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ron883

It's time for a fire sale.

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Dump Robertson. Dump LaRoche. Dump Shark (hopefully his value raises by the deadline...) Hopefully Melky can somehow go on a hot streak and not be f***ing garbage still at the deadline. spend big on July 2nd prospects. This team needs a couple years of growth. Hopefully one of Fulmer or Adams can contribute in two years. Anderson will be ready by then. Just firesale and hope for the best in two years. Not sure what else to do.

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QUOTE (ron883 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:14 PM)
Dump Robertson. Dump LaRoche. Dump Shark (hopefully his value raises by the deadline...) Hopefully Melky can somehow go on a hot streak and not be f***ing garbage still at the deadline. spend big on July 2nd prospects. This team needs a couple years of growth. Hopefully one of Fulmer or Adams can contribute in two years. Anderson will be ready by then. Just firesale and hope for the best in two years. Not sure what else to do.

 

 

By spending big on July 2nd prospects, you do realize there are 29 other teams in on the same players?

 

Unless you want to go crazy and start giving Yoan Moncada contracts out to Eddy Julio Ramirez and Alvares...which would mean we would pay huge tax penalties and be very limited in our next signing period.

 

For Robertson and LaRoche, you're not going to receive anything even remotely resembling Eaton and Avi/Montas.

 

Even if Anderson and Adams were ready for 2017 and Fulmer in the 2nd half of 2016, you're talking about 2018 until they're legitimately ready to compete again...basically that would mean a rebuilding period of SEVEN years to get back to competitiveness (which we've heard over and over again the fanbase can't or won't put up with, especially when the Cubs are reaping the benefits of patience simultaneously.)

 

You have to make some changes in the coaching staff before you just jettison the entire team and give up on them ever being a productive unit together...you've also got to limit the trades to Samardzija, Ramirez, Putnam/Petricka/Duke, and then, determining how things go over the next 5-6 weeks, you listen on Quintana but morely likely you table that trade until the off-season when you have a whole new coaching staff in place. Let the new manager and Hahn together decide what he wants to do with Quintana, Robertson and LaRoche.

 

 

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QUOTE (ron883 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 05:14 AM)
Dump Robertson. Dump LaRoche. Dump Shark (hopefully his value raises by the deadline...) Hopefully Melky can somehow go on a hot streak and not be f***ing garbage still at the deadline. spend big on July 2nd prospects. This team needs a couple years of growth. Hopefully one of Fulmer or Adams can contribute in two years. Anderson will be ready by then. Just firesale and hope for the best in two years. Not sure what else to do.

I've been advocating dumping all these guys for weeks. Time keeps tick, tick, ticking ...

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IMHO, Melky and LaRoche are going nowhere due to their salaries and lack of production. Hopefully they can hit enough the rest of the season to be traded this winter.

 

Robertson: I think his contract will look better this winter after Papelbon signs a new deal. That's when the Sox should move Robertson if they are ever going to. More teams would be in the mix since the payrolls have more flexibility.

 

Samardzija: pitching better and could very well be traded in July.

 

Alexei: doubtful any team wants him and likely sees his 2016 season bought out and becomes a FA this winter.

 

Duke: Sox could probably get an A ball Ricky Vaughn wild thing type in July.

 

That's about it folks.

 

 

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You can't have a fire sale when there's not much to sell. Shark & Alexei will have some value and maybe Robertson and the cheap bullpen arms could be moved, but there isn't anything worth a ton outside of the core (Sale/Quintana/Rodon/Abreu).

 

Unless you go full-rebuild, which I think is a horrible idea, we're kind of stuck for the time-being. However, you got to find a way to get our young guys some playing time. That means Micah at 2B, Sanchez at SS (worth a look IMO), Thompson in the OF (not sure where/how), & Erik Johnson in the rotation. Maybe consider guys like Davidson, Saladino, Kevan Smith, & Beck depending on where they are at a month from now. The key is we need know if any of these guys have a chance of being 2016 contributors.

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QUOTE (ron883 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:14 AM)
Dump Robertson. Dump LaRoche. Dump Shark (hopefully his value raises by the deadline...) Hopefully Melky can somehow go on a hot streak and not be f***ing garbage still at the deadline. spend big on July 2nd prospects. This team needs a couple years of growth. Hopefully one of Fulmer or Adams can contribute in two years. Anderson will be ready by then. Just firesale and hope for the best in two years. Not sure what else to do.

Seriously people need to stop mentioning Anderson as though he's going to be a saviour for this ballclub. From his AA performance any other team would be skeptical about him ever being an MLB regular, let alone "ready in 2 years". Compared to last year, his batting average is down but still ok and around .300, but he's hitting extra base hits at only 60% of the rate of last year so his slugging has plummeted, he has a .323 OBP and a whopping .715 OPS, he's on pace to strike out over 100 times while walking 20 or so times this year, and he's made a bunch of errors at short. "I've got a guy at AA with a .715 OPS" isn't a message that sells me on him even being an MLB regular, let alone worth having his name in a list of guys you'd consider "ready to help this club in 2 years".

 

He still has talent, he has speed, he still is piling up the hits, but any reasonable organization would see his performance this year and think "ok, let's be patient and take our time, he has a lot to learn even at these levels". A reasonable organization would see that performance and slide him back to a mid 2017 arrival at the earliest barring a huge improvement, and then that reasonable organization would expect there's a good chance he'll need to struggle for a year or two at the big league level if he ever can take hold of a starting position. That org would also realize there's a good chance he completely busts and can't handle a position or the strikeouts pile up even more as he faces better pitching and becomes just another guy who drifts around after getting a short shot and come up with other plans. If he does better than that, great, but stop penciling him in as even a future big league regular until we see him earn it.

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I agree. Season's over. Try and get whatever you can for some of these guys. I can't believe it's mid-June and I have completely checked out of the season already. It's just been so hard for me to care about this currently constructed team. They have been incredibly frustrating to watch and follow this year.

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QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 07:33 AM)
I agree. Season's over. Try and get whatever you can for some of these guys. I can't believe it's mid-June and I have completely checked out of the season already. It's just been so hard for me to care about this currently constructed team. They have been incredibly frustrating to watch and follow this year.

 

This post could've been from basically any year between 2007 and 2015.

 

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QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 08:36 AM)
This post could've been from basically any year between 2007 and 2015.

 

Maybe the last couple, but they were competitive in a few of the other years into September at least. I can't recall hoping for draft pick position in June before.

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I hate it to break it to people, but David Robertson doesn't have much trade value. He is a reliever due $36 million from 2016-2018. Teams don't happily trade for contracts like that unless you throw in some money. There is a reason only Houston offered him more in the offseason. You can get a reliever almost as good as him for a fraction of the salary in July.

 

That being said, it doesn't matter, because the Sox are not trading a guy in the first year of a four year FA deal.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 12:12 PM)
Seriously people need to stop mentioning Anderson as though he's going to be a saviour for this ballclub. From his AA performance any other team would be skeptical about him ever being an MLB regular, let alone "ready in 2 years". Compared to last year, his batting average is down but still ok and around .300, but he's hitting extra base hits at only 60% of the rate of last year so his slugging has plummeted, he has a .323 OBP and a whopping .715 OPS, he's on pace to strike out over 100 times while walking 20 or so times this year, and he's made a bunch of errors at short. "I've got a guy at AA with a .715 OPS" isn't a message that sells me on him even being an MLB regular, let alone worth having his name in a list of guys you'd consider "ready to help this club in 2 years".

 

He still has talent, he has speed, he still is piling up the hits, but any reasonable organization would see his performance this year and think "ok, let's be patient and take our time, he has a lot to learn even at these levels". A reasonable organization would see that performance and slide him back to a mid 2017 arrival at the earliest barring a huge improvement, and then that reasonable organization would expect there's a good chance he'll need to struggle for a year or two at the big league level if he ever can take hold of a starting position. That org would also realize there's a good chance he completely busts and can't handle a position or the strikeouts pile up even more as he faces better pitching and becomes just another guy who drifts around after getting a short shot and come up with other plans. If he does better than that, great, but stop penciling him in as even a future big league regular until we see him earn it.

 

you are making an excellent point.

 

here is a question, making the majors, for me, this is a foregone conclusion. defensively it will be taken care off as is.

 

but offensively, how or where in the order do you see him?

 

obviously, due to his K's, i don't see him as a leadoff or a #2. not enuf power for #3,4,5. that is me. your thoughts.

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QUOTE (LDF @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 09:25 AM)
you are making an excellent point.

 

here is a question, making the majors, for me, this is a foregone conclusion. defensively it will be taken care off as is.

 

but offensively, how or where in the order do you see him?

 

obviously, due to his K's, i don't see him as a leadoff or a #2. not enuf power for #3,4,5. that is me. your thoughts.

Right now he looks like he'd fit well within the 6-9 slots in the 2015 White Sox batting order. In other words, not belonging on a major league ball club. Beyond that I literally can't project because he has to get better before it's even worth talking about and how he gets better, if at all, is key to the ability to answer that question.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:32 PM)
Right now he looks like he'd fit well within the 6-9 slots in the 2015 White Sox batting order. In other words, not belonging on a major league ball club. Beyond that I literally can't project because he has to get better before it's even worth talking about and how he gets better, if at all, is key to the ability to answer that question.

 

real nice.

 

i saw it as a #7, i just wasn't sure of a #6 slot. his offensive tools are enticing. but it is K's that makes me wonder about #6.

 

on a side note, i can see the sox #3,4,5 hitting good, and #6 with anderson hitting, makes it more potent.

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QUOTE (LDF @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 09:37 AM)
real nice.

 

i saw it as a #7, i just wasn't sure of a #6 slot. his offensive tools are enticing. but it is K's that makes me wonder about #6.

 

on a side note, i can see the sox #3,4,5 hitting good, and #6 with anderson hitting, makes it more potent.

QUOTE (LDF @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 09:37 AM)
real nice.

 

i saw it as a #7, i just wasn't sure of a #6 slot. his offensive tools are enticing. but it is K's that makes me wonder about #6.

 

on a side note, i can see the sox #3,4,5 hitting good, and #6 with anderson hitting, makes it more potent.

To me this is like saying "and when Hector Noesi finds his stuff our 2017 rotation will look real potent." The problem is that having Anderson become a big league ball player is a huge jump! No one is asking where Hawkins would hit in a lineup because he hasn't yet looked like he will do damage in the big leagues. Saying Anderson as a #6 hitter makes it more potent is to me like complimenting Beckham and Gillaspie on how potent they're making our lineup while hitting 6th. They're not making it potent, they're pretty rotten!

 

Also "I can see the 345 hitting good" would require a huge upgrade from this year too/.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 07:12 AM)
Seriously people need to stop mentioning Anderson as though he's going to be a saviour for this ballclub. From his AA performance any other team would be skeptical about him ever being an MLB regular, let alone "ready in 2 years". Compared to last year, his batting average is down but still ok and around .300, but he's hitting extra base hits at only 60% of the rate of last year so his slugging has plummeted, he has a .323 OBP and a whopping .715 OPS, he's on pace to strike out over 100 times while walking 20 or so times this year, and he's made a bunch of errors at short. "I've got a guy at AA with a .715 OPS" isn't a message that sells me on him even being an MLB regular, let alone worth having his name in a list of guys you'd consider "ready to help this club in 2 years".

 

He still has talent, he has speed, he still is piling up the hits, but any reasonable organization would see his performance this year and think "ok, let's be patient and take our time, he has a lot to learn even at these levels". A reasonable organization would see that performance and slide him back to a mid 2017 arrival at the earliest barring a huge improvement, and then that reasonable organization would expect there's a good chance he'll need to struggle for a year or two at the big league level if he ever can take hold of a starting position. That org would also realize there's a good chance he completely busts and can't handle a position or the strikeouts pile up even more as he faces better pitching and becomes just another guy who drifts around after getting a short shot and come up with other plans. If he does better than that, great, but stop penciling him in as even a future big league regular until we see him earn it.

 

I think 2B is ultimately Anderson's ultimate position. Following him closely this year, it appears a lot of his errors are coming on throws. While it sounds like his range would play at SS, Im thinking his arm is the big problem.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 02:52 PM)
To me this is like saying "and when Hector Noesi finds his stuff our 2017 rotation will look real potent." The problem is that having Anderson become a big league ball player is a huge jump! No one is asking where Hawkins would hit in a lineup because he hasn't yet looked like he will do damage in the big leagues. Saying Anderson as a #6 hitter makes it more potent is to me like complimenting Beckham and Gillaspie on how potent they're making our lineup while hitting 6th. They're not making it potent, they're pretty rotten!

 

Also "I can see the 345 hitting good" would require a huge upgrade from this year too/.

 

and with that logic and caution, that is a definite thing to take into consideration.

 

but that is why i was asking that question in the first place and my uncertainty of where, when he makes the majors.

 

it not like i have him pencil into the #3 slot. :P

 

but this is the only way to deal with this season.

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QUOTE (LDF @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:07 AM)
and with that logic and caution, that is a definite thing to take into consideration.

 

but that is why i was asking that question in the first place and my uncertainty of where, when he makes the majors.

 

it not like i have him pencil into the #3 slot. :P

 

but this is the only way to deal with this season.

If you're ok with a .550 OPS from your number 3 hitter then you're ok with this version of Anderson hitting there.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 02:15 PM)
If you're ok with a .550 OPS from your number 3 hitter then you're ok with this version of Anderson hitting there.

 

hmmmm no and i think that is why we are discussing, how to best see anderson, hitting in what number in the order. it not like we are expecting him tomorrow or next season.

 

remember fans has always envision prospect with rose colored glasses, thinking that they will be all-stars right off. not really thinking that there will be a learning curve.

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“Fire sale” or call it what you will, there are some moves that seem compelling. I’m still hopeful for next year, so I don’t want to see them trade away the young core of Sale, Quintana, Rodon, Abreu and Garcia.

 

Here are the guys that should be moved, and why:

 

Samardjiza - It’s obvious that he belongs on a contender, in his contract year. He holds little value to the Sox. A contending team that needs a RH starter, who can go deep into games, and get outs, should be willing to give up something of value. I favor one top prospect, who has a good probability of being able to fill one of the several holes, for next season. I don’t want a package of 3 or 4 big question marks.

 

La Roche - Of course, they aren’t going to get much back, but that’s not the objective, which should be to clear roster space for the real clean up hitter, whom they must acquire for next season. You all know how I feel on this topic. If the Sox go into next season with Adam as the clean up hitter, I doubt that the offense will be very effective. With him gone, they could go after a free agent, probably another first baseman or DH. He was the wrong choice, and he won’t be the right choice for next season either.

 

Alexei - The Sox are almost certainly not going to exercise the option on him, so this is really his last season. He’ll likely hit better than he has so far, and hopefully some team needing a SS will give up something for him. Once gone, the Sox might pick the best, in organization, candidate and give him some valuable playing time. L. Garcia is still very young, and has had a decent season at AAA. Maybe he could temporarily fill the hole. Just how good is his defense at SS?

 

Maybe Saladino will get going. Whoever it is, he better have a solid glove and arm. I wish they would instruct Rondon to abandon switch hitting and see how he could handle RH pitching, from the right side of the plate. His defense is purportedly so good, that it wouldn’t take much offense to earn a spot.

I agree that Anderson is a long way from the Big Leagues. He can’t play defense and he doesn’t draw walks.

 

One of their relievers may have to be included to make a deal, but it doesn’t make much sense to just dump guys who have shown that they can perform out of the pen. I like Putnam, Petricka and of course, Robertson could be a huge plus, if this team can contend next year. Trading Duke just leaves a void with no other lefties in the pen.

 

I’m not worried about Melky. I think he’ll earn his contract and be good enough to fill the hole in LF. Gillaspie will probably hit better as well, and platooning him with a right handed hitting, sure handed third baseman, who can take over, in the late innings could be manageable.

 

The bottom line is that ownership is going to have to spend some big money, in the off season to get this team back in contention. I think that they would be better off acquiring a couple of impact bats, than trying to load up on prospects. By the time those prospects might be ready to contribute, Sale and Abreu could be past their primes.

I know that the farm system is badly in need of some talent, but I don't see this organization waiting another 3 or 4 years for a bunch of prospects to develop.

Edited by Lillian

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Fire Sale is the wrong course of business. You also have to remember as an organization, you need to be careful as to how you handle guys who you signed in the off-season. If you become an organization who quickly churns those guys, you will have a hard time signing guys in the future (without overbidding). With that said, Shark and Ramirez should clearly be moved, however, you should be careful as both could qualify for draft pick compensation, in which case, you have to make sure what you get is more valuable then the comp. I also wouldn't rush to move Alexei...I'd hope he would heat up and increase his value a bit.

 

The other key is going to be probably moving another one of our starters, such as Q, if we can, to again, target young position talent. Or, moving some of our prospects for position talent. One way or the other those are the types of moves that must be made.

 

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:55 PM)
Fire Sale is the wrong course of business. You also have to remember as an organization, you need to be careful as to how you handle guys who you signed in the off-season. If you become an organization who quickly churns those guys, you will have a hard time signing guys in the future (without overbidding). With that said, Shark and Ramirez should clearly be moved, however, you should be careful as both could qualify for draft pick compensation, in which case, you have to make sure what you get is more valuable then the comp. I also wouldn't rush to move Alexei...I'd hope he would heat up and increase his value a bit.

 

The other key is going to be probably moving another one of our starters, such as Q, if we can, to again, target young position talent. Or, moving some of our prospects for position talent. One way or the other those are the types of moves that must be made.

Alexei will not qualify for draft pick compensation. They have an option on him that is for $10 million, cheaper than it would cost to offer a "Qualifying offer" (over $15 million last year). Basically, the White Sox are extremely likely to decline his option this offseason based on his performance this season and that will cost them $1 million to do so. There will be no draft pick compensation for Alexei Ramirez.

 

Samardzija is likely still to receive the qualifying offer, but it's possible that if he keep pitching poorly the front office could actually hesitate on offering him the QO on the grounds that they wouldn't want/couldn't afford him accepting. Probably a low-likelihood scenario but worth keeping in mind.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:59 AM)
Alexei will not qualify for draft pick compensation. They have an option on him that is for $10 million, cheaper than it would cost to offer a "Qualifying offer" (over $15 million last year). Basically, the White Sox are extremely likely to decline his option this offseason based on his performance this season and that will cost them $1 million to do so. There will be no draft pick compensation for Alexei Ramirez.

 

Samardzija is likely still to receive the qualifying offer, but it's possible that if he keep pitching poorly the front office could actually hesitate on offering him the QO on the grounds that they wouldn't want/couldn't afford him accepting. Probably a low-likelihood scenario but worth keeping in mind.

Unless Jeff gets hurt, he'll get the QO. He hasn't been as good as we had hoped but he also hasn't been bad. Fair point on Alexei, I wasn't certain whether the option would impact things on comp side and it clearly would. If he hits a bit better (and he usually does as the season goes on), a team might value the flexibility of that option. Not saying we'd get a lot for him but should be able to get a guy who has the potential to be a league average starter (key being potential).

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 02:11 PM)
Unless Jeff gets hurt, he'll get the QO. He hasn't been as good as we had hoped but he also hasn't been bad. Fair point on Alexei, I wasn't certain whether the option would impact things on comp side and it clearly would. If he hits a bit better (and he usually does as the season goes on), a team might value the flexibility of that option. Not saying we'd get a lot for him but should be able to get a guy who has the potential to be a league average starter (key being potential).

Also worth noting that if a team trades for Samardzija, they would not receive a draft pick when he left, which will reduce the quality of offers available to us in trades as well.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 01:19 PM)
Also worth noting that if a team trades for Samardzija, they would not receive a draft pick when he left, which will reduce the quality of offers available to us in trades as well.

 

Not really. If the team trading for him doesn't give up atleast something comparable to a comp pick, you dont move him simple as that. There is no motivation for the Sox to move him for anything less than that. There is zero chance he accepts the qualifying offer.

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QUOTE (Dunt @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 02:26 PM)
Not really. If the team trading for him doesn't give up atleast something comparable to a comp pick, you dont move him simple as that. There is no motivation for the Sox to move him for anything less than that. There is zero chance he accepts the qualifying offer.

I think everything I said in that sentence was true. While what you also say is true, I would like to stress again that "a sandwich pick and the money to go with" is really a crappy value to get back for a player and would just be another sad comment on this season.

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