Sox Sign Dioner Navarro

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

I recall him killing the Sox when he was on the Cubs.

He had a 3 homer game against the Sox at Wrigley IIRC.

[SoxAce]

Not bad at all. Tyler Flowers being gone made my night yesterday though so I might be running on fumes.

Edited December 3, 2015 by SoxAce

[Jose Abreu]

I'm hearing Jays fans are upset because he was Estrada's personal catcher, and apparently Estrada was much worse when throwing to others.

[Chicago White Sox]

I'm cool with Navarro over Flowers for next year, but these moves put us in a dangerous spot at catcher for 2017. We should still try to add a prospect at the AA or AAA level that can potentially compete for a starting in the near future.

[Jose Abreu]

Anyway, given that catching is so weak across baseball, Avila/Navarro is a decent tandem. I'm a bit worried that they'll fall of a cliff, given that Navarro has had bad seasons here and there and Avila has just been bad lately, but it's better than Flowers/Soto.

[Dunt]

Just spitballing some numbers really quickly:

 

2016 Steamer Projections

Alex Avila 1.8 WAR

Tyler Flowers 0.4 WAR

Dioner Navarro 1.1 WAR

 

2015 Errors

Alex Avila 0

Tyler Flowers 5

Dioner Navarro 2

 

Passed Balls

Alex Avila 2

Tyler Flowers 15

Dioner Navarro 2

 

SB/CS

Alex Avila 21/11

Tyler Flowers 53/18

Dioner Navarro 14/9

 

DRS

Alex Avila -2

Tyler Flowers -2

Dioner Navarro 2

 

 

Sample size is a little different for Flowers because he was a starter while Avila was injured and Navarro was a backup, but nevertheless, you can see that Flowers isnt really a better defensive catcher than either of the other 2. In fact, Navarro and Flowers are suppose to have the same defensive score in 2016 according to Steamer.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

There were 53 stolen bases against Flowers last season?

 

Good lord...

[Bob Sacamano]

I'm hearing Jays fans are upset because he was Estrada's personal catcher, and apparently Estrada was much worse when throwing to others.

 

I believe he was Buehrle's personal catcher too.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

But but pitching framing?! Lol

 

It'll be nice to have two new fresh faces at catcher.

 

 

Now let's get 3B and maybe an OF or SP if we move Q.

[Jose Abreu]

I guess Toronto fans have reasons to be upset about it.

 

Marco Estrada:

By Catcher (2015)

Russell Martin is the top line, Navarro is the bottom.

G IP ER ERA PA AB R H 2B 3B HR SB CS BB SO SO/W BA OBP SLG OPS TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB ROE BAbip

14 61.1 28 4.11 261 238 31 58 11 3 7 5 2 20 50 2.50 .244 .307 .403 .710 96 1 2 0 1 0 3 .280

20 119.2 35 2.63 464 421 35 76 13 2 17 2 3 35 81 2.31 .181 .247 .342 .589 144 5 3 2 2 2 1 .182

 

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

I hate picking at old scabs, but wasn't AJ supposed to be a bad defensive catcher? That turned out alright.

[Southwest Sider]

Beckham, Flowers, Alexei...next year Danks and LaRoche. Avi supposedly on the block. They are running out of punching bags.

 

Thank goodness. The Sox have needed to trim some of the fat off of this roster for awhile now. These guys just aren't winners, and that's what we're all looking for. And frankly, even though I kind of liked Alexei, he just didn't seem to have the mentality of a winning baseball player.

[clyons]

I recall Navarro being a future HOF'er around the same time Edwin Jackson was, many moons ago.

[Bob Sacamano]

Do we know how much yet? I'll guess $2 million.

[Jose Abreu]

[Dick Allen]

For those who don't think the White Sox are or have been rebuilding, here are the players still with the team who were with the team in 2012:

 

Sale

Quintana

Danks

Jones

[Jose Abreu]

On the defensive side of the ledger, Navarro was one of the league’s worst-rated pitch framers in 2014. But he’s generally rated more as a below-average framer than an awful one, and he returned to that status last year. More broadly, Defensive Runs Saved has pegged Navarro right at league average in terms of overall performance behind the plate.

[RockRaines]

I just dont believe in this pitch framing stat being a good evaluation tool for catchers. Top tier SP's are going to skew that stat in favor of whoever their catcher is.

[Southwest Sider]

The more I think about it, the more I like this series of moves. Avila can hit righties, Navarro can hit lefites. However, knowing that the majority of pitchers are right-handed, having a switch-hitting Navarro makes sense so that Avila doesn't play most of the games. This move makes sense, and I hope it works out for the Sox. Another plus is that this is now out of the way before the winter meetings start, as I am certain there will some large fish to fry there.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

I just dont believe in this pitch framing stat being a good evaluation tool for catchers. Top tier SP's are going to skew that stat in favor of whoever their catcher is.

 

I agree it's just a stat to make up for deficiencies. There is just no way someone can be mad at these two deals. They're trying to get better and platooning. Let's hope Robin does fine with it.

[OmarComing25]

Wow on /r/baseball a lot of posters hate this move, amazing how valuable Flowers suddenly is now that he's gone for some people.

[shysocks]

Lots of good points being made in here:

Looking at his stats, it looks like he's been more of a platoon/back-up guy except for a couple years. One would expect the Sox to truly use a platoon approach with him and Avila.

@Buster_ESPN: Last year, Dioner Navarro posted an .894 OPS vs. lefties, so White Sox can work a platoon of he and the left-handed hitting Alex Avila.

Hopefully, Navarro and Avila can make it through the year healthy and be what we are hoping them to be. At least on paper, it seems a good idea, but they have both had seasons they didn't hit .200. But even worst case scenario, you aren't behind the rest of the league too much if your catching is an offensive black hole.

Looking forward to seeing how a strict platoon will go. It seems weird that the very first thing the Sox did was jettison their decent catching tandem for a different decent catching tandem, but ultimately it's whatever.

 

I would say a couple things regarding catcher defense. One, a catcher's caught stealing numbers have just as much to do with who's on the mound as with the catcher himself. Only the best throwers can overcome slow deliveries to limit the running game. I rarely look at catcher CS numbers because I feel like there's too much else going on.

 

Two, to the guys saying "lol pitch framing who cares," read up on it, if only because there's a lot of entertaining stuff. It is absolutely a skill and some guys are better at it than others. I'm not sure it's worth >1 WAR because the umpire and the pitcher also play a role, but read some articles about it, particularly with .gifs. Look up Jeff Sullivan's worst called strikes and balls pieces on Fangraphs. The way a catcher fields pitches absolutely affects what an umpire sees.

 

The MLB-wide OPS is 92 points lower after an 0-1 count than a 1-0 count. The difference between 2-1 and 1-2 is 350 points. Catchers can get extra strikes. And grabbing extra strikes where you can is important.

[shysocks]

I agree it's just a stat to make up for deficiencies.

A bunch of people got together and made up a stat so Tyler Flowers would look better.

[OmarComing25]

Lots of good points being made in here:

 

 

 

Looking forward to seeing how a strict platoon will go. It seems weird that the very first thing the Sox did was jettison their decent catching tandem for a different decent catching tandem, but ultimately it's whatever.

 

I would say a couple things regarding catcher defense. One, a catcher's caught stealing numbers have just as much to do with who's on the mound as with the catcher himself. Only the best throwers can overcome slow deliveries to limit the running game. I rarely look at catcher CS numbers because I feel like there's too much else going on.

 

Two, to the guys saying "lol pitch framing who cares," read up on it, if only because there's a lot of entertaining stuff. It is absolutely a skill and some guys are better at it than others. I'm not sure it's worth >1 WAR because the umpire and the pitcher also play a role, but read some articles about it, particularly with .gifs. Look up Jeff Sullivan's worst called strikes and balls pieces on Fangraphs. The way a catcher fields pitches absolutely affects what an umpire sees.

 

The MLB-wide OPS is 92 points lower after an 0-1 count than a 1-0 count. The difference between 2-1 and 1-2 is 350 points. Catchers can get extra strikes. And grabbing extra strikes where you can is important.

Agree about pitch-framing, but looking back in past years Flowers didn't rate too highly there (2014 he was below average, 2013 only slightly above average), is this something that we can be sure is a permanent change?

[flavum]

The roster July 10, 2013:

 

Lineup- De Aza, Ramirez, Rios, Dunn, Keppinger, Gillaspie, Viciedo, Beckham, Flowers

Bench- Morel, Tekotte, Phegley, Wells

Rotation-Sale, Axelrod, Quintana, Santiago, Danks

Bullpen- Lindstrom, Thornton, Troncoso, Purcey, Castro, Jones, Reed

DL- Konerko, Floyd, Peavy, Crain

 

I'll give the Sox credit for turning over the roster in a short amount of time, but until they actually convert that to playoff appearances (or A playoff appearance), it really doesn't matter.

Edited December 3, 2015 by flavum