid.

 

Finke is bigger than Colbert, but your prediction seems accurate.

 

 

[whitesoxfan99]

Our best player going forward, Malcolm Hill, committed under Weber which is often conveniently forgotten.

 

And stayed committed under Groce and would have committed to any Illinois coach that offered him a scholarship. Weber deserves some credit for getting him to commit but if he hasn't signed when the new guy takes over I'm not giving the former coach too much credit because it is pretty common for guys to decommit in those situations.

[Jenksismyhero]

Nunn wasn't even on Illinois' radar while Weber was the coach. And I think it's a bit unfair to call Nunn a bust. He had no offseason because of the knee injury, averaged 11 ppg and had 4 games of 20+. He's a streaky shooter, needs to be more consistent, and needs to get better with his right hand. But calling Nunn a bust is just flat out wrong.

 

The roster that Groce inherited DOES matter when you evaluate him. Webber's last 3 classes left Groce with 2 B1G caliber players after the '09 class left. While it's easier to find instant impact freshman in basketball than in football, it's still not easy. Bertrand's Sr. year, that roster was bad and it was short.

 

This year was a disappointment. But part of that was because of the Abrams injury. Part was Cosby being a colossal bust (how much of that is on the coaching staff is debateable).

 

At some point, Illinois needs to take a step forward. But the 4th year, to me, is the important one. Groce's first recruits are upper classmen now. Hopefully, like Maryland and Arkansas, Year 4 is the year we see the leap.

 

There are obvious reasons for concern, but next year's roster should have plenty of talent (assuming Abrams has a close to complete return from the injury). IF it's a bad season again, then Groce's seat is hot.

 

I thought Nunn was a target and someone that considered (and visited) Illinois. I recall there being stories about Hill recruiting him to Illinois to play with him. But maybe my memory is wrong.

 

Still, at the end of the day, you're blaming a coach that got fired for not leaving enough pieces to his successor. I think that's a crap argument. 3 years in, 2 of the best players on the team, and 3 of the top 4 if Abrams stayed healthy, were Weber recruits/commits. So either Weber left him terrible talent, or Groce's own recruits are so terrible that they're not as good as Weber's terrible recruits. Depth is pretty far down the line of concern, especially at the end of the season when no one showed up. I think given the talent Illinois got from Weber, and you add Rice, Groce should have been able to find more serviceable parts that could contribute and win. We're not talking Final Four/Big Ten titles here. We're talking about being slightly better than .500 in the Big Ten and getting a bid in a tourney that has spots for 68 (!) teams. It's a joke that they can't hit that pretty low threshold.

 

Nunn is a bust is a bit of hyperbole. Is he a Big Ten player? Yes. But other than a stretch in the middle of the conference season, and the one game against NW, he's been a no show. Teams have finally scouted him properly. There was talk at the beginning of Big Ten play that he was Illinois' best player and someone who could be all big ten in a couple years. That ceiling is a pipe dream now unless he really works to improve in the off season. He should be more than someone who makes corner 3's.

 

IMO if they miss the tournament next year he should be fired. Not just hot seat, but fired. At that point you'll know whether Groce is the guy or not. You can't afford to wait another year. In 2016-2017 Hill and Nunn will be seniors. That'd be the time to make a run before a massive loss of players in 2017-2018 (6 i think). Give the next coach a chance to win his first year before starting a recruiting rebuild. If you wait a year and they suck again, now you're rebuilding the roster with nothing to sell. 3 straight NIT's and 3 NCAA appearances in 9 years? That's a tough sell.

 

[whitesoxfan99]

IMO if they miss the tournament next year he should be fired. Not just hot seat, but fired. At that point you'll know whether Groce is the guy or not. You can't afford to wait another year. In 2016-2017 Hill and Nunn will be seniors. That'd be the time to make a run before a massive loss of players in 2017-2018 (6 i think). Give the next coach a chance to win his first year before starting a recruiting rebuild. If you wait a year and they suck again, now you're rebuilding the roster with nothing to sell. 3 straight NIT's and 3 NCAA appearances in 9 years? That's a tough sell.

 

Agreed. I liked Groce when he was hired but I'm not afraid to admit I was wrong and cut bait and that was Ron Guenther's biggest flaw. Hell, I wouldn't bat an eye if Groce was fired this year. And I'll go further and say that merely sneaking into the tournament next year shouldn't be enough for him to keep his job. They need to be solidly in the tournament for me to think he should be back for year 5.

[bigruss]

Agreed. I liked Groce when he was hired but I'm not afraid to admit I was wrong and cut bait and that was Ron Guenther's biggest flaw. Hell, I wouldn't bat an eye if Groce was fired this year. And I'll go further and say that merely sneaking into the tournament next year shouldn't be enough for him to keep his job. They need to be solidly in the tournament for me to think he should be back for year 5.

Completely on this page.

 

I actually haven't disagreed with too much of what Groce has done, but it hasn't worked out thus far and that's still on him:

-Tate - that was an obvious we lost out on everyone and need a pg body and this helps the Simeon relationship. Should never have seen the court this much. I understand the need to take him, but not getting anyone better is on the staff 100%.

-Cosby - This blew up so hard, 40% 3pt shooter from the Big East comes in and just s***s his shorts. I loved the transfer when it happened, honestly thought it was a brilliant move to get a piece you really needed in, just didn't work out at all.

-Starks - This was my biggest problem, it "worked" out that he didnt get to play last year because otherwise we would've been stuck with Tate even more this year. But clearly we took a player that didn't fit what we wanted at pg and didn't fit whatever offensive scheme we have. This was a desperation move by Groce to get shooting last year, but then he didnt get the waiver and never really fit in besides having a PG title next to his name.

[whitesoxfan99]

Completely on this page.

 

I actually haven't disagreed with too much of what Groce has done, but it hasn't worked out thus far and that's still on him:

-Tate - that was an obvious we lost out on everyone and need a pg body and this helps the Simeon relationship. Should never have seen the court this much. I understand the need to take him, but not getting anyone better is on the staff 100%.

-Cosby - This blew up so hard, 40% 3pt shooter from the Big 12 comes in and just s***s his shorts. I loved the transfer when it happened, honestly thought it was a brilliant move to get a piece you really needed in, just didn't work out at all.

-Starks - This was my biggest problem, it "worked" out that he didnt get to play last year because otherwise we would've been stuck with Tate even more this year. But clearly we took a player that didn't fit what we wanted at pg and didn't fit whatever offensive scheme we have. This was a desperation move by Groce to get shooting last year, but then he didnt get the waiver and never really fit in besides having a PG title next to his name.

 

Cosby being so bad this year makes no sense at all. The guy was a really productive player in the Big East when the Big East was still a top conference and had shot nearly 40% from 3 on a very high volume of 3's over his 2 years at Seton Hall. Impossible to predict that taking him would have blown up in Illinois' face and the sad thing is that if Cosby did play like he did at Seton Hall this team would have easily been in the tournament. The coaches deserve some of the blame for his production but I would love to get their thoughts on what went wrong there.

[gatnom]

Completely on this page.

 

I actually haven't disagreed with too much of what Groce has done, but it hasn't worked out thus far and that's still on him:

-Tate - that was an obvious we lost out on everyone and need a pg body and this helps the Simeon relationship. Should never have seen the court this much. I understand the need to take him, but not getting anyone better is on the staff 100%.

-Cosby - This blew up so hard, 40% 3pt shooter from the Big East comes in and just s***s his shorts. I loved the transfer when it happened, honestly thought it was a brilliant move to get a piece you really needed in, just didn't work out at all.

-Starks - This was my biggest problem, it "worked" out that he didnt get to play last year because otherwise we would've been stuck with Tate even more this year. But clearly we took a player that didn't fit what we wanted at pg and didn't fit whatever offensive scheme we have. This was a desperation move by Groce to get shooting last year, but then he didnt get the waiver and never really fit in besides having a PG title next to his name.

 

Have to add Colbert, Morgan, and Paul to the players that just haven't worked out list as its been 2 years for these guys and we still haven't gotten any production out of them. Obviously, the Paul situation involves him getting kicked off the team, but he did basically hold onto a scholarship spot for the past 2 seasons. It's tough to succeed when 5-6 of the 10 long term players you bring in just don't work out to some degree or another.