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TaylorStSox

**SPOILER THREAD** GAME OF THRONES ** SPOILER THREAD **

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QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 20, 2015 -> 11:42 AM)
Arya's storyline in the book is probably one of my favorite parts. Its funny how books touch people in different ways. We now know this is the point where the show completely goes off in its own direction, which really only bothers the people who have read the books. I think its hilarious people are up in arms about a rape in the show, they've only shown like 1% of the rape that occurs in the book.

 

Visual depiction of rape is going to be more powerful, and the show creators have not shown they are sensitive to that, and sometimes even claim it is not rape.

 

For a scene that handled it well - see Mad Men season 2

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QUOTE (bmags @ May 20, 2015 -> 11:56 AM)
Visual depiction of rape is going to be more powerful, and the show creators have not shown they are sensitive to that, and sometimes even claim it is not rape.

 

For a scene that handled it well - see Mad Men season 2

Where was the outcry when Theon's junk was sliced off and sent to his father? The media is ridiculous sometimes.

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ May 20, 2015 -> 10:50 AM)
the outcry was much lower when Jamie basically raped Cersei next to their dead son, i thought that was much worse than Sansa.

 

 

Perception.

 

Because there's no behavior out of bounds for the Lannister, and Tyrion, for example....at least most of the time.

 

Of course, that's evolving for Jamie and his brother. (For example, we understand and even sympathize with him when he kills his whore and father because it follows the plot logically...)

 

 

On the other hand, you have the beloved Stark family characters, anytime something horrible befalls them...especially when it's not following the direction of the book, and after Tyrion was a "gentleman" with her, it's going to ruffle feathers.

 

Obviously, the Bolton clan (along with the Freys) is off the charts in the "hate index" and nothing they do should be considered surprising, but to see it happen on screen is more jarring, perhaps. To be forced to visualize something that's only an imaginary thing for a book reader. When characters suffer over and over again and there seems to be no redemption for them, people become frustrated, perhaps. It's hard to explain.

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 20, 2015 -> 12:19 PM)
Where was the outcry when Theon's junk was sliced off and sent to his father? The media is ridiculous sometimes.

 

You may not remember the outcry at the absurd amount of time given to the torture scenes in season 3, but I do.

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ May 20, 2015 -> 12:50 PM)
the outcry was much lower when Jamie basically raped Cersei next to their dead son, i thought that was much worse than Sansa.

 

That was filmed and edited poorly. It was not meant to be depicted as a rape, but that's how it turned out.

 

QUOTE (bmags @ May 20, 2015 -> 01:52 PM)
You may not remember the outcry at the absurd amount of time given to the torture scenes in season 3, but I do.

 

It was necessary to hammer home how broken Theon becomes, and even then they could have done much, much worse.

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I think a lot of book readers hate any deviations. This year, there have been 2 major ones resulting in beloved characters being seriously altered. Sansa was raped and Selmy died. With Sansa, it was a lose/lose situation. They can't introduce Jeyne Poole and have her be raped by another secondary character. It's too late in the series to introduce those type of secondary arcs. It's also probably the catalyst that compels both Sansa and Theon to change.

 

It really didn't bother me. They've already shown the rape of a younger main character in Dany. That was far more graphic and some people think it's part of a "love story." Both Sansa and Dany will be shaped by those incidents.

 

I'm not going to judge these deviations until we fully see how they affect the main storyline. It all might make sense in the end.

 

I still can't figure out if the Dornish plot is supposed to be comic relief. It's so campy, it comes off almost like satire. We can argue over whether we think the writers are good, but it's clear the entire production staff knows how to shoot a scene or 2.

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I think Dorne this year has been the most poorly managed subplot in the show. They've had subplots that have failed but mostly due to there's not a lot to work with (Bron), but this one had a lot of things to work with, with plenty of awesome characters, and instead it looked like a Batman the TVshow episode from the 60s.

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QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 20, 2015 -> 01:21 PM)
I think a lot of book readers hate any deviations. This year, there have been 2 major ones resulting in beloved characters being seriously altered. Sansa was raped and Selmy died. With Sansa, it was a lose/lose situation. They can't introduce Jeyne Poole and have her be raped by another secondary character. It's too late in the series to introduce those type of secondary arcs. It's also probably the catalyst that compels both Sansa and Theon to change.

 

It really didn't bother me. They've already shown the rape of a younger main character in Dany. That was far more graphic and some people think it's part of a "love story." Both Sansa and Dany will be shaped by those incidents.

 

I'm not going to judge these deviations until we fully see how they affect the main storyline. It all might make sense in the end.

 

I still can't figure out if the Dornish plot is supposed to be comic relief. It's so campy, it comes off almost like satire. We can argue over whether we think the writers are good, but it's clear the entire production staff knows how to shoot a scene or 2.

I agree with a lot of this, the Sansa stuff didn't "bother" me, it was meant to be harsh. This series has always been about going to the extreme because that's what draws people in (and this was actually pretty tame compared to other scenes, Red Wedding still takes the cake). Martin and the show producers have never been afraid to show the evil in people.

 

The deviations are understandable, but they need to be done well and this season they just haven't been up to the same standard. I actually though Bronn/Jamie going to Dorne together would be a great substitution, but it was dreadful in the last episode. I've thought their dialogue has been decent, Jamie and Bronn are such witty/assholey characters that they do provide that comic relief but that whole plot to steal Myrcella was about the lamest option they had.

 

 

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I really did retain much of what I read when Dorne was introduced. I thought it was boring and didn't really care for any of the characters. The Quentyn subplot has to be the worst in all the books. It's boring, nonsensical and doesn't go anywhere. I got the gist of Doran's plan and that was enough for me.

Edited by TaylorStSox

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That's where I disagree, I thought it was really interesting, bringing in a normal guy, not someone who is super brave, handsome, great fighter, etc. Yet he stepped up for his family and did what he thought was right, obviously it didn't workout at all but I thought it was a nice change of pace by Martin.

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I know it was a rape and all, but what did they really show that has people so angry? Maybe I wasn't paying close attention, but all I remember was Ramsay making her turn around and bend over, tear some of her clothes, and then Theon's face as you hear Sansa crying.

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QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ May 20, 2015 -> 02:16 PM)
I know it was a rape and all, but what did they really show that has people so angry? Maybe I wasn't paying close attention, but all I remember was Ramsay making her turn around and bend over, tear some of her clothes, and then Theon's face as you hear Sansa crying.

That's pretty much it, the shock is probably moreso in that Sansa has been a pretty delicate character and has avoided most of the physical torment up to that point all for it to lead to marrying Ramsay/getting raped. Yes she was abused by Joffrey but for the most part she left "unharmed", only to end up with Ramsay.

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QUOTE (bigruss22 @ May 20, 2015 -> 02:21 PM)
That's pretty much it, the shock is probably moreso in that Sansa has been a pretty delicate character and has avoided most of the physical torment up to that point all for it to lead to marrying Ramsay/getting raped. Yes she was abused by Joffrey but for the most part she left "unharmed", only to end up with Ramsay.

 

Lol, this comment basically sums up the faux outrage on this topic. Let's pooh-pooh away the fact that she was physically beaten by grown men (also terrible!), but get upset about a rape scene, in a TV show with dragons eating people, dude's getting beheaded, people getting sliced open, people being murdered and poisoned...

 

Frankly, the fact that people are responding the way they are means the writers really hit a note and did a good job. People are upset because they feel so sorry for a (fake) character being put through something like that. Kudos to them.

 

Also, anyone complaining about the "well they didn't have to go that far" just needs to stop. It's called creative license. They didn't HAVE to show the red wedding, right? They could have just made mention of the fact that characters died! Or made it less graphic. Blood was flying everywhere. But they didn't. And people loved it.

 

I think the rape scene fits. I think it's a scene that now forces Sansa and Theon to work together to defeat the Boltons from within. Sansa's been a follower basically her whole story. Now she's going to act for once. At least that's my hope.

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 20, 2015 -> 03:09 PM)
Lol, this comment basically sums up the faux outrage on this topic. Let's pooh-pooh away the fact that she was physically beaten by grown men (also terrible!), but get upset about a rape scene, in a TV show with dragons eating people, dude's getting beheaded, people getting sliced open, people being murdered and poisoned...

 

Frankly, the fact that people are responding the way they are means the writers really hit a note and did a good job. People are upset because they feel so sorry for a (fake) character being put through something like that. Kudos to them.

 

Also, anyone complaining about the "well they didn't have to go that far" just needs to stop. It's called creative license. They didn't HAVE to show the red wedding, right? They could have just made mention of the fact that characters died! Or made it less graphic. Blood was flying everywhere. But they didn't. And people loved it.

 

I think the rape scene fits. I think it's a scene that now forces Sansa and Theon to work together to defeat the Boltons from within. Sansa's been a follower basically her whole story. Now she's going to act for once. At least that's my hope.

They basically are tying up the super long plot of Sansa and littlefinger sitting and waiting for a time to act into one where she is forced to because of the abuse. She is going to pay them back for what theyve done to the North. I understand its place in the show and I dont mind it. I thought the Jayne Poole stuff was dumb in the book as was Sansa and Littlefinger just wandering around.

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QUOTE (bigruss22 @ May 20, 2015 -> 01:21 PM)
That's pretty much it, the shock is probably moreso in that Sansa has been a pretty delicate character and has avoided most of the physical torment up to that point all for it to lead to marrying Ramsay/getting raped. Yes she was abused by Joffrey but for the most part she left "unharmed", only to end up with Ramsay.

 

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/...he-sand-snakes/

 

I largely agree with the thoughts in this Grantland post re: the Sansa rape scene, but to sum up:

 

1) The producer referred to the rape scene as "a hardened woman making a choice." That is not the scene that was depicted. Sansa did not choose to be raped, she had no say in the matter.

 

2) Putting Sansa in that position was a narrative shortcut that makes no sense from Littlefinger's standpoint. It makes no sense that Littlefinger hasn't heard of Ramsay who has flaying people all over the North, but that's the producer's explanation for why Sansa was left unprotected.

 

Like the post says, some of the depictions of rape on the show have been tone deaf. Taking Jamie Lannister - a character on a redemptive arc - and having him rape Cersei in the Sept was such a terrible decision for a character on a redemptive arc.

 

Likewise, with Sansa, if the intention is to show Sansa as "a hardened woman making a choice," that's not the scene that they showed.

 

 

 

 

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QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ May 20, 2015 -> 03:37 PM)
http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/...he-sand-snakes/

 

I largely agree with the thoughts in this Grantland post re: the Sansa rape scene, but to sum up:

 

1) The producer referred to the rape scene as "a hardened woman making a choice." That is not the scene that was depicted. Sansa did not choose to be raped, she had no say in the matter.

 

2) Putting Sansa in that position was a narrative shortcut that makes no sense from Littlefinger's standpoint. It makes no sense that Littlefinger hasn't heard of Ramsay who has flaying people all over the North, but that's the producer's explanation for why Sansa was left unprotected.

 

Like the post says, some of the depictions of rape on the show have been tone deaf. Taking Jamie Lannister - a character on a redemptive arc - and having him rape Cersei in the Sept was such a terrible decision for a character on a redemptive arc.

 

Likewise, with Sansa, if the intention is to show Sansa as "a hardened woman making a choice," that's not the scene that they showed.

 

 

1) Was the hardened choice going to marry into the family that killed your family and took your home? I mean, maybe rape wasn't on the table explicitly, but you gotta figure it wasn't going to be all roses and sunshine there.

 

2) Does Littlefinger really care? Sansa is just a pawn in his game. Whatever happens, happens. That's the way I took it all anyway. He's a cold, calculated dude.

 

 

 

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ May 20, 2015 -> 02:43 PM)
1) Was the hardened choice going to marry into the family that killed your family and took your home? I mean, maybe rape wasn't on the table explicitly, but you gotta figure it wasn't going to be all roses and sunshine there.

 

2) Does Littlefinger really care? Sansa is just a pawn in his game. Whatever happens, happens. That's the way I took it all anyway. He's a cold, calculated dude.

 

On number 1, when Sansa made that decision, she was escorted by Littlefinger and Knights of the Vale. But more to the point, the producer's quote was in a response to a direct question about the rape. Marrying into the Bolton family may have fit the quote, but the rape scene doesn't.

 

On number 2, book Littlefinger certainly cares about Sansa. Now, admittedly book Littlefinger and show Littlefinger are two separate entities. But when asked about Sansa being left with Ramsay, the producer's response was that Littlefinger didn't know about Ramsay's history. That answer makes no sense in the context of who Littlefinger is - a cautious guy who knows everything.

 

More to the point, however, Sansa is more than a pawn. She's the last remaining Stark (that Littlefinger knows of). If he's gunning for Warden of the North, he needs Sansa to help him hold the North.

 

Littlefinger has no allies in the North (other than the Boltons who he necessarily needs out of the way). The Knights of the Vale aren't going to be an occupying force in the North. Just like Lysa and Robin Arryn were the key to Littlefinger gaining (and maintaining) control of the Vale, Sansa is the key to Littlefinger gaining and maintaining control of the North - a huge need for Littlefinger if his ultimate goal is the Iron Throne.

 

Leaving that critical asset in a situation where she is surrounded by enemies - including a dude who has been flaying people all over the North - without so much as a bodyguard or a scant amount of research regarding the guy he's marrying her off to is so out very out of character.

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QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ May 20, 2015 -> 03:55 PM)
On number 1, when Sansa made that decision, she was escorted by Littlefinger and Knights of the Vale. But more to the point, the producer's quote was in a response to a direct question about the rape. Marrying into the Bolton family may have fit the quote, but the rape scene doesn't.

 

On number 2, book Littlefinger certainly cares about Sansa. Now, admittedly book Littlefinger and show Littlefinger are two separate entities. But when asked about Sansa being left with Ramsay, the producer's response was that Littlefinger didn't know about Ramsay's history. That answer makes no sense in the context of who Littlefinger is - a cautious guy who knows everything.

 

More to the point, however, Sansa is more than a pawn. She's the last remaining Stark (that Littlefinger knows of). If he's gunning for Warden of the North, he needs Sansa to help him hold the North.

 

Littlefinger has no allies in the North (other than the Boltons who he necessarily needs out of the way). The Knights of the Vale aren't going to be an occupying force in the North. Just like Lysa and Robin Arryn were the key to Littlefinger gaining (and maintaining) control of the Vale, Sansa is the key to Littlefinger gaining and maintaining control of the North - a huge need for Littlefinger if his ultimate goal is the Iron Throne.

 

Leaving that critical asset in a situation where she is surrounded by enemies - including a dude who has been flaying people all over the North - without so much as a bodyguard or a scant amount of research regarding the guy he's marrying her off to is so out very out of character.

Littlefinger knows most people in the North are still Stark loyalists. By riding in with the Knights of the Vale and saving her, he is given legitimacy. The story has been the same from the beginning, he's playing everyone off one another while slowly gaining more power. He's Lord of Harrenhall, Warden of the Eyrie and, if he has his way, Warden of the North. He cares about nobody other than himself.

 

The Sansa rape was a plot device that moves several pieces of the plot ie Sansa, Theon, Littlefinger, The Boltons and, soon to be Jon Snow.

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QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ May 20, 2015 -> 03:43 PM)
Littlefinger knows most people in the North are still Stark loyalists. By riding in with the Knights of the Vale and saving her, he is given legitimacy. The story has been the same from the beginning, he's playing everyone off one another while slowly gaining more power. He's Lord of Harrenhall, Warden of the Eyrie and, if he has his way, Warden of the North. He cares about nobody other than himself.

 

The Sansa rape was a plot device that moves several pieces of the plot ie Sansa, Theon, Littlefinger, The Boltons and, soon to be Jon Snow.

 

But that response doesn't answer the two biggest issues with Littlefinger's plan. He needs Sansa alive, yet he does no research re: Ramsay. If Sansa is dead, do you really think the fiercely independent North bows to Littlefinger - even if he avenges Sansa's death/routs the Boltons? Littlefinger barely has control of the Vale - and only through Robin Arryn. Again, acknowledging that the books and show are different entities on this point, why would the Lords of the Vale agree to go to war on Robin Arryn/Littlefinger's say so?*

 

On the rape, it's a plot device that, like the Jamie-Cersei rape, halts the momentum it seems like the show was trying to build for the character. Jamie is on a redemptive arc, but then he rapes Cersei setting back any growth he's shown as a character.

 

Sansa finally starts to gain some agency/stop becoming a victim. Half a season into that arc, she gets raped while Theon watches. I get that it's a plot device to replace Jeyne Poole and I've been dreading the scene all season. I'm saying it was poorly done and slows/halts Sansa's character growth. She's back to the damsel in distress that needs to be saved - by either Theon or Brienne.

 

Also of note, don't get me started on how dumb the Dorne scenes were this week. After how well they portrayed Oberyn last season, the portrayal of the Sand Snakes has been comically awful.

 

EDIT: * I acknowledge that Robin Arryn is the ruler of the Vale, but as we've seen in King's Landing, the decisions of a weak leader are not really respected. Littlefinger is an outsider in the Vale - the foundation has not been laid for him to be able to send the Vale to war.

Edited by illinilaw08

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I don't think the rape turns Sansa into a victim, it empowers her to finally fight back against the people who have been attacking her and her family from day one.

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QUOTE (RockRaines @ May 20, 2015 -> 05:20 PM)
I don't think the rape turns Sansa into a victim, it empowers her to finally fight back against the people who have been attacking her and her family from day one.

 

Are you Bobby Knight, lol?

 

 

Actually...the Sand Snakes stuff reminds me of my favorite daytime soap opera from the 80's and early 90's, Santa Barbara.

 

Terrible. It's just way off tune with the rest of the show...almost inexplicable with so many experts involved that that's what they'd end up with on screen when all is said and done.

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Perhaps Littlefinger expected Ramsay to basically rape or degrade Sansa, believing that it will push her in a direction he wants. I'm sure he's aware of Ramsay's actions in the past and the Bolton family's current state, and because of that, I'm sure he's aware that both Ramsay and Roose know full well that they can't flay the last remaining Stark.

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QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ May 20, 2015 -> 09:07 PM)
Perhaps Littlefinger expected Ramsay to basically rape or degrade Sansa, believing that it will push her in a direction he wants. I'm sure he's aware of Ramsay's actions in the past and the Bolton family's current state, and because of that, I'm sure he's aware that both Ramsay and Roose know full well that they can't flay the last remaining Stark.

I wouldn't ever expect Littlefinger to not know something, he definitely knew about Ramsay's reputation (it wasn't that big of a secret anyways). This is all part of his plan, maybe not the rape specifically but mistreatment of Sansa to plot in her head that the Boltons absolutely need to die and with her help. Littlefinger may be the best strategist out there now.

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The Boltons need her alive too. It's the same reason they came up with the fake Arya plan. All this comes from Martin. They're just replacing Sansa for Arya (fake).

 

As far as the progression of Sansa's character, the world isn't so black and white. Everyone has setbacks. Sansa's rape was a setback on her path of empowerment. Jamie raping Cersei was a setback in his path to redemption. This is basic life s***. I'm surprised more people don't understand this. People don't instantly change.

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QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ May 20, 2015 -> 04:37 PM)
http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/...he-sand-snakes/

 

I largely agree with the thoughts in this Grantland post re: the Sansa rape scene, but to sum up:

 

1) The producer referred to the rape scene as "a hardened woman making a choice." That is not the scene that was depicted. Sansa did not choose to be raped, she had no say in the matter.

 

2) Putting Sansa in that position was a narrative shortcut that makes no sense from Littlefinger's standpoint. It makes no sense that Littlefinger hasn't heard of Ramsay who has flaying people all over the North, but that's the producer's explanation for why Sansa was left unprotected.

 

Like the post says, some of the depictions of rape on the show have been tone deaf. Taking Jamie Lannister - a character on a redemptive arc - and having him rape Cersei in the Sept was such a terrible decision for a character on a redemptive arc.

 

Likewise, with Sansa, if the intention is to show Sansa as "a hardened woman making a choice," that's not the scene that they showed.

 

 

1) Rape may not have explicitly been on the table, but Sansa has grown much and is smarter than she was when the show started, there is no way she could have thought she'd marry Ramsay and their marriage would not be consummated like it was with Tyrion. I think that's where the idea of her making a choice for a longer play comes in.

 

And again on the Jamie Lannister point, the producers have come out and said that was not their intent. They screwed up the scene, but they were not intending him to rape Cersei in that moment.

 

I also have to agree with everyone about the Dorne stuff this season. It's just been terribly done and superfluous to everything else in the show at this point. Why did they even cast the sand snakes if this is how they were going to be portrayed? Unless the remaining 4 episodes do a significant turnaround, they would have been much better off adding the Ironborn instead of the Dornish. Doubt it would have been worse.

 

PS. Has it been mentioned yet that Bronn was cut with a dagger? They seemed to zoom in on that occurring, and this being Dorne, I hope that doesn't mean his end is near

 

 

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