Why NOT trade Chris Sale?

[TheFutureIsNear]

While quality is obviously important I think quantity also needs to be considered given the present lack of position player talent throughout the organization. 1 of Seager/Pederson would have to be involved, but I think I might take a package of lesser guys rather than trying to hold out for both. 1 of Pederson/Seager + 1 of kikè Hernandez/Jose Peraza, + Austin Barnes, + Scott Van Slyke sounds like a great package to me. Maybe even DeLeon too if it's Sale involved.

Edited December 5, 2015 by TheFutureIsNear

[nitetrain8601]

While quality is obviously important I think quantity also needs to be considered given the present lack of position player talent throughout the organization. 1 of Seager/Pederson would have to be involved, but I think I might take a package of lesser guys rather than trying to hold out for both. 1 of Pederson/Seager + 1 of kikè Hernandez/Jose Peraza, + Austin Barnes, + Scott Van Slyke sounds like a great package to me. Maybe even DeLeon too if it's Sale involved.

 

You're asking for all their prospects, lol. But you have the right idea. If they don't want to deal both Pederson/Seager or Puig, I'd go for the Seager or Pederson + Verdugo + Barnes.

[spiderman]

The question is in the title. Why should they keep him? Why should they not? You know where I lean, but as an economist, that always garners an "it depends."

 

I'm drunk and bored and want to light a fire. I like chaos.

 

But seriously..why not? I've been away. Talk to me goose.

 

He may have the best contract in baseball, and is an elite, #1 type starter. He's still young as well.

 

Any team that wants him would have to have an elite farm system, and I would want 5 of their top prospects. This would include young, talent in the majors as well.

 

Even if there's wiggle room on the number of prospects to be returned, and the exact prospects, a team that wants Chris Sale would have to move it's most prized pieces for him, and that's not something some teams would probably do.

 

By my above requirements, it would be very tough to move Sale to all but 10 teams (and that number is probably generous) amongst teams with strong minor league systems like the Cubs, Astros, Red Sox, Twins, Pirates, Mets, Dodgers and I'm sure there's another team or two, but it's difficult to get true value for Chris Sale given that the other team involved is unlikely to move as many pieces as the White Sox would want.

 

It is frustrating to see the position that the White Sox are in. They have the makings of a pretty good pitching staff with some questions, but the hitting (middle of the order)/defense and the gaping holes all over the field really make it difficult to compete with the team unlikely to be big spenders as probably exploring more of the bargain additions this off-season.

[LDF]

While quality is obviously important I think quantity also needs to be considered given the present lack of position player talent throughout the organization. 1 of Seager/Pederson would have to be involved, but I think I might take a package of lesser guys rather than trying to hold out for both. 1 of Pederson/Seager + 1 of kikè Hernandez/Jose Peraza, + Austin Barnes, + Scott Van Slyke sounds like a great package to me. Maybe even DeLeon too if it's Sale involved.

 

going with the numbers you mention, i too am looking for quantity and i hate that i needed to look at this way. but those holes are glaring.

 

i will not go for ped nor seag nor urias, instead i am looking for a little more in prospects.

 

i like hernandez + peraza move to ss + barnes there is some question as of late on whether he can catch at the mlb level + holmes + farmer + Heredia + comp pick

[ChiSox59]

I think so as well. And they still value Puig very highly. That's why for me, I think a Seager, Pederson/Verdugo would be fine. If you can squeeze out Puig from them too, that would be great.

 

Seager and Pedrson/Verdugo doesn't even come close to sniffing Sale. Not even close.

[nitetrain8601]

going with the numbers you mention, i too am looking for quantity and i hate that i needed to look at this way. but those holes are glaring.

 

i will not go for ped nor seag nor urias, instead i am looking for a little more in prospects.

 

i like hernandez + peraza move to ss + barnes there is some question as of late on whether he can catch at the mlb level + holmes + farmer + Heredia + comp pick

 

I wouldn't go for Urias as he doesn't fill a need. But Seager can play SS, 3B or 2B. Pederson or Verdugo fill an OF spot. I don't view k*** as being any better than just a glue guy. Barnes would be a nice get too IMO. I would want to follow up a Sale trade with a Q trade to Boston or the Cubs. From the Red Sox I would want Swihart and Devers. From the Cubs I would want Soler + Contreras.

[OmarComing25]

I wouldn't go for Urias as he doesn't fill a need. But Seager can play SS, 3B or 2B. Pederson or Verdugo fill an OF spot. I don't view k*** as being any better than just a glue guy. Barnes would be a nice get too IMO. I would want to follow up a Sale trade with a Q trade to Boston or the Cubs. From the Red Sox I would want Swihart and Devers. From the Cubs I would want Soler + Contreras.

Soler + Contreras for Q? Pass. Soler was replacement level this year even with an unsustainably high BABIP and even modest improvement from him means only 1ish WAR. Contreras is nice but when he's the biggest piece in a 2-person deal that's a problem.

 

Why would Urias not fill a need? If we trade Sale then pitching suddenly becomes a huge need.

[nitetrain8601]

Seager and Pedrson/Verdugo doesn't even come close to sniffing Sale. Not even close.

 

Again, I'll wait for someone to show me where the precedence is three top 10 prospects in all of baseball. I don't think even Johann Santana commanded that much.

[ChiSox59]

Again, I'll wait for someone to show me where the precedence is three top 10 prospects in all of baseball. I don't think even Johann Santana commanded that much.

 

There is no precedence. That's why he probably won't be traded for a few years, if at all.

 

Plus, you can't just compare Sale to past elite pitchers in a vacuum. His contract is an enormous differentiator that adds oodles of value.

[nitetrain8601]

Soler + Contreras for Q? Pass. Soler was replacement level this year even with an unsustainably high BABIP and even modest improvement from him means only 1ish WAR. Contreras is nice but when he's the biggest piece in a 2-person deal that's a problem.

 

Why would Urias not fill a need? If we trade Sale then pitching suddenly becomes a huge need.

 

Because the #1 thing this team can develop is pitching. We still have pitching in the wings. Like I've asked the others, show me where commanding a team's last 3 #1 prospects that haven't busted become precedence for an ace pitcher? Seager + Verdugo/Contreras fill a need. You can probably get a lower A prospect as well. They had this pitcher pitching in the fall league that looked like he can be something if you're so hell-bent on pitching. I'll take the everyday players. What's to stop the Dodgers from laughing at that and then dealing maybe one of those prospects for S. Miller from Atlanta.

 

Yes, I want all of the Dodgers prospects, but that's never going to happen.

[nitetrain8601]

There is no precedence. That's why he probably won't be traded for a few years, if at all.

 

Plus, you can't just compare Sale to past elite pitchers in a vacuum. His contract is an enormous differentiator that adds oodles of value.

 

But you can. There's no justifying what you guys are asking for. Yes, I want the Dodgers top 5 prospects as well, 3 of which are MLB ready. But that ain't happening.

[ChiSox59]

But you can. There's no justifying what you guys are asking for. Yes, I want the Dodgers top 5 prospects as well, 3 of which are MLB ready. But that ain't happening.

 

Yeah, I agree. That's why he won't be traded.

[ChiSox59]

But you can. There's no justifying what you guys are asking for. Yes, I want the Dodgers top 5 prospects as well, 3 of which are MLB ready. But that ain't happening.

 

You don't just settle for the best offer when you have one of the most valuable trade chips and most dominate pitchers in the game under contract for 4 more years. You wait til you get what you want, or you don't trade him.

 

Settling for less would be incredibly dumb, and I am confident the Sox aren't that stupid.

[nitetrain8601]

Yeah, I agree. That's why he won't be traded.

 

So waste prime years huh? Because the longer you wait, the asking price goes down.

[OmarComing25]

Again, I'll wait for someone to show me where the precedence is three top 10 prospects in all of baseball. I don't think even Johann Santana commanded that much.

IIRC Santana only had 1 year left on his contract when he was traded, and even then people thought the Mets final offer was underwhelming. The Yankees and Red Sox hypothetical deals were a lot better, the Red Sox reportedly offered two of Lester/Ellsbury/Bucholz + Crisp + Jed Lowrie + another pitcher. That would have been a huge haul, and IMO better than Urias/Pederson/Verdugo, and that was for one expensive year of Santana, not 4 cheap years of Sale.

[Quin]

So waste prime years huh? Because the longer you wait, the asking price goes down.

 

If we can't get full value for his prime years because his value is too high...yes?

[nitetrain8601]

IIRC Santana only had 1 year left on his contract when he was traded, and even then people thought the Mets final offer was underwhelming. The Yankees and Red Sox hypothetical deals were a lot better, the Red Sox reportedly offered two of Lester/Ellsbury/Bucholz + Crisp + Jed Lowrie + another pitcher. That would have been a huge haul, and IMO better than Urias/Pederson/Verdugo, and that was for one expensive year of Santana, not 4 cheap years of Sale.

 

Red Sox flat out told Minny they weren't going to give up both Ellsbury and Lester in the same deal. The Yanks offered Melky, Phil Hughes and a lower level prospect. And at the time, Johan was seen as the sure-fire, no doubt about it, best pitcher in baseball. The Twins wanted two of the three (which might I add, is less than what you guys are demanding from the Dodgers) Ellsbury, Lester Bucholz. Boston countered with Lowrie (not a top 10 prospect in their system at the time), Ellz OR Lester, and Coco Crisp. On top they added a lower level pitcher, possibly Justin Masterson who wasn't a top 10 prospect in their system at the time either.

 

So Red Sox:

Ellsbury or Lester

Lowrie (not a top 10 prospect in their system at the time)

Crisp (MLB player)

possibly Justin Masterson (not a top 10 prospect)

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prosp...007/262814.html

 

 

Yankees:

Phil Hughes (#1 Yankees Prospect)

Melky Cabrera(MLB Player)

third prospect who they refused to to be one of their top ones (Kennedy, Horne or Austin Jackson)

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prosp...007/262804.html

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3138088

 

So despite what you may or may not feel. There is no precedent for asking for the crazy packages you guys are asking for.

 

 

 

[nitetrain8601]

If we can't get full value for his prime years because his value is too high...yes?

 

That's better than building a viable team?

[Balta1701]

You guys are still talking about Puig as a player worth acquiring a week after a domestic violence incident???

[kitekrazy]

But you can. There's no justifying what you guys are asking for. Yes, I want the Dodgers top 5 prospects as well, 3 of which are MLB ready. But that ain't happening.

 

It's a waste when this organization doesn't do well in developing prospects.

 

[kitekrazy]

You guys are still talking about Puig as a player worth acquiring a week after a domestic violence incident???

 

Agreed. Since when does a change of scenery to the White Sox ever work. Oh wait! Coop will fix him.

Edited December 5, 2015 by kitekrazy

[Quin]

Red Sox flat out told Minny they weren't going to give up both Ellsbury and Lester in the same deal. The Yanks offered Melky, Phil Hughes and a lower level prospect. And at the time, Johan was seen as the sure-fire, no doubt about it, best pitcher in baseball. The Twins wanted two of the three (which might I add, is less than what you guys are demanding from the Dodgers) Ellsbury, Lester Bucholz. Boston countered with Lowrie (not a top 10 prospect in their system at the time), Ellz OR Lester, and Coco Crisp. On top they added a lower level pitcher, possibly Justin Masterson who wasn't a top 10 prospect in their system at the time either.

 

So Red Sox:

Ellsbury or Lester

Lowrie (not a top 10 prospect in their system at the time)

Crisp (MLB player)

possibly Justin Masterson (not a top 10 prospect)

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prosp...007/262814.html

 

 

Yankees:

Phil Hughes (#1 Yankees Prospect)

Melky Cabrera(MLB Player)

third prospect who they refused to to be one of their top ones (Kennedy, Horne or Austin Jackson)

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prosp...007/262804.html

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3138088

 

So despite what you may or may not feel. There is no precedent for asking for the crazy packages you guys are asking for.

 

Sale's contract is the big difference. Santana had a year left. Sale has four cost controlled years, two being options.

 

[Balta1701]

Agreed. Since when does a change of scenery to the White Sox ever work.

F*** that, I wouldn't care if we had the best change of scenery record in the league, he's useless and basically valueless right now. Per agreement last season the commish has a right to suspend a guy with no limit for domestic violence incidents. At least let the investigation finish first, at this rate another incident and he could be suspended for a season.

 

And that's on top of the joy of "acquiring guys with domestic violence incidents" in their background.

[BlackSox13]

As a Sox fan, it would really suck being stuck watching Sale pitch his prime years on the South Side. Gawd how depressing that idea is.

[nitetrain8601]

Sale's contract is the big difference. Santana had a year left. Sale has four cost controlled years, two being options.

 

Sale's contract is maybe worth another top 5 prospect. You guys aren't even asking for that. You guys are asking for Seager, Pederson, Urias at minimum. There's no precedent for that. Hell, Atlanta is only asking for Pollock for Miller.