RockRaines Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:35 PM) So, that gets us back to where we are now. The Sox are an awful organization. Fear of change nets us nothing. Let's just be stagnant, continue to suck, watch Sale waste his best years until his arm blows up, watch Abreu get old and fat, and watch Q regress back to mean. The Sox are nowhere near contending. They don't have enough impact players on the farm. Our best prospect is a singles machine that can't field his position. They have to do something. Our best prospect is about to be a future top of the rotation pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 With Zimmerman hurt, I really would like to see the Sox try to unload LaRoche back to Washington. They love him there, and it wouldn't shock me if some of their struggles are due to missing his leadership. Getting out of his remaining salary would be a nice start at creating payroll flexibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:38 PM) Oh it could be worse. We could have no stars and no prospects, which isn't impossible in moves like this. They don't have stars as it is. They have some great players, but they aren't stars. It really couldn't be worse. Sale and Abreu don't sell tickets. Baseball doesn't work like that anymore. Winning and beer sells tickets. Â The team is abysmal. Attendance is abysmal. They don't have the assets to build around the 3 or 4 good players they have. They're dangerously close to being the Raiders of baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) From the comment thread on the article:  "The cost is high but he’s definitely not untouchable if only due to his contract. If Sale is to earn roughly $50MM over the rest of his contract and puts up $150MM in value, that’s $100MM in value they need to get back. Using a market rate of $8MM/Win, that’s 12.5 WAR they would need in order to move him. Doesn’t seem untouchable to get back several prospects who can be expected to contribute that amount, but they would need to be very good prospects. Even with Javier Baez’s terrible ML line last year, his KATOH projection is still over 5 WAR. Combined with Schwarber and Alcantara, and the players Dave proposed seem perfectly reasonable."  What the hell is KATOH? How reliable are prospect projections anyway? What if Schwarber can't cut it at catcher or LF and ends up becoming a DH, thus lowering his value considerably? Edited June 23, 2015 by OmarComing25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:43 PM) They don't have stars as it is. They have some great players, but they aren't stars. It really couldn't be worse. Sale and Abreu don't sell tickets. Baseball doesn't work like that anymore. Winning and beer sells tickets. Â The team is abysmal. Attendance is abysmal. They don't have the assets to build around the 3 or 4 good players they have. They're dangerously close to being the Raiders of baseball. How the hell is Sale not a star? He's arguably the best pitcher in baseball, top 3 at worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:41 PM) Our best prospect is about to be a future top of the rotation pitcher. Fulmer? Technically, he's not even in the damn organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 12:36 PM) Personally, I'd ask for Grandal, Seager and Urias for Sale and Danks. Wouldn't mind getting a quality starting catcher and 2 of the top 5 prospects in all of baseball while freeing up money with Danks gone. Â Yeah, a package based around Seager and Urias would at least be tempting. I don't see many other fits around baseball that would make a whole lot of sense but if you start with those two and add a few other pieces to the deal it is something the Sox would have to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:45 PM) How the hell is Sale not a star? He's arguably the best pitcher in baseball, top 3 at worst. When's the last time you saw Sale on a commercial or billboard the Sox weren't paying for? Star and great player are different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:45 PM) Fulmer? Technically, he's not even in the damn organization. Thats why I said "about to be" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:43 PM) From the comment thread on the article: "The cost is high but he’s definitely not untouchable if only due to his contract. If Sale is to earn roughly $50MM over the rest of his contract and puts up $150MM in value, that’s $100MM in value they need to get back. Using a market rate of $8MM/Win, that’s 12.5 WAR they would need in order to move him. Doesn’t seem untouchable to get back several prospects who can be expected to contribute that amount, but they would need to be very good prospects. Even with Javier Baez’s terrible ML line last year, his KATOH projection is still over 5 WAR. Combined with Schwarber and Alcantara, and the players Dave proposed seem perfectly reasonable."  What the hell is KATOH? How reliable are prospect projections anyway? What if Schwarber can't cut it at catcher or LF and ends up becoming a DH, thus lowering his value considerably? So he's saying trade Sale and his $150 million in value and get $100 million in value back. Yeah, that should make you a better team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:43 PM) They don't have stars as it is. They have some great players, but they aren't stars. It really couldn't be worse. Sale and Abreu don't sell tickets. Baseball doesn't work like that anymore. Winning and beer sells tickets. Â The team is abysmal. Attendance is abysmal. They don't have the assets to build around the 3 or 4 good players they have. They're dangerously close to being the Raiders of baseball. Â I quit reading here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:54 PM) I quit reading here. No you didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:24 PM) So move cost controlled young assets for a rebuild? Huh. Â My thoughts exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 How else should the Sox rebuild while keeping the few assets they have? They're so far from contending now that they're going have to get incredibly lucky to win while those assets are in their prime. Counting on luck is no way to run an organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:46 PM) When's the last time you saw Sale on a commercial or billboard the Sox weren't paying for? Star and great player are different. Â Wait, you are building your team around who is on billboards? That was even worse than I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:43 PM) From the comment thread on the article: "The cost is high but he’s definitely not untouchable if only due to his contract. If Sale is to earn roughly $50MM over the rest of his contract and puts up $150MM in value, that’s $100MM in value they need to get back. Using a market rate of $8MM/Win, that’s 12.5 WAR they would need in order to move him. Doesn’t seem untouchable to get back several prospects who can be expected to contribute that amount, but they would need to be very good prospects. Even with Javier Baez’s terrible ML line last year, his KATOH projection is still over 5 WAR. Combined with Schwarber and Alcantara, and the players Dave proposed seem perfectly reasonable."  What the hell is KATOH? How reliable are prospect projections anyway? What if Schwarber can't cut it at catcher or LF and ends up becoming a DH, thus lowering his value considerably?  KATOH is a very new, very raw, and very much NOT consensus way to identify prospect talent. It was developed by some kid who Fangraphs then hired, but even the kid himself will tell you that, at this point, it's an interesting data point to use more than it's a reliable projector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I like his harsh tone. He's just a writer so it means nothing, but it's nice to read negative stuff about this unlikeable team. He praised the only guys worth praising. I thought it was funny he said A. Garcia is awful. These guys need to start showing something or they deserve articles like that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 12:36 PM) Personally, I'd ask for Grandal, Seager and Urias for Sale and Danks. Wouldn't mind getting a quality starting catcher and 2 of the top 5 prospects in all of baseball while freeing up money with Danks gone. Â If you're moving Sale, you're not going to tie an anchor to him to save money. Without Sale, there's no need to reinvest that $14m next year anyway, and SOMEONE is going to have to soak those innings up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:57 PM) Wait, you are building your team around who is on billboards? That was even worse than I thought. Did I ever say that? It's pretty clear what I meant. For years you've said the Sox can't afford to rebuild. It's basically fear mongering. I'm saying the Sox can afford to rebuild because A. It can't get worse. B. The great players they do have aren't selling tickets anyway. Â The Sox rebuild will take longer than the window of Sale and Abreu being dominant players, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:00 PM) If you're moving Sale, you're not going to tie an anchor to him to save money. Without Sale, there's no need to reinvest that $14m next year anyway, and SOMEONE is going to have to soak those innings up. Yeah, I don't know why you have to take what would be fewer prospects so you don't have to pay Danks next year if you are dumping salary anyway and aren't going to be winning. If you are going for prospects, you don't include these guys in the deal lessening your reward. You just suck it up and pay them, and brag about your top farm system for a year or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:03 PM) Did I ever say that? It's pretty clear what I meant. For years you've said the Sox can't afford to rebuild. It's basically fear mongering. I'm saying the Sox can afford to rebuild because A. It can't get worse. B. The great players they do have aren't selling tickets anyway. Â The Sox rebuild will take longer than the window of Sale and Abreu being dominant players, IMO. Â This is you repeating the idea that some how that winning games is less important then billboards and selling tickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 12:50 PM) His proposed Sale to the Cubs trade is Schwarber, Baez, and Alcantara. I can't respect him after that proposal, to call it a joke is a complete understatement. I would burn down Rick Hahn's office if he made that trade. Â Agreed. That proposal is a joke. Sale's return would be unprecedented. Maybe Urias, Seager and Grandal get the Sox listening, but that I still don't think that's enough...maybe taking Danks contract too. Â He way undervalues Abreu. If he was a FA this offseason, he would have gotten a $200M deal. He'd get the Sox a HAUL if they wanted to move him. Â I don't think the Sox are thinking of moving Abreu or Sale, but it does make some sense if you could get Seager, Urias and Grandal for Sale and something slightly less for Abreu. Then trade Shark, Robertson and anything else that is able to be moved (Alexei, LaRoche, Beckham, etc.) and get as much as you can. It's intriguing, but this isn't going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:43 PM) They don't have stars as it is. They have some great players, but they aren't stars. It really couldn't be worse. Sale and Abreu don't sell tickets. Baseball doesn't work like that anymore. Winning and beer sells tickets. Â The team is abysmal. Attendance is abysmal. They don't have the assets to build around the 3 or 4 good players they have. They're dangerously close to being the Raiders of baseball. Â Uhhh...Sale is probably the best pitcher in baseball, if not he's top 3. How is that not a star??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 02:09 PM) This is you repeating the idea that some how that winning games is less important then billboards and selling tickets. No, not even close. You're really grasping at straws. It's differentiating between "star" and "great player." You're circumventing the argument because it goes against the "we can't rebuild because Sox" crap argument you've made for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 01:10 PM) Agreed. That proposal is a joke. Sale's return would be unprecedented. Maybe Urias, Seager and Grandal get the Sox listening, but that I still don't think that's enough...maybe taking Danks contract too. He way undervalues Abreu. If he was a FA this offseason, he would have gotten a $200M deal. He'd get the Sox a HAUL if they wanted to move him.  I don't think the Sox are thinking of moving Abreu or Sale, but it does make some sense if you could get Seager, Urias and Grandal for Sale and something slightly less for Abreu. Then trade Shark, Robertson and anything else that is able to be moved (Alexei, LaRoche, Beckham, etc.) and get as much as you can. It's intriguing, but this isn't going to happen.  Cameron doesn't undervalue our guys -- he had Sale and Abreu in the top 10 in his trade value rankings last year. Sale was his top-ranked pitcher in all of baseball.  If anything, he is overvaluing the prospects themselves, or, more accurately, he disagrees with how our board values prospects. I don't agree with that proposal either, but this isn't some kind of Sox-hate thing, no matter how fun that seems to be around here for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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