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Chisoxfn

Whats the beef...here's mine

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So I'm not going to make some big winded post as what I am posting is purely based upon conjecture (along with some of Hahn's quotes) but I've heard Hahn talk a lot about working to fix our offense, but like last off-season, I've heard so little about our defense? It just makes me go hmmm, have we learned nothing from our struggles the past few years. I realize that good defensive, OBP guys don't grow on trees (and to be frank, OBP and good defense are the Sox two biggest achiles heels) but for us to consistently talk about offense just strikes the wrong chord to me.

 

I have watched a team that has been fundamentally bad for the past few years and last off-season we tried to fix the offense while ignoring defense. Sox deserve the benefit of the doubt cause they have yet to make a move this off-season that made the defense worse, but they also haven't upgraded the defense either (which is fine...only position they addressed was catcher and net net I'd say that move was defensively neutral to slightly positive while offensively having the upside to be positive).

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 01:28 PM)
So I'm not going to make some big winded post as what I am posting is purely based upon conjecture (along with some of Hahn's quotes) but I've heard Hahn talk a lot about working to fix our offense, but like last off-season, I've heard so little about our defense? It just makes me go hmmm, have we learned nothing from our struggles the past few years. I realize that good defensive, OBP guys don't grow on trees (and to be frank, OBP and good defense are the Sox two biggest achiles heels) but for us to consistently talk about offense just strikes the wrong chord to me.

 

I have watched a team that has been fundamentally bad for the past few years and last off-season we tried to fix the offense while ignoring defense. Sox deserve the benefit of the doubt cause they have yet to make a move this off-season that made the defense worse, but they also haven't upgraded the defense either (which is fine...only position they addressed was catcher and net net I'd say that move was defensively neutral to slightly positive while offensively having the upside to be positive).

You were banging the defense drum last offseason almost to excess but I'm in full agreement with you now. I haven't gotten through the Upton / Asdrubal threads yet, but those are guys I'd prefer the Sox stay away from.

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This is the disconnect making me crazy with this team.

- The sox have a great pitching staff

- They have a bullpen full of groundball pitchers

- They have a bunch of bad defensive players that require great offense to make them valuable. They have been terrible offensively.

 

I am tired of writing that we need to make our strengths an elite strength, but I do feel we are far more likely to build a contender by making our great staff an elite staff with great defense. I believe that creating an elite staff, adding a single bat will make a huge difference.

 

Instead, we are continuing to undermine the effectiveness of our pitching staff by adding (HOPEFULLY) above average bats with hopefully average defense. To me, it just seems like even if we are capable of getting an above average offense in one offseason, it will come at the cost of dropping our staff out of top 10.

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QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 07:37 PM)
This is the disconnect making me crazy with this team.

- The sox have a great pitching staff

- They have a bullpen full of groundball pitchers

- They have a bunch of bad defensive players that require great offense to make them valuable. They have been terrible offensively.

 

I am tired of writing that we need to make our strengths an elite strength, but I do feel we are far more likely to build a contender by making our great staff an elite staff with great defense. I believe that creating an elite staff, adding a single bat will make a huge difference.

 

Instead, we are continuing to undermine the effectiveness of our pitching staff by adding (HOPEFULLY) above average bats with hopefully average defense. To me, it just seems like even if we are capable of getting an above average offense in one offseason, it will come at the cost of dropping our staff out of top 10.

 

you make a valid point, and the counter is this, while other teams does get players to fit a certain style of play the team does, in other words they know the direction the team is going, the sox will always and i mean always go to where they can get a player for as little as they can... meaning salary. this been going on since the late 90's .... and the main players in this crap shoot is still at the helm of the team.

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 01:28 PM)
So I'm not going to make some big winded post as what I am posting is purely based upon conjecture (along with some of Hahn's quotes) but I've heard Hahn talk a lot about working to fix our offense, but like last off-season, I've heard so little about our defense? It just makes me go hmmm, have we learned nothing from our struggles the past few years. I realize that good defensive, OBP guys don't grow on trees (and to be frank, OBP and good defense are the Sox two biggest achiles heels) but for us to consistently talk about offense just strikes the wrong chord to me.

 

I have watched a team that has been fundamentally bad for the past few years and last off-season we tried to fix the offense while ignoring defense. Sox deserve the benefit of the doubt cause they have yet to make a move this off-season that made the defense worse, but they also haven't upgraded the defense either (which is fine...only position they addressed was catcher and net net I'd say that move was defensively neutral to slightly positive while offensively having the upside to be positive).

 

I'm not exactly sure if they have a true direction other than patching together a team each year that may compete.

 

They have the makings of a pretty good pitching staff. It isn't perfect, but with no moves, I feel comfortable heading into the season. I think the pitching will likely be the strength of the team as well. Saying that, it's hard to argue that the team shouldn't just focus on making the defense a strength or, at least, upgrade it from last year, and there are some simple ways - Tryce Thompson getting regular playing time in CF, and a full year of Carlos Sanchez at 2B. Getting Adam La Roche more playing time at 1B would improve that position. They may be able to upgrade defensively at SS / C as well (perhaps marginally). They may not be a great defense, but there are definitive ways to improve the defense to where it can better complement the pitching staff and enhance that strength.

 

If they do end up addressing major league needs (like the offense) by trading minor league talent, that's another sign that they are primarily interested in patching together a team for 2016 that can compete as opposed to taking a step back and realizing that the minor league system needs to be a place where they can complement their team.

 

When you have a patchwork plan, every off-season, sometimes it may work, but long-term, it feels as if the team is never going to set itself up for an extended growth period.

 

In my opinion, I'd rather see them focus on the minor league system - no free agents that will cost them a pick, for example, is a rule that is important to me. If they do want to shake up the major league roster, it needs to be for younger talent (young talent in the majors or on their way). It may be exciting if they trade for a fun offensive player this week, but what will be the long-term cost? Defense should be a huge priority when evaluating any free agent. That simply has to get better, and making it better will, in theory, mean the offense doesn't have to be perfect if the pitching staff is successful most days.

 

 

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I think they are desperately trying to get a team on the field that can draw fans and while we have a bunch of good, young, defensive minded players, none of them can hit. They could run Saladino & Sanchez up the middle and get incredible defense with a total of like a .220/.275/.350 line from them both and the fans would call for their heads or they could run out some one like an Asdrubal Cabrera at 2nd with Sally at SS and at least get some sort of offense.

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My counter is you can't win games 0-0. You need to score some runs. Right now the Sox have no protection for Abreu. They are putrid offensively. In addition, the Sox have guys on their team who project to be very good defensively, but they also need to fill in the gaps of offense. Typically money goes to the offensive player, and little money goes to the defensive player.

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 01:28 PM)
So I'm not going to make some big winded post as what I am posting is purely based upon conjecture (along with some of Hahn's quotes) but I've heard Hahn talk a lot about working to fix our offense, but like last off-season, I've heard so little about our defense? It just makes me go hmmm, have we learned nothing from our struggles the past few years. I realize that good defensive, OBP guys don't grow on trees (and to be frank, OBP and good defense are the Sox two biggest achiles heels) but for us to consistently talk about offense just strikes the wrong chord to me.

 

I have watched a team that has been fundamentally bad for the past few years and last off-season we tried to fix the offense while ignoring defense. Sox deserve the benefit of the doubt cause they have yet to make a move this off-season that made the defense worse, but they also haven't upgraded the defense either (which is fine...only position they addressed was catcher and net net I'd say that move was defensively neutral to slightly positive while offensively having the upside to be positive).

 

I really couldn't agree more. I think this is a case of having a Frankestein off-season plan because we have too many cooks in the kitchen. Nothing that seems like a decisive step into creating an identity for this team.

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14th in MLB in team ERA

28th in runs scored

 

It's not that hard of a concept to figure out why the GM would be talking about offense and not defense to the general public. Now, does the defense need to be improved? Absolutely, there's no denying we stink at several key areas. But how about we get capable hitters that don't suck in the field 1st? To me defense and baserunning are things good teams improve on to get over the hump and deeper into the playoffs once a pitching staff and capable lineup have been established. We still need to figure out the later part or defense is irrelevant. If you're an AL team and you can't even score 4 runs a game it won't matter if you have the greatest defense ever.

 

And besides, not paying Alexei $10M was a 1st key step in improving the D. It's obvious and known that we are trying to upgrade both 3b and RF, so if we can get guys who are at least average defenders at both of those spots + an improvement over Alexei at SS (saladino is already a huge upgrade) we all of a sudden don't have a horrible defense already.

Edited by TheFutureIsNear

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 01:50 PM)
My counter is you can't win games 0-0. You need to score some runs. Right now the Sox have no protection for Abreu. They are putrid offensively. In addition, the Sox have guys on their team who project to be very good defensively, but they also need to fill in the gaps of offense. Typically money goes to the offensive player, and little money goes to the defensive player.

 

You can't lose games 0-0 either. If you backup the strength of your team (SP) with a top flight defense, you can win a lot of 2-1; 1-0 type of games. The problem for the Sox is that they are losing those games 3-2 and 2-1 because they can't make the defensive plays to support the strong starting pitching.

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 02:28 PM)
So I'm not going to make some big winded post as what I am posting is purely based upon conjecture (along with some of Hahn's quotes) but I've heard Hahn talk a lot about working to fix our offense, but like last off-season, I've heard so little about our defense? It just makes me go hmmm, have we learned nothing from our struggles the past few years. I realize that good defensive, OBP guys don't grow on trees (and to be frank, OBP and good defense are the Sox two biggest achiles heels) but for us to consistently talk about offense just strikes the wrong chord to me.

 

I have watched a team that has been fundamentally bad for the past few years and last off-season we tried to fix the offense while ignoring defense. Sox deserve the benefit of the doubt cause they have yet to make a move this off-season that made the defense worse, but they also haven't upgraded the defense either (which is fine...only position they addressed was catcher and net net I'd say that move was defensively neutral to slightly positive while offensively having the upside to be positive).

I agree 100%. I'm a little old school in my thinking in that I believe good pitching good defense an the 3 run home run wins. Problem is we have only 1 Home run hitter an rarely have anyone on base. Saying that I still believe we need to improve our defense at almost every position.

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Props to chisoxfn for slightly changing a popular phrase

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QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 09:00 PM)
14th in MLB in team ERA

28th in runs scored

 

It's not that hard of a concept to figure out why the GM would be talking about offense and not defense to the general public. Now, does the defense need to be improved? Absolutely, there's no denying we stink at several key areas. But how about we get capable hitters that don't suck in the field 1st? To me defense and baserunning are things good teams improve on to get over the hump and deeper into the playoffs once a pitching staff and capable lineup have been established. We still need to figure out the later part or defense is irrelevant. If you're an AL team and you can't even score 4 runs a game it won't matter if you have the greatest defense ever.

 

And besides, not paying Alexei $10M was a 1st key step in improving the D. It's obvious and known that we are trying to upgrade both 3b and RF, so if we can get guys who are at least average defenders at both of those spots + an improvement over Alexei at SS (saladino is already a huge upgrade) we all of a sudden don't have a horrible defense already.

 

in the fa's there is really not much unless the sox pays for it, they would have to go the trade rt and that too may cost a lot, not in money but in prospects.

 

would the fan like that, let alone the owners.

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It's always jury-rigged with these guys. Can't do anything properly, ie develop their own players. Gotta buy somebody else's castoffs and act surprised when things don't work right. The roster is like a '73 Pinto with a $1000 set of tires. BUT CHECK OUT THE MICHELIN TIRES!! FUZZY DICE!!

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QUOTE (Knackattack @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 01:50 PM)
I think they are desperately trying to get a team on the field that can draw fans and while we have a bunch of good, young, defensive minded players, none of them can hit. They could run Saladino & Sanchez up the middle and get incredible defense with a total of like a .220/.275/.350 line from them both and the fans would call for their heads or they could run out some one like an Asdrubal Cabrera at 2nd with Sally at SS and at least get some sort of offense.

 

I was just having this discussion with some friends. Some of them want the Sox to go to an all defense team to support the pitching staff. They essentially did this late in the year and have this if the play Sanchez/Saladino/Thompson. I think that team would be horrendous. The Sox play in a small ballpark and have no power and no OBP, as constructed.

 

The defense has to be upgraded, but it can't come at the expense of offense. That's the problem with trying to field a competitor this offseason...there's just way too many areas to upgrade.

 

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QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 08:14 PM)
It's always jury-rigged with these guys. Can't do anything properly, ie develop their own players. Gotta buy somebody else's castoffs and act surprised when things don't work right. The roster is like a '73 Pinto with a $1000 set of tires. BUT CHECK OUT THE MICHELIN TIRES!! FUZZY DICE!!

lack of direction. the react in stead of having a game plan.

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QUOTE (shakes @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 02:16 PM)
I was just having this discussion with some friends. Some of them want the Sox to go to an all defense team to support the pitching staff. They essentially did this late in the year and have this if the play Sanchez/Saladino/Thompson. I think that team would be horrendous. The Sox play in a small ballpark and have no power and no OBP, as constructed.

 

The defense has to be upgraded, but it can't come at the expense of offense. That's the problem with trying to field a competitor this offseason...there's just way too many areas to upgrade.

I think defensively, what they do is going to be dictated by what kind of bat they can bring in. If they bring in Upton, that could mean Avi gone, LaRoche gone, Melky LF/DH, Trayce RF. we just don't know. As you pointed out, They did address the defense about as much as they could during the season, so I really don't think they now find it unimportant.

 

They don't need spectacular defenders everywhere. Just make the plays you are supposed to make, and with the Sox pitchers, that should be fine. You can't win when you don't score, hence even when Saladino or Beckham was at 3B, Alexei awoke from hibernation at SS, Sanchez took over for Micah at 2B, and Trayce was in the outfield, they were a pretty good defensive team but still didn't win more games.

 

I will say one of the most fun White Sox teams ever was the 1977 Southside Hitmen, and they were about as awful of fielding team as could be. But they mashed, coming off a year where they couldn't hit at all.

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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 02:01 PM)
You can't lose games 0-0 either. If you backup the strength of your team (SP) with a top flight defense, you can win a lot of 2-1; 1-0 type of games. The problem for the Sox is that they are losing those games 3-2 and 2-1 because they can't make the defensive plays to support the strong starting pitching.

If your team is giving up only 1-2 runs and still losing, especially at the Cell, maybe defense isn't your biggest problem. Maybe its your last or close to last place offense.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 03:03 PM)
I think defensively, what they do is going to be dictated by what kind of bat they can bring in. If they bring in Upton, that could mean Avi gone, LaRoche gone, Melky LF/DH, Trayce RF. we just don't know. As you pointed out, They did address the defense about as much as they could during the season, so I really don't think they now find it unimportant.

 

They don't need spectacular defenders everywhere. Just make the plays you are supposed to make, and with the Sox pitchers, that should be fine. You can't win when you don't score, hence even when Saladino or Beckham was at 3B, Alexei awoke from hibernation at SS, Sanchez took over for Micah at 2B, and Trayce was in the outfield, they were a pretty good defensive team but still didn't win more games.

 

I will say one of the most fun White Sox teams ever was the 1977 Southside Hitmen, and they were about as awful of fielding team as could be. But they mashed, coming off a year where they couldn't hit at all.

 

This is a good point.

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 03:08 PM)
If your team is giving up only 1-2 runs and still losing, especially at the Cell, maybe defense isn't your biggest problem. Maybe its your last or close to last place offense.

 

Or maybe we are out of the steroid era and need to get back to playing solid fundamental baseball. The problem is that if you keep trading off defense for offense, the amount of runs you need to score continues to climb so while you may score more runs than you did the season before, its not going to get you any closer to contending.

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Seems like a quick, simple solution is to upgrade in RF. Avi brings nothing to the table offensively or defensively

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 03:03 PM)
I think defensively, what they do is going to be dictated by what kind of bat they can bring in. If they bring in Upton, that could mean Avi gone, LaRoche gone, Melky LF/DH, Trayce RF. we just don't know. As you pointed out, They did address the defense about as much as they could during the season, so I really don't think they now find it unimportant.

 

They don't need spectacular defenders everywhere. Just make the plays you are supposed to make, and with the Sox pitchers, that should be fine. You can't win when you don't score, hence even when Saladino or Beckham was at 3B, Alexei awoke from hibernation at SS, Sanchez took over for Micah at 2B, and Trayce was in the outfield, they were a pretty good defensive team but still didn't win more games.

 

I will say one of the most fun White Sox teams ever was the 1977 Southside Hitmen, and they were about as awful of fielding team as could be. But they mashed, coming off a year where they couldn't hit at all.

 

I guess the balance is bringing in the Upton, Lawrie, Asdrubal types. They actually upgrade the position offensively and are average to decent defensively. I just don't see two or three of those moves being enough to make this a playoff team.

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QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 03:42 PM)
Seems like a quick, simple solution is to upgrade in RF. Avi brings nothing to the table offensively or defensively

Hear hear! It's why I'm softening re: a potential (but still probably unlikely) Upton signing.

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QUOTE (shysocks @ Dec 7, 2015 -> 02:00 PM)
Hear hear! It's why I'm softening re: a potential (but still probably unlikely) Upton signing.

Upton clearly fills a need and should be good for at least a few more years. As long as Sox can deal with the payroll I don't have an issue with it.

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