CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (shysocks @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 09:55 AM) You edited so I'll add: I'm not that interested in teaching you anything, turns out. Than why are you bothering to defend pitch framing ? I'm not the only onnly one who thinks its useles . You wouldn't just be teaching me but un named others . I read the explanation given for the pitch f/x leaderboard but even he says "There's still plenty of work left to do on examining the strike zone and how it is actually called by umpires in baseball. Clearly, there is no one single strike zone. Its size and placement vary based on circumstances, just which are not yet fully determined." And he is still a guy interpreting data weather its pitch f/x or a camera makes no difference. He is following the path of the ball and making a judgment if that pitch should be called a strike or ball of which many variables effect that. He tries to take variables into account but I'm not so sure it's even possible . He also used this example: " using an actual example of Miguel Olivo this past season. Olivo in 2012 caught 4,929 pitches that a hitter didn't swing at; 1,693 (nZ) of them were deemed within the strike zone and should (simplistically) have resulted in 1,693 strike calls. Instead, 254 (zBall) of them were called a ball giving a zBall% of 15%." The key word there is "deemed". He is making a judgment ( not a fact) of balls within the strike zone just as an umpire does. He is making a judgment (his) on a judgment (the umps) is that not correct ? Only we are assuming his judgment is more accurate because he uses pitch f/x ? So I am supposed to trust his judgment of because mathematically he has eliminated as many variables as he can. Since I can't or won't be taking statistic classes or whatever math applies here I have to break it down in more simplistic terms which unfortunately many of us here have to do. Just because you trust the new data doesn't mean a damn thing to me. I have to assume too much here. Trust the data, trust the guy interpreting the data, trust pitch f/x , trust his math, trust his baseball knowledge, trust you. Sorry no can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 fragile Well they got rid of two mediocre catchers and replaced them w two fragile catchers. Hopefully the overall position output improves. But what happens if Sales doesn't like either one??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (Dunt @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 01:46 PM) I personally think this is a perfectly suitable platoon at catcher. I will not miss Flowers one bit. I can honestly say I'd rather have Flowers/Soto than this new platoon. How could anybody think Navarro/Avila is an upgrade? Ugh. At least nobody's going to criticize these two guys as they platoon. Flowers was a true whipping boy here. Hate to be so negative but Sox have asked for it the last 3 years. Lots of negative news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 04:45 PM) I didn't even realize he as a FA. Nice pick up. Catcher stabilized for next season. Have you looked at his stats? He played in 54 games and hit as badly as Avila did. They both did draw some walks though, improving the catcher spot in ability to take a walk I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 (edited) A couple of veterans who have had success and played for good teams on one year cheap contracts. Unless you have Posey or Martin or McCann or maybe Cervelli, it's a pretty good idea to maximize an industry wide weak position, and not have the money spent hurt you elsewhere. Edited December 3, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 How much are they paying Navarro, damn it!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasttriptotulsa Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 01:51 PM) Have you looked at his stats? He played in 54 games and hit as badly as Avila did. They both did draw some walks though, improving the catcher spot in ability to take a walk I guess. Do righty/lefty splits mean anything to you? Do you even understand what it means to platoon players? Navarro has always raked against lefties (for a catcher) and Avila has always raked against righties (again for a catcher). What more do you want. Or better yet, who do you want? Go take a look at the list of available catchers and come up with a name please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 07:55 PM) A couple of veterans who have had success and played for good teams on one year cheap contracts. Unless you have Posey or Martin or McCann or maybe Cervelli, it's a pretty good idea to maximize an industry wide weak position, and not have the money spent hurt you elsewhere. you make a good point, the baseball reasoning to pull or move players from the catching position, to utilize their offensive skill, will leave a hole somewhere. there are still some who can be good on offense and defense, but according to the advance stats, and those stats will continue to get better, it will continue to show bigger holes in anyone's game. this is the wave of the future, cheap, no hitting catchers whose defense may be questionable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 02:02 PM) Do righty/lefty splits mean anything to you? Do you even understand what it means to platoon players? Navarro has always raked against lefties (for a catcher) and Avila has always raked against righties (again for a catcher). What more do you want. Or better yet, who do you want? Go take a look at the list of available catchers and come up with a name please. That's far too difficult for Greg to wrap his head around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 09:02 PM) Do righty/lefty splits mean anything to you? Do you even understand what it means to platoon players? Navarro has always raked against lefties (for a catcher) and Avila has always raked against righties (again for a catcher). What more do you want. Or better yet, who do you want? Go take a look at the list of available catchers and come up with a name please. I want a reason to buy mlb.com again. My team has replaced Flowers/Soto with Avila/Navarro. To me, a reasonable consumer, that is a very very bad tradeoff. Yuck. Tell me the truth people. Would you rather have Flowers/Soto or Soto/Flowers than these two newcomers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 02:10 PM) I want a reason to buy mlb.com again. My team has replaced Flowers/Soto with Avila/Navarro. To me, a reasonable consumer, that is a very very bad tradeoff. Yuck. Tell me the truth people. Would you rather have Flowers/Soto or Soto/Flowers than these two newcomers? Navarro/Avila is statistically a better platoon than Flowers/Soto... You do know that catching is the weakest position in baseball, right? There are really only a handful of all-star level catchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (LDF @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 09:05 PM) this is the wave of the future, cheap, no hitting catchers whose defense may be questionable That's a pretty interesting sentence. Cheap catchers who can't hit or play defense. Mama, teach your kids to be catchers I guess. Make a ton of money for literally no production? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasttriptotulsa Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 02:10 PM) I want a reason to buy mlb.com again. My team has replaced Flowers/Soto with Avila/Navarro. To me, a reasonable consumer, that is a very very bad tradeoff. Yuck. Tell me the truth people. Would you rather have Flowers/Soto or Soto/Flowers than these two newcomers? Avila/Navarro is a better combo and it's not even close. There is no point in having a combo of Flowers and Soto. They both hit right handed and can't hit RHP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Kudos, I like this platoon. The upside is pretty high IMO. Downside is that Avila is toast but in that scenario you hope Navarro can take over full time. Doesn't seem the ORG valued the pitch framing metric as much as some of our posters here. FWIW I have no idea who is right but it is one data point that at least the Sox perhaps don't consider it that important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 09:14 PM) Avila/Navarro is a better combo and it's not even close. There is no point in having a combo of Flowers and Soto. They both hit right handed and can't hit RHP. We'll see, I guess. I just don't understand why you guys are OK with this move. I'd keep Flowers around and if you had to sign one of Avila/Navarro to replace Soto, fine. This move screams of the kind of move a lousy team makes, to me. Flowers may have stunk, but he didn't deserve to get the non-tender over either of those 2 guys IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 01:51 PM) Have you looked at his stats? He played in 54 games and hit as badly as Avila did. They both did draw some walks though, improving the catcher spot in ability to take a walk I guess. Greg, Navarro had an .894 OPS vs LHP last season. Should be a decent platoon. It's definitely not worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 02:21 PM) Kudos, I like this platoon. The upside is pretty high IMO. Downside is that Avila is toast but in that scenario you hope Navarro can take over full time. Doesn't seem the ORG valued the pitch framing metric as much as some of our posters here. FWIW I have no idea who is right but it is one data point that at least the Sox perhaps don't consider it that important. Hahn values pitch framing. It's one of the main reasons why he's chased Jason Castro, Miguel Montero, and Yasmani Grandal. He decided that pitch framing doesn't make up for being horrible offensively and allowing 15 passed balls however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 09:23 PM) Greg, Navarro had an .894 OPS vs LHP last season. Should be a decent platoon. It's definitely not worse. I'll stop, lest I become a pest in this thread. Just remember, Greg was against the move. File it under "he didn't like it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 02:27 PM) I'll stop, lest I become a pest in this thread. Just remember, Greg was against the move. File it under "he didn't like it." It's Flowers and Soto. Just keep that in mind. They were fine as a tandem, but still extremely mediocre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 02:27 PM) I'll stop, lest I become a pest in this thread. Just remember, Greg was against the move. File it under "he didn't like it." There's no reason to not like it better than the alternative though. You're not making any sense right now. There's not some magical catcher tree to pluck guys from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 02:27 PM) I'll stop, lest I become a pest in this thread. Just remember, Greg was against the move. File it under "he didn't like it." Thats where I file every move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 08:31 PM) Thats where I file every move. Someday I'm gonna like one, I promise. But you are right, man I've hated the acquisitions since we became a perennial sub .500 team. (You post was funny, so I had to respond; OK I'm not gonna comment on this move in this thread anymore; I made my point clear; I dislike). On to the next one, Mr. Hahn, Impress me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHurt3515 Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I think we have upgraded our offense at the catcher position from what we had and I am excited about it. Maybe I am just excited for a new face at catcher and I don't have to watch Flowers miss a 92 MPH Fastball right down the middle on a 2-0 count ever again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (BigHurt3515 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 04:47 PM) I think we have upgraded our offense at the catcher position from what we had and I am excited about it. Maybe I am just excited for a new face at catcher and I don't have to watch Flowers miss a 92 MPH Fastball right down the middle on a 2-0 count ever again No Beckham to do the same either. Oh yea, it's a new era! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 3, 2015 -> 03:23 PM) Greg, Navarro had an .894 OPS vs LHP last season. Should be a decent platoon. It's definitely not worse. But he only caught 37 games last year. Avila caught 43. The concern is they are both coming off limited seasons behind the plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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