To all the KW haters...

[CubKilla]

Originally posted by Molto

and please, nobody give me that young bulls*** either.  I don't want to hear how young guys don't understand.

 

I've known how bad JR has been, and I've admitted KW's bad moves, but jesus christ, it is so damn frustrating seeing so many sox fans out there who just like to complain for fun.

 

really, it seems that the hatred for KW has been built more on your guys continual criticism than by what he's actually done.

 

the guy doesn't even have to make a mistake for the hatred for him to build.  as people continue to talk, it gets bigger and bigger.

 

If you haven't seen the light by now, you never will.

[rt59_bnsf]

Molto - I agree with everything you just said - what is it with our fellow Sox fans and our continual complaining. Our park isn't good enough, our GM sucks, parking's bad, bla bla bla....

 

:puke

[Molto]

haven't seen the light?

 

it is amazing how people simply don't read.

 

while many sox fans seem to always have s*** blocking their eyes, so they can't see the entire picture, I, like a few others here, look at things from every angle.

 

nobody has yet to explain or defend their point which is why KW is a bad GM.

 

all people can do, if anything at all, is point to a couple bad trades, but seem to miss all the good trades, which makes KW a decent GM.

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

go back and look at the articles in which kw has made statements.... how many has he delivered on thus far as opposed to the many which were complete bulls*** statements made due to the fact he needs to try to appease the fans with something and then never delivers..... just exactly where is our #2? and dont give me ritchie s***.........kw talks a talk but he has yet to learn the walk........as for our farm system.... yeah who of the guys we have up here are total home grown guys....ill give ya maggs, frank, buehrle....as for the others.. biddle,ginter,wright,garland,rauch,and the list goes on and on... none of them with the exception of the very first three i mentioned have done squat since their arrival.......sure siro hasnt pitched in two years, kip whinned like a baby and im not sad hes gone but hes doing quite well in pitts.....guys like ray ray gone and doing ok... jb gone and did alright for a while ....lord knows i love borchard but what has he done for us lately? im also hot on olivo but hes not proven up here yet....almonte, or hummel (who will never see comiskey park because theres no room for him),malone, ring, honel, all those guys have yet to prove up here at the major level they are capable of doing something....what if all the hype is wrong, as its starting to look that way for biddle,wright,and garland et el of those who came from their farm class.....you guys may be satisfied with subpar .500 ball but im getting sick of it.... time is now to s*** or get off the pot.. kw needs to step up and get us something decient or get the hell out of a job he has no clue how to do efficiently...........any one of us can run this team in a much more efficient way and get a better production percentage on the field than he has in the past couple of seasons....kw was handed a winning team which only needed a few tweeks here and there which would have made us a winner for a few seasons... instead he took that team and totaly destroyed it and we havent done s*** since........... im sorry but as i have stated many times on these boards.. i take away nothing from kw that he has done in the minors, he did great there and hes really a nice guy personally.. but when it comes to him being gm here he completely has no clue and totaly sucks at his job............and i for one would never in a million years want to work for him............

[LDF]

Originally posted by Molto

haven't seen the light? 

 

it is amazing how people simply don't read.

 

while many sox fans seem to always have s*** blocking their eyes, so they can't see the entire picture, I, like a few others here, look at things from every angle. 

 

nobody has yet to explain or defend their point which is why KW is a bad GM.

 

all people can do, if anything at all, is point to a couple bad trades, but seem to miss all the good trades, which makes KW a decent GM.

 

the same has to be true with you as well. ref the s*** blocking your eyes.

 

1. making the trade for clayton, against alot of people advice b/c he is a cancer.

2. firing the hitting coach b/c of clayton displeasure with him.

3. trading and f***ing up the la trade, berry vs berry

4. the clayton business to many to list, but after the 9/11 in kc he was sitting on the bench when everyone was out in the field for a moment of silence.

5. trading well, fogg and lowe for ritchie.

6. not getting rid of clayton sooner and still having to swallow his salary

7. trading for some players that never made it to the bigs.

8. the well trade that was a fiasco from the start,

9. getting fleeced in the ray durham trade that ALL the sport community agreed that kw was taken to the bank. which we still had to pay a mojority of his salary.

10. not pulling the trade on the howry trade when alot of people said to do it.

11. setting up the spy network

12 his clubhouse fiasco.

13. his failure to fire nardi sooner and yet deal with his friends in a postive way in the minors.

 

now this is not as important to me b/c they may have been asking for the bank, but the fa's and drafting is a wash to a certain extent.

 

but his crediablity is shot in what 3 yrs as gm wow.

[CubKilla]

Originally posted by LDF

Originally posted by Molto

haven't seen the light? 

 

it is amazing how people simply don't read.

 

while many sox fans seem to always have s*** blocking their eyes, so they can't see the entire picture, I, like a few others here, look at things from every angle. 

 

nobody has yet to explain or defend their point which is why KW is a bad GM.

 

all people can do, if anything at all, is point to a couple bad trades, but seem to miss all the good trades, which makes KW a decent GM.

 

the same has to be true with you as well. ref the s*** blocking your eyes.

 

1. making the trade for clayton, against alot of people advice b/c he is a cancer.

2. firing the hitting coach b/c of clayton displeasure with him.

3. trading and f***ing up the la trade, berry vs berry

4. the clayton business to many to list, but after the 9/11 in kc he was sitting on the bench when everyone was out in the field for a moment of silence.

5. trading well, fogg and lowe for ritchie.

6. not getting rid of clayton sooner and still having to swallow his salary

7. trading for some players that never made it to the bigs.

8. the well trade that was a fiasco from the start,

9. getting fleeced in the ray durham trade that ALL the sport community agreed that kw was taken to the bank. which we still had to pay a mojority of his salary.

10. not pulling the trade on the howry trade when alot of people said to do it.

11. setting up the spy network

12 his clubhouse fiasco.

13. his failure to fire nardi sooner and yet deal with his friends in a postive way in the minors.

 

now this is not as important to me b/c they may have been asking for the bank, but the fa's and drafting is a wash to a certain extent.

 

but his crediablity is shot in what 3 yrs as gm wow.

 

Thanks LDF. I didn't really feel like writing a point-to-point analysis as to why KW sucks so far in his job as GM. But you pretty much hit on all of them. Like the SCORE KW interview re-cap..... Thanks again

[witesoxfan]

Originally posted by LDF

the same has to be true with you as well. ref the s*** blocking your eyes. 

 

1. making the trade for clayton, against alot of people advice b/c he is a cancer. 

2. firing the hitting coach b/c of clayton displeasure with him.

3. trading and f***ing up the la trade, berry vs berry

4. the clayton business to many to list,  but after the 9/11 in kc he was sitting on the bench when everyone was out in the field for a moment of silence.

5. trading well, fogg and lowe for ritchie. 

6. not getting rid of clayton sooner and still having to swallow his salary

7. trading for some players that never made it to the bigs.

8. the well trade that was a fiasco from the start, 

9. getting fleeced in the ray durham trade that ALL the sport community agreed that kw was taken to the bank. which we still had to pay a mojority of his salary. 

10. not pulling the trade on the howry trade when alot of people said to do it. 

11. setting up the spy network

12 his clubhouse fiasco.

13. his failure to fire nardi sooner and yet deal with his friends in a postive way in the minors. 

 

now this is not as important to me b/c they may have been asking for the bank, but the fa's and drafting is a wash to a certain extent.

 

but his crediablity is shot in what 3 yrs as gm wow.

 

You could pretty much condense Clayton into one long, bad mistake...he realizes(or I sure hope to god he does) that that was a real s***ty move on his part.

 

He saw a need and replaced it quickly...he was a rookie GM. I think he'll be decent, but I will be critical of his every move. Thus far, I'd say his offseason has been a wash...Koch for Foulke was a wash, not getting anyone(so far) has been a wash, and you can't be critical of him not signing anyone unless the right offer comes forward...and the right offer hasn't come forward. He didn't want to give Jamie Moyer 3-years...no one did, except the Mariners. I wonder why in the hell Moyer resigned with the Mariners.

 

He won't be anything special, but he will be decent for a little bit anyways.

[Molto]

okay, going to counter your list one by one.

 

1. making the trade for clayton, against alot of people advice b/c he is a cancer.

Umm, we had two main weaknesses going into 2001. One, was that we didn't have that big ACE (not something I agree with, but 80% of the fans and media thought this way) the second was we had a 30+ error guy at short. just because Valentin didn't hurt us on "D", doesn't make his errors appropriate.

 

anyway, back to Clayton. Clayton was here to play defense. with the way our offense was in 2000 and how poorly Singleton played in center, KW figured let's get a defensive shortstop and throw Valentin in center. Our defense improves and our offense stays more or less the same switching from Singleton to Clayton. that didn't work out though. Not because of KW, but because Valentin sucked in center and our offense didn't live up its expectations

 

2. firing the hitting coach b/c of clayton displeasure with him.

And you have proof of this? he fired Joshua just like every other coach and manager are fired in sports, because the players weren't doing their job. no GM will fire a coach because of the bad offensive performance of an adequate hitter.

 

3. trading and f***ing up the la trade, berry vs berry

this point is taken. That was by far the dumbest thin he has done.

 

4. the clayton business to many to list, but after the 9/11 in kc he was sitting on the bench when everyone was out in the field for a moment of silence.

 

This just seems like an argument just so you could add numbers to this. very poor reason. If clayton was a dick, he was a dick, it DOES NOT STOP THE TEAM FROM PLAYING. ONE PLAYER'S ATTITUDE CAN NOT DISRUPT AN ENTIRE TEAM.

 

5. trading well, fogg and lowe for ritchie.

Not really a bad trade. Had we not pulled off that deal, we would've had no #2 going into the season and about 5-6 guys fighting for 2 spots. KW wanted a set rotation. he figured he'd get Ritchie, who was a solid pitcher, to go with Buehrle, Garland, Parque, and Wright/Biddle.

Also, Lowe has been released from two teams, Fogg has done nothing since the first half of last year and wasn't considered a top prospect with us (some didn't even know about him) even though I liked him. and Wells, he was a baby who was mediocre at best for 3 years. Ritchie could very well win 10-15 games and Wells could fall flat on his face this year. I'll give this to you though.

 

6. not getting rid of clayton sooner and still having to swallow his salary

Once again, this clayton thing could be in one category. and whether you guys want to believe it or not, Clayton never hurt this team. perhaps in the clubhouse, but he never hurt this team on the field. had we of put Valentin at short, we still wouldn't of made the playoffs.

 

7. trading for some players that never made it to the bigs.

Can you show a list with it, please?

the only guys I can think of are the guys we got from Lofton, Alomar, Howry, and Durham. when you are out of the playoff hunt and have old players, you aren't going to get proven guys in the return.

 

8. the well trade that was a fiasco from the start,

Like I said, the fans and media were pushing for a big name pitcher. Wells was it. Even though Wells didn't live up to his hype, Sirtoka pitched how many innings and has how many wins since? KW was going for it all in 2001, something Sox fans have wanted the Sox to do for some time now.

 

9. getting fleeced in the ray durham trade that ALL the sport community agreed that kw was taken to the bank. which we still had to pay a mojority of his salary.

Very true. However, Adkins is still with us and Durham is not iwth the A's. Still, we could've gotten more.

 

10. not pulling the trade on the howry trade when alot of people said to do it.

Explain this. no idea what you are talking about.

 

11. setting up the spy network

Agreed.

 

12 his clubhouse fiasco.

Once again, another topic that could be summed up with Clayton, cause that is who I assume you are pointing to.

 

13. his failure to fire nardi sooner and yet deal with his friends in a postive way in the minors.

Okay, should've fired Nardi sooner perhaps, but the second part means...?

 

Overall, you bring up a couple of good points, while the rest are pretty weak. You a taking a couple bad trades and a few unlucky occurrences and throwing them on him.

 

I am REALLY trying to see where you guys are coming entirely. I know why you guys should be upset with KW, but you guys are exagerating to the 10th degree.

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

well going from 95 wins to 81 is no exageration.....weve been downhill since kw came on the scene...............all he had to do is a little tweek here and there and we could have had the division for the past two seasons...

[LDF]

Originally posted by Molto

.

 

Text

okay, going to counter your list one by one.

 

1. making the trade for clayton, against alot of people advice b/c he is a cancer.

Umm, we had two main weaknesses going into 2001. One, was that we didn't have that big ACE (not something I agree with, but 80% of the fans and media thought this way) the second was we had a 30+ error guy at short. just because Valentin didn't hurt us on "D", doesn't make his errors appropriate.

 

Text

 

But if you remember the times came out with a report that broke down how much of those 30+errors cost us. The lost of games of runs were almost non-existence. Valentine value to us is more than playing just ss and that is why they tried to keep his bat and presence in the lineup. Here you have a rookie gm and wanted to make his mark, as he said he thought with jm presence that they could handle clayton. Well that failed and he said it when he was trying to trade him. He mention that he went against some people advice WARNING that clayton is a cancer.

 

anyway, back to Clayton. Clayton was here to play defense. with the way our offense was in 2000 and how poorly Singleton played in center, KW figured let's get a defensive shortstop and throw Valentin in center. Our defense improves and our offense stays more or less the same switching from Singleton to Clayton. that didn't work out though. Not because of KW, but because Valentin sucked in center and our offense didn't live up its expectations

 

You take a positional player out of his position and expect him to play another position and yeah they are going to suck. Valentine as I said brings more to the table and we shouldn’t have gotten clayton.

 

2. firing the hitting coach b/c of clayton displeasure with him.

And you have proof of this? he fired Joshua just like every other coach and manager are fired in sports, because the players weren't doing their job. no GM will fire a coach because of the bad offensive performance of an adequate hitter.

 

Text

The time and trib both had articles on this, what more do you want? The story went that Joshua confronted Royce about some extra batting practice b/c of his low ba and tried to give him advice. Clayton came back at him and an argument ensued.

 

3. trading and f***ing up the la trade, berry vs berry

this point is taken. That was by far the dumbest thin he has done.

 

4. the clayton business to many to list, but after the 9/11 in kc he was sitting on the bench when everyone was out in the field for a moment of silence.

 

This just seems like an argument just so you could add numbers to this. very poor reason. If clayton was a dick, he was a dick, it DOES NOT STOP THE TEAM FROM PLAYING. ONE PLAYER'S ATTITUDE CAN NOT DISRUPT AN ENTIRE TEAM.

 

Text

This was an attempt to make a chronology of his two yrs as gm grew. He is now starting his 3 yr. Some player has said the the chemistry was change and strain. In a article someone mention how they were tension in the clubhouse and yes I will ALWAYS SAY THAT CHEMISTRY IS IMPORTANT ON ANY TEAM. You have players and other teams that went out and immediately traded players b/c of their attitude. Perfect example is the Horace grant where doc river told the gm the trade or get rid of Horace.

 

5. trading well, fogg and lowe for ritchie.

Not really a bad trade. Had we not pulled off that deal, we would've had no #2 going into the season and about 5-6 guys fighting for 2 spots. KW wanted a set rotation. he figured he'd get Ritchie, who was a solid pitcher, to go with Buehrle, Garland, Parque, and Wright/Biddle.

Also, Lowe has been released from two teams, Fogg has done nothing since the first half of last year and wasn't considered a top prospect with us (some didn't even know about him) even though I liked him. and Wells, he was a baby who was mediocre at best for 3 years. Ritchie could very well win 10-15 games and Wells could fall flat on his face this year. I'll give this to you though.

 

Text

So what is your definition of a good trade? You must be delusional if you think that a player puts up a 5-15 record vs. 2 players who put up a 500 record. Ummmm. The pit pitching coach as well as wells and fogg has said that the change in pitching coach was the difference in the turn around.

 

Ref to Ritchie could have been a 10-15…. Wow and I could’ve won the lottery. Better yet the sox could’ve traded Tony g, Harris and Hummel to mont for Vlad.

 

6. not getting rid of clayton sooner and still having to swallow his salary

Once again, this clayton thing could be in one category. and whether you guys want to believe it or not, Clayton never hurt this team. perhaps in the clubhouse, but he never hurt this team on the field. had we of put Valentin at short, we still wouldn't of made the playoffs.

 

Text

Again I am trying a chronology. Let me get this straight, you said that a players personality does not affect or should not affect a team and now you are saying that MAYBE or PERHAPS he did hurt in the clubhouse. Make up your mind on this issue. But most importantly is the salary that kw was trying to justify. This has a trickle down effect.

 

7. trading for some players that never made it to the bigs.

Can you show a list with it, please?

the only guys I can think of are the guys we got from Lofton, Alomar, Howry, and Durham. when you are out of the playoff hunt and have old players, you aren't going to get proven guys in the return.

 

Text

Here are some of the players who wanted to know about, Onan Masaoka, Wade Parrish, jeff berry, Julio Ramirez, Mike Williams, Mike Rupp, Amaury Garcia.

 

8. the well trade that was a fiasco from the start,

Like I said, the fans and media were pushing for a big name pitcher. Wells was it. Even though Wells didn't live up to his hype, Sirtoka pitched how many innings and has how many wins since? KW was going for it all in 2001, something Sox fans have wanted the Sox to do for some time now.

 

Text

I had like the sirtoka trade, but was disappointed in david wells. But kw rep was tarnish from that and I wonder if kw didn’t really try to pull a fast one. That is my querry.

 

9. getting fleeced in the ray durham trade that ALL the sport community agreed that kw was taken to the bank. which we still had to pay a mojority of his salary.

Very true. However, Adkins is still with us and Durham is not iwth the A's. Still, we could've gotten more.

 

Text

We paid for most of Durham salary, we got a player who was lit up in his career in the minors and all this for a former all-star. So you really think that all this is a wash for a pit who may NEVER make it out of the minors? So what if ray is not with the team, we are talking about him getting fleeced in the trade.

 

10. not pulling the trade on the howry trade when alot of people said to do it.

Explain this. no idea what you are talking about.

 

Text

I am talking about the deal that evans approach kw about, la wanted howry for a player who had a break out yr or something to that effect.

 

11. setting up the spy network

Agreed.

 

12 his clubhouse fiasco.

Once again, another topic that could be summed up with Clayton, cause that is who I assume you are pointing to.

 

Text

Was this all for clayton? I think not.

 

13. his failure to fire nardi sooner and yet deal with his friends in a postive way in the minors.

Okay, should've fired Nardi sooner perhaps, but the second part means...?

 

Text

D. Boston is not a coach or basically his only qualification if that he is kw friend. Nardi was reassign to what class a team and the same team is having prob with the coach. There was even talk of a mutiny from the players and this guy is a kw friend. The newspapers mention this this summer.

 

Overall, you bring up a couple of good points, while the rest are pretty weak. You a taking a couple bad trades and a few unlucky occurrences and throwing them on him.

 

Text

Taking about weak points how bout listing why we should consider kw a hall of fame gm? What has he done to bring us that championship ring?

 

I am REALLY trying to see where you guys are coming entirely. I know why you guys should be upset with KW, but you guys are exagerating to the 10th degree.

 

Text

THEN OPEN YOUR eyes and sees what is being said. B/c you have yet to comprehend what is being said. All this was done in 2 yrs at the helm. Great work!

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

it took longer to bring down the berlin wall and to disburse russia into their own seperate places... than it took kw to f*** up this team.............

[rt59_bnsf]

FALSE MYTH - we would have won in 2001 with a few minor tweaks.

 

Eldred's arm fell off, Baldwin was/is/always will be bad - come on people this guy had two decent months in his whole career and we're acting like we're the Cubs and lost Greg Maddux, Sirotka's shoulder fell off, Parque's shoulder fell off - am I missing anyone?

 

Sorry - it wasn't going to happen with a few minor tweaks. 2000 happened and it was great - but that pitching staff didn't even make it to the end of THAT year.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Originally posted by LDF

Originally posted by Molto

haven't seen the light? 

 

it is amazing how people simply don't read.

 

while many sox fans seem to always have s*** blocking their eyes, so they can't see the entire picture, I, like a few others here, look at things from every angle. 

 

nobody has yet to explain or defend their point which is why KW is a bad GM.

 

all people can do, if anything at all, is point to a couple bad trades, but seem to miss all the good trades, which makes KW a decent GM.

 

the same has to be true with you as well. ref the s*** blocking your eyes.

 

1. making the trade for clayton, against alot of people advice b/c he is a cancer.

2. firing the hitting coach b/c of clayton displeasure with him.

3. trading and f***ing up the la trade, berry vs berry

4. the clayton business to many to list, but after the 9/11 in kc he was sitting on the bench when everyone was out in the field for a moment of silence.

5. trading well, fogg and lowe for ritchie.

6. not getting rid of clayton sooner and still having to swallow his salary

7. trading for some players that never made it to the bigs.

8. the well trade that was a fiasco from the start,

9. getting fleeced in the ray durham trade that ALL the sport community agreed that kw was taken to the bank. which we still had to pay a mojority of his salary.

10. not pulling the trade on the howry trade when alot of people said to do it.

11. setting up the spy network

12 his clubhouse fiasco.

13. his failure to fire nardi sooner and yet deal with his friends in a postive way in the minors.

 

now this is not as important to me b/c they may have been asking for the bank, but the fa's and drafting is a wash to a certain extent.

 

but his crediablity is shot in what 3 yrs as gm wow.

 

1) JM wanted a SS that wouldn't make errors. Clayton was a "clubhouse cancer" because some f***ing bum didn't like his rap music. Yeah, he's automatically a clubhouse cancer.

 

2) How f***ing stupid are you? Von Joshua was fired because he sat on his ass and did nothing. He didn't preach taking BP or anything.

 

3) No argument.

 

4) Only players and coaches go on the field minutes befroe a game. GM's shouldn't be out there, and he has his own right to sit the f*** down if he wants.

 

5) Wells stunk, everyone was sad to see Lowe go. Yes, he overpaid.

 

6) Nobody wanted him. Royce was one of "Jerry's kids", KW had to find an excuse to let him go.

 

7) Oh, so we shouldn't trade overhyped veterans to rejuvenate the farm system? Felix Diaz, Ryan Meaux, and Frankie Francisco could play a very large part in the bullpen's future. f***, I think we should just stop drafting people past the 10th round, because they don't have much of a chance!

 

8) It made sense to go after Boomer. Too bad he was a complete douche.

 

9) No argument, but why don't you mention that KW fleeced Sabean by getting Meaux and Diaz? Oh, I forgot, we're open minded people who never look at the good things he's done. Oh, ok.

 

10) Howry blew ass, and we have enough minor leaguers to fill in for him.

 

11, 12) No argument.

 

13) JM was still attached to his crew that he brought it.

[LDF]

now that i am back i wanted to say this, we went through what you posted and answered it. try doing the other one with the new 20 response.

[Molto]

but only few of those 20 have legit complaints in it. the majority are just F KW or KW SUCKS, FIRE KW. this and that.

 

like I said. people bring up the few KW mistakes and escalate it to a 10th degree.

[baggio202]

the LA trade was howry for eric gagne...at the last minute KW tried to get a prospect from LA and evans nixed the deal..

[LDF]

Originally posted by LDF

Originally posted by Molto

.

 

Text

okay, going to counter your list one by one.

 

1. making the trade for clayton, against alot of people advice b/c he is a cancer.

Umm, we had two main weaknesses going into 2001. One, was that we didn't have that big ACE (not something I agree with, but 80% of the fans and media thought this way) the second was we had a 30+ error guy at short. just because Valentin didn't hurt us on "D", doesn't make his errors appropriate.

 

Text

 

But if you remember the times came out with a report that broke down how much of those 30+errors cost us. The lost of games of runs were almost non-existence. Valentine value to us is more than playing just ss and that is why they tried to keep his bat and presence in the lineup. Here you have a rookie gm and wanted to make his mark, as he said he thought with jm presence that they could handle clayton. Well that failed and he said it when he was trying to trade him. He mention that he went against some people advice WARNING that clayton is a cancer.

 

anyway, back to Clayton. Clayton was here to play defense. with the way our offense was in 2000 and how poorly Singleton played in center, KW figured let's get a defensive shortstop and throw Valentin in center. Our defense improves and our offense stays more or less the same switching from Singleton to Clayton. that didn't work out though. Not because of KW, but because Valentin sucked in center and our offense didn't live up its expectations

 

You take a positional player out of his position and expect him to play another position and yeah they are going to suck. Valentine as I said brings more to the table and we shouldn’t have gotten clayton.

 

2. firing the hitting coach b/c of clayton displeasure with him.

And you have proof of this? he fired Joshua just like every other coach and manager are fired in sports, because the players weren't doing their job. no GM will fire a coach because of the bad offensive performance of an adequate hitter.

 

Text

The time and trib both had articles on this, what more do you want? The story went that Joshua confronted Royce about some extra batting practice b/c of his low ba and tried to give him advice. Clayton came back at him and an argument ensued.

 

3. trading and f***ing up the la trade, berry vs berry

this point is taken. That was by far the dumbest thin he has done.

 

4. the clayton business to many to list, but after the 9/11 in kc he was sitting on the bench when everyone was out in the field for a moment of silence.

 

This just seems like an argument just so you could add numbers to this. very poor reason. If clayton was a dick, he was a dick, it DOES NOT STOP THE TEAM FROM PLAYING. ONE PLAYER'S ATTITUDE CAN NOT DISRUPT AN ENTIRE TEAM.

 

Text

This was an attempt to make a chronology of his two yrs as gm grew. He is now starting his 3 yr. Some player has said the the chemistry was change and strain. In a article someone mention how they were tension in the clubhouse and yes I will ALWAYS SAY THAT CHEMISTRY IS IMPORTANT ON ANY TEAM. You have players and other teams that went out and immediately traded players b/c of their attitude. Perfect example is the Horace grant where doc river told the gm the trade or get rid of Horace.

 

5. trading well, fogg and lowe for ritchie.

Not really a bad trade. Had we not pulled off that deal, we would've had no #2 going into the season and about 5-6 guys fighting for 2 spots. KW wanted a set rotation. he figured he'd get Ritchie, who was a solid pitcher, to go with Buehrle, Garland, Parque, and Wright/Biddle.

Also, Lowe has been released from two teams, Fogg has done nothing since the first half of last year and wasn't considered a top prospect with us (some didn't even know about him) even though I liked him. and Wells, he was a baby who was mediocre at best for 3 years. Ritchie could very well win 10-15 games and Wells could fall flat on his face this year. I'll give this to you though.

 

Text

So what is your definition of a good trade? You must be delusional if you think that a player puts up a 5-15 record vs. 2 players who put up a 500 record. Ummmm. The pit pitching coach as well as wells and fogg has said that the change in pitching coach was the difference in the turn around.

 

Ref to Ritchie could have been a 10-15…. Wow and I could’ve won the lottery. Better yet the sox could’ve traded Tony g, Harris and Hummel to mont for Vlad.

 

6. not getting rid of clayton sooner and still having to swallow his salary

Once again, this clayton thing could be in one category. and whether you guys want to believe it or not, Clayton never hurt this team. perhaps in the clubhouse, but he never hurt this team on the field. had we of put Valentin at short, we still wouldn't of made the playoffs.

 

Text

Again I am trying a chronology. Let me get this straight, you said that a players personality does not affect or should not affect a team and now you are saying that MAYBE or PERHAPS he did hurt in the clubhouse. Make up your mind on this issue. But most importantly is the salary that kw was trying to justify. This has a trickle down effect.

 

7. trading for some players that never made it to the bigs.

Can you show a list with it, please?

the only guys I can think of are the guys we got from Lofton, Alomar, Howry, and Durham. when you are out of the playoff hunt and have old players, you aren't going to get proven guys in the return.

 

Text

Here are some of the players who wanted to know about, Onan Masaoka, Wade Parrish, jeff berry, Julio Ramirez, Mike Williams, Mike Rupp, Amaury Garcia.

 

8. the well trade that was a fiasco from the start,

Like I said, the fans and media were pushing for a big name pitcher. Wells was it. Even though Wells didn't live up to his hype, Sirtoka pitched how many innings and has how many wins since? KW was going for it all in 2001, something Sox fans have wanted the Sox to do for some time now.

 

Text

I had like the sirtoka trade, but was disappointed in david wells. But kw rep was tarnish from that and I wonder if kw didn’t really try to pull a fast one. That is my querry.

 

9. getting fleeced in the ray durham trade that ALL the sport community agreed that kw was taken to the bank. which we still had to pay a mojority of his salary.

Very true. However, Adkins is still with us and Durham is not iwth the A's. Still, we could've gotten more.

 

Text

We paid for most of Durham salary, we got a player who was lit up in his career in the minors and all this for a former all-star. So you really think that all this is a wash for a pit who may NEVER make it out of the minors? So what if ray is not with the team, we are talking about him getting fleeced in the trade.

 

10. not pulling the trade on the howry trade when alot of people said to do it.

Explain this. no idea what you are talking about.

 

Text

I am talking about the deal that evans approach kw about, la wanted howry for a player who had a break out yr or something to that effect.

 

11. setting up the spy network

Agreed.

 

12 his clubhouse fiasco.

Once again, another topic that could be summed up with Clayton, cause that is who I assume you are pointing to.

 

Text

Was this all for clayton? I think not.

 

13. his failure to fire nardi sooner and yet deal with his friends in a postive way in the minors.

Okay, should've fired Nardi sooner perhaps, but the second part means...?

 

Text

D. Boston is not a coach or basically his only qualification if that he is kw friend. Nardi was reassign to what class a team and the same team is having prob with the coach. There was even talk of a mutiny from the players and this guy is a kw friend. The newspapers mention this this summer.

 

Overall, you bring up a couple of good points, while the rest are pretty weak. You a taking a couple bad trades and a few unlucky occurrences and throwing them on him.

 

Text

Taking about weak points how bout listing why we should consider kw a hall of fame gm? What has he done to bring us that championship ring?

 

I am REALLY trying to see where you guys are coming entirely. I know why you guys should be upset with KW, but you guys are exagerating to the 10th degree.

 

Text

THEN OPEN YOUR eyes and sees what is being said. B/c you have yet to comprehend what is being said. All this was done in 2 yrs at the helm. Great work!

 

for some reason i screwed up on the highlights. but where the text started is my response. so molto, tell me where i am saying f kw, or fire him. don't put words in my mouth. i usually do a fine job of inserting my foot in there. i made a very good rebuttal and listed the players that kw traded for that was a wash.

 

the few that were a success is small in comparsion to the major trades that set in motion the failing of the sox. the major mistakes are huge and you can't close a blind eye to them. the major is clayton and the damage that he might have contributed to the clubhouse.

 

his trade has done more harm at this present time than that of what might develop.

 

cerb

 

1) JM wanted a SS that wouldn't make errors. Clayton was a "clubhouse cancer" because some f***ing bum didn't like his rap music. Yeah, he's automatically a clubhouse cancer.

 

you are a real idiot, his rep started out of stl before he even made it to tex. know your facts before you open your mouth, it makes you look like the real idiot you really are.

 

2) How f***ing stupid are you? Von Joshua was fired because he sat on his ass and did nothing. He didn't preach taking BP or anything.

 

 

you calling f***ing stupid when again you don't know your fact. kw even acknowledge last yr that if he had a chance to do it over again he wouldn't have fired him. you and your love affair with clayton that you can't even see the real facts. btw you moron, its been mention many times that clayton lead to the coach getting fired.

 

 

5) k Wells stunk,

 

 

yep to put up decent numbers. it amazes me sooo much how sports writers have all mention that this was a huge mistake and yet you say that he stunk. you are really lacking in the creditability here. who do you think knows more, you or a sports wtiter?

 

 

6) Nobody wanted him. Royce was one of "Jerry's kids", KW had to find an excuse to let him go.

 

again you do not know your facts. kw been trying to trade his ass since he got him with no takers. either way, the sox are going to pay his salary. i say he should have been let go and swallow the lost, but he didn't. so the question is why? i say it was he didn't want to look like an idiot coming out of the gate.

 

7) Oh, so we shouldn't trade overhyped veterans to rejuvenate the farm system? Felix Diaz, Ryan Meaux, and Frankie Francisco could play a very large part in the bullpen's future. f***, I think we should just stop drafting people past the 10th round, because they don't have much of a chance!

 

what the f*** are you saying here and what does drafting have to do with anything? these guys haven't done s*** yet and until they do, don't count on them as being a success. remember, of the recent trades, we gave up an all star 2b for a reallllll amazing career minor leaguer. wow. i am really impress.

 

9) No argument, but why don't you mention that KW fleeced Sabean by getting Meaux and Diaz? Oh, I forgot, we're open minded people who never look at the good things he's done. Oh, ok.

 

Same as before. but i am listing what got us to this point and how kw image came to being.

 

 

13) JM was still attached to his crew that he brought it.

 

what has d boston has done to warrant his promotion to the bigs except being kw friend. the coach even mention that boston was worthless and we are talking about greg walker who is coaching in 3A.

 

until anything pans out, only several trades has help. whereas most of his other actions he has done would have gotten most others fired.

[Molto]

wasn't trying to put words in your mouth LDF, I don't do that. I was just simply repeating the phrases I've heard for the last two years.

 

you are making some points, but nothing I don't know about or that will change my mind, so I guess we should agree to dissagree.

 

all I'm saying is that KW, despite everyone's hatred, is not has bad as people have made him out to be. he's made a couple bad moves, but has also made some good moves, which I don't hear much about.

[CubKilla]

Originally posted by Molto

 

all I'm saying is that KW, despite everyone's hatred, is not has bad as people have made him out to be.  he's made a couple bad moves, but has also made some good moves, which I don't hear much about.

 

That's because his bad moves have done more to worsen the team than his good moves have done to help it.

[CubKilla]

Originally posted by CubKilla

Originally posted by Molto

 

all I'm saying is that KW, despite everyone's hatred, is not has bad as people have made him out to be.  he's made a couple bad moves, but has also made some good moves, which I don't hear much about.

 

That's because his bad moves have done more to worsen the team than his good moves have done to help it.

 

Let me add to my last post that that is up to now before all the KW Lovers start in on me

[Cerbaho-WG]

LDF:

 

you are a real idiot, his rep started out of stl before he even made it to tex. know your facts before you open your mouth, it makes you look like the real idiot you really are.

 

Seems to me that Tubbo Wells was the actual clubhouse cancer in 2001, and in 2002 Clayton didn't do a thing. He whined to Manuel after getting benched. Oh, he's a clubhouse cancer all-right.

 

you calling f***ing stupid when again you don't know your fact. kw even acknowledge last yr that if he had a chance to do it over again he wouldn't have fired him. you and your love affair with clayton that you can't even see the real facts. btw you moron, its been mention many times that clayton lead to the coach getting fired.

 

Get me a report that says Clayton led to the firing of Von Joshua, then I might believe you. It was reported over and over, that Joshua was a f***ing bum, and was lazy as all hell.

 

yep to put up decent numbers. it amazes me sooo much how sports writers have all mention that this was a huge mistake and yet you say that he stunk. you are really lacking in the creditability here. who do you think knows more, you or a sports wtiter?

 

Are you f***ing insane? Did you not see Kip Wells crap his pants over and over and over on the mound? This guy ahd three years to get his s*** together, and he continually failed. He couldn't pitch inside, or get his breaking balls over. Nardi ruined him, plain and simple. He goes to Pittsburgh, sees an actual pitching coach, and wallah.

 

what the f*** are you saying here and what does drafting have to do with anything? these guys haven't done s*** yet and until they do, don't count on them as being a success. remember, of the recent trades, we gave up an all star 2b for a reallllll amazing career minor leaguer. wow. i am really impress.

 

So, by your method to the madness, we should go out and get proven veterans instead of young guys. Guess who tried the same thing the last two years, KW!@!!!! By your opinion, as I stated earlier, we should just stop drafting people all-together. I mean, they haven't proven anything at the big league level, so why draft? Think before you speak.

 

what has d boston has done to warrant his promotion to the bigs except being kw friend. the coach even mention that boston was worthless and we are talking about greg walker who is coaching in 3A.

 

Did you just realize that it's not who you are, but who you know? Remove your head from your ass, god damn.

 

 

LDF, I'm not even going to acknowledge you in this thread anymore, for two reasons:

 

1) You're just spewing out garbage. Your opinions conflict with your others at every step in the road. I'd rather ram my head into a wall.

 

2) Learn to type. I'm sorry, but it's almost impossible to see what you're trying to say. Half the time, I have no clue what you're trying to say. If you typed better, you'd relay your points better.

[Mr. Showtime]

Bravo, Cerb.

[LDF]

Originally posted by Cerbaho-WG

 

 

 

LDF, I'm not even going to acknowledge you in this thread anymore, for two reasons:

 

1) You're just spewing out garbage. Your opinions conflict with your others at every step in the road. I'd rather ram my head into a wall.

 

 

i have not crossed my reasons, you just can't admit when you are full of s*** in your love affair with kw and he can't do no wrong attitude. 

 

 

 

2) Learn to type. I'm sorry, but it's almost impossible to see what you're trying to say. Half the time, I have no clue what you're trying to say. If you typed better, you'd relay your points better.

 

first it the english and now the typing, you are a real weak individual and i am really sorry to say that i, at 1 time may have enjoyed what you wrote.

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

Originally posted by Molto

all I'm saying is that KW, despite everyone's hatred, is not has bad as people have made him out to be.  he's made a couple bad moves, but has also made some good moves, which I don't hear much about.

 

you dont hear about them cause were still waiting on those moves to pan out.....so untill they do KW STILL SUCKS AS A GM.......period............:**** kenny williams

[Guest Ncorgbl]

"Face it, we weren't ever going to get Byrd, or anyone of high profile for FA. The only other option is trading the farm. Do any of you want to take a chance on one year, instead of hoping the farm will come through? Do any of you even f***ing know that KW basically BUILT our farm system?"

 

 

Williams RAN the farm systrem, but he did not BUILD it. Get your facts straight before you spout off.