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Rex Kickass

Multiple Victims in Charleston SC Church Shooting

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QUOTE (Iwritecode @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 08:08 AM)
This is an awesome idea. We just need to get everyone that may potentially kill someone with a gun at some point in the future to register for a list so we make sure nobody ever sells them a gun.

 

Or maybe we should just leave it up to the gun sellers to ask the question "Are you going to kill someone with this gun if I sell it to you?"

 

Why hasn't anyone thought of this before?

 

 

 

 

 

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Yeah, or maybe we could be allowed to track and study gun sales to look into if there are any patterns for gun purchases coming from particular stores. But no, this is such an important issue that we are not allowed to even study it, and the very serious people like you can just sit on the sidelines saying "welp, nothing we can do, criminals gon criminal."

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QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 08:46 AM)
Yeah, or maybe we could be allowed to track and study gun sales to look into if there are any patterns for gun purchases coming from particular stores. But no, this is such an important issue that we are not allowed to even study it, and the very serious people like you can just sit on the sidelines saying "welp, nothing we can do, criminals gon criminal."

 

Let's go around the merry go around again.

 

How could that study have prevented this particular shooting? He's not a major gun purchaser. Aside from a full on background check, including interviews with friends and family (which still might not have been enough), you're not preventing this guy from getting a gun.

 

In this case, yes, criminal gon criminal.

 

Until you guys get your minority report future vision, there's not much to stopping this stuff. Crazy is crazy.

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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 08:36 AM)

 

While I think it's extremely odd, distasteful and embarrassing that states still do this, not sure how or why that's relevant to this situation. That's just someone creating an opportunity out of tragedy to further their own agenda.

 

edit: if Charleston proudly displayed KKK flags or hats, then I could see it.

Edited by Jenksismybitch

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:24 AM)
While I think it's extremely odd, distasteful and embarrassing that states still do this, not sure how or why that's relevant to this situation. That's just someone creating an opportunity out of tragedy to further their own agenda.

 

edit: if Charleston proudly displayed KKK flags or hats, then I could see it.

CH2AFckUAAEtEB7.jpg

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:23 AM)
Let's go around the merry go around again.

 

How could that study have prevented this particular shooting? He's not a major gun purchaser. Aside from a full on background check, including interviews with friends and family (which still might not have been enough), you're not preventing this guy from getting a gun.

 

In this case, yes, criminal gon criminal.

 

Until you guys get your minority report future vision, there's not much to stopping this stuff. Crazy is crazy.

The regularity of mass killings breeds familiarity. The rhythms of grief and outrage that accompany them become—for those not directly affected by tragedy—ritualised and then blend into the background noise. That normalisation makes it ever less likely that America's political system will groan into action to take steps to reduce their frequency or deadliness. Those who live in America, or visit it, might do best to regard them the way one regards air pollution in China: an endemic local health hazard which, for deep-rooted cultural, social, economic and political reasons, the country is incapable of addressing. This may, however, be a bit unfair. China seems to be making progress on pollution.
(link)

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QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 08:46 AM)
Yeah, or maybe we could be allowed to track and study gun sales to look into if there are any patterns for gun purchases coming from particular stores.

 

That's probably a good idea and I think we should do that but isn't that kind of like closing the barn door after the horse already got out?

 

Then they just move to the next gun store down the block...

 

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 11:27 AM)
CH2AFckUAAEtEB7.jpg

 

Shoot, you might as well say let's take the American flag down then. That's why I think it's a dumb argument, not to mention you're providing an object to blame here, instead of the sick f*** that did this.

 

Also, the obligatory "movies/games/music/tv with violence caused this" argument can go here. Same poor logic.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 11:39 AM)

 

Given it's rare, i'm actually happy that we haven't overreacted as we typically do.

Edited by Jenksismybitch

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 11:44 AM)
Shoot, you might as well say let's take the American flag down then. That's why I think it's a dumb argument, not to mention you're providing an object to blame here, instead of the sick f*** that did this.

 

Also, the obligatory "movies/games/music/tv with violence caused this" argument can go here. Same poor logic.

 

Come on now, Jenks. Surely you can see why people would make a link to a symbol of oppression of African Americans since 1861 (and particularly during Reconstruction and the Jim Crow South) and this horrible incident (particularly since reports indicated this guy had the Confederate flag on his license plate and the crime appears to have been explicitly racially motivated).

 

It's a symbol of a racist past. It's associated with Jim Crow, the Klan, lynchings, attacks on churches. It might not mean that to everyone in the South, but it certainly means that to enough people that it's nonsense it still flies above the South Carolina statehouse.

 

The historical meaning behind that flag is sufficiently related to the apparent motivation behind the shootings that it seems to be a pretty apt source of discussion here.

 

 

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The confederate flag was the flag chosen for a group trying to start a white supremacist country. That was explicit.

 

While the US has never acted perfectly, it was never founded specifically to be a white supremacist state the way that the confederacy was. So no, "you may as well not remove the American flag", you may was well deal with the issue that you cannot remove white supremacy from the confederacy. It's not about southern culture, lest you say they are also inseparable.

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QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:27 PM)
Come on now, Jenks. Surely you can see why people would make a link to a symbol of oppression of African Americans since 1861 (and particularly during Reconstruction and the Jim Crow South) and this horrible incident (particularly since reports indicated this guy had the Confederate flag on his license plate and the crime appears to have been explicitly racially motivated).

 

It's a symbol of a racist past. It's associated with Jim Crow, the Klan, lynchings, attacks on churches. It might not mean that to everyone in the South, but it certainly means that to enough people that it's nonsense it still flies above the South Carolina statehouse.

 

The historical meaning behind that flag is sufficiently related to the apparent motivation behind the shootings that it seems to be a pretty apt source of discussion here.

 

But the flag didn't cause this, that's what i'm responding to. Having that flag isn't some sign that the south or Charleston in particular approves of this kind of behavior or even of racism itself. A flag didn't create his hatred/racism just like a video game or tv show doesn't cause kids to be more violent. If you go ask southerners now the confederate flag is all about southern pride, not racism/slavery (though i'm 100% in agreement that it's moronic that they'd be so proud of that).

 

I hate when these events result in blaming something else as the cause. That's bulls***. This dude has a mental imbalance and a f***ed up view of the world. Plan and simple. The confederate flag didn't provide his moronic justification that black people rape white women and are taking over the country.

Edited by Jenksismybitch

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Nobody is saying that the flag created his hatred or racism, but it is absolutely a symbol of it. Why do you think he chose to wear the South African and Rhodesian flags?

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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 02:04 PM)
Nobody is saying that the flag created his hatred or racism, but it is absolutely a symbol of it. Why do you think he chose to wear the South African and Rhodesian flags?

 

I suppose but if it didn't cause or contribute to it why is it imperative they take it down?

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On page 1-3 of this thread it was asked several times why no one reported "Guy from South Carolina who owns a gun making racist remarks and threatening to kill people based on race" and the comments in several cases were effectively that they thought it was no big deal (hence why I added the quote on page 1).

 

It's no big deal because that is normal.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 02:12 PM)
On page 1-3 of this thread it was asked several times why no one reported "Guy from South Carolina who owns a gun making racist remarks and threatening to kill people based on race" and the comments in several cases were effectively that they thought it was no big deal (hence why I added the quote on page 1).

 

It's no big deal because that is normal.

 

So if you don't like someone's speech/beliefs you should deny them constitutional rights? That's the answer?

 

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 03:15 PM)
So if you don't like someone's speech/beliefs you should deny them constitutional rights? That's the answer?

There's no constitutional requirement that the government display the Confederate flag.

 

And while people may have a constitutional right to be racist a** holes, I have a similar right to point out the connection between that and people being killed by a racist a**hole while doing what he believed racist a**holes should be doing. And when their whole state government decides "Hey it's a great idea to show off that we're racist a**holes", then I have a similar right to point out that "everyone being ok with a bunch of racist a**holes is part of the problem"

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 02:12 PM)
I suppose but if it didn't cause or contribute to it why is it imperative they take it down?

The symbol itself isn't a source but a representation. The swastika didn't cause Nazis to commit genocide, but it's a powerful symbol of their atrocities. Similarly, the confederate flag didn't cause the confederates to commit treason in the name of slavery or to violently oppose desegregation in the following generations, but it remains a symbol of those beliefs.

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 12:57 PM)
But the flag didn't cause this, that's what i'm responding to. Having that flag isn't some sign that the south or Charleston in particular approves of this kind of behavior or even of racism itself. A flag didn't create his hatred/racism just like a video game or tv show doesn't cause kids to be more violent. If you go ask southerners now the confederate flag is all about southern pride, not racism/slavery (though i'm 100% in agreement that it's moronic that they'd be so proud of that).

 

I hate when these events result in blaming something else as the cause. That's bulls***. This dude has a mental imbalance and a f***ed up view of the world. Plan and simple. The confederate flag didn't provide his moronic justification that black people rape white women and are taking over the country.

 

If you ask African-Americans in the South about people who fly the Confederate flag, you might get a different response.

 

No one is saying that the Confederate flag made this guy commit this atrocity, but to enough people it represents the same set of beliefs that caused this guy to commit this atrocity. The fact that a state in the south continues to fly that flag is really bad in that light.

 

 

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QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 03:55 PM)
If you ask African-Americans in the South about people who fly the Confederate flag, you might get a different response.

Same if you asked people who knew the history. Its use in the first half of this century was very little, it suddenly became an important symbol in the 1940s and 1950s again...because of exactly that reason.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 02:57 PM)
Same if you asked people who knew the history. Its use in the first half of this century was very little, it suddenly became an important symbol in the 1940s and 1950s again...because of exactly that reason.

 

 

 

"The flag was first raised over the [s.C.] Capitol in 1962, largely to express defiance of the civil rights movement."

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/01/24/us/confe...h-carolina.html

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One of the arguments used is always that if you turn the Swastika around it becomes the symbol for Buddhism, considered the most peaceful religion in the world by many.

 

Let's just put it this way...maybe we should go back to the original flag of the 13 colonies or the Don't Tread on Me version when we have a meeting with the British PM, at the U.N. Or G-7/8. Think they wouldn't be offended? Then imagine being an African-American and seeing that flag flying over the statehouse or all over the infield at a Nascar race. Would you trust those elected officials?

 

 

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 08:23 AM)
We should make people sign a contract saying they will not do anything illegal with their purchase too.

Yeah and pinky swear on top of it

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Obama has been saying he hasn't given up on gun reform but it's clear that he has by the context of his comments. He's a smart man and he knows he can't pass laws that will make a truly significant dent in our problem. Could we make improvements? Sure. But that's like a 500 pound man saying he could definitely shed 10 if he wanted to.

 

We don't have all the facts, but we do know that once again, innocent people were killed in part because someone who wanted to inflict harm had no trouble getting their hand on a gun.

 

Now is the time for mourning and for healing. But let's be clear. At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn't happen in other places with this kind of frequency.

 

And it is in our power to do something about it. I say that recognizing the politics in this town foreclose a lot of those avenues right now. But it'd be wrong for us not to acknowledge it, and at some point, it's going to be important for Americans to come to grips with it and for us to be able to shift how we think about the issue of gun violence collectively.

 

Emphases mine, of course. This is a president who recognizes that the problem is simple. There are a ton of guns out there and for most of the cases in which they kill someone, there isn't a reasonable policy that could have directly prevented it. We can't take the guns that already exist out of people's hands and that's the only way to really eliminate this problem. We can only hope that people lose interest in owning them and gradually realize they do more harm than good.

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