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The Bulls biggest problem: John Paxson and Gar Forman

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The purpose of my long winded post was to be as objective as I can be. With that stated, I personally feel Paxsons time is expired as has been since 08. I do think he's good at changing a culture and taking a team from nothing. But then he falls in love too much with pieces and let's them expire.

 

I feel there is a double standard when it comes to Paxson versus all other Chicago sports teams. The whole, well we don't have a LeBron argument is tired and a bunch of BS. Golden State didn't stop trying to build when LeBron was owning them in 2007. But we don't have a Stephen Curry! Neither did San Antonio.

 

Yes you need great players to win. The Bulls simply don't do enough to acquire those type of players. They're very reactionary. Very slow at the wheel. Oh, he's available?? Let's try to go after him while another team has already had the jump. Bulls had a chance at prime Melo and declined. They had a shot at prime Kobe and failed. They lost out on their first four options in the 2010 fa class. Yes, Paxson was dealt a bad hand when Rose tore his acl. But when that happened, shouldn't Paxson tried to increase the talent exponentially to make sure he didn't have to carry the team? When Caron Butler, Jamal Crawford wanted to sign after Roses MVP season, and you trot out Richard Hamilton instead, you deserve blame. When you ignore the backup PG spot until the season is about to start every year, you deserve blame. After Rose tore his meniscus, you should've started to look for alternatives.

 

You don't deal Korver for a bag of air. You don't hold onto Deng until he falls apart. You don't keep Ben Gordon until he just leaves. You don't hang onto Asik when you have Noah and you need a wing player like Courtney Lee. You call OKC and ask if he's available when you know OKC can't pay him and Ibaka. You don't hang into Taj Gibson when he can be replaced and a lesser rate.

 

Lastly, when you have 13 years to win and you haven't even sniffed a Finals appearance, you get fired in every sport or on any other team. When you're core is the same as it was 5 years ago when it wasn't good enough and its on the wrong side of the hill, you don't keep your job.

 

Lastly, when you bet on the exact same roster and fire your 2nd handpicked coach to hire someone else who is supposed to improve the offense, and he actually makes it worse, you don't get to keep your job. That's failure.

Edited by nitetrain8601

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It's interesting how people can see the "Kobe had the right to veto any trade and wouldn't accept any trade where the Bulls gave up enough for the Lakers to let him go" so many times and then continue to type "They had a shot at Kobe and declined".

 

If you want to rip them, I could get that. If you want a convincing case, stop repeating things that are incorrect and have already been pointed out to be incorrect. I still haven't seen a response to the Butler thing, but fine, I'll even ignore that. How you're going to find "alternatives" to an MVP I don't know, but I'll even ignore that. Just stop repeating the Kobe thing until you can tell how it would work given that Kobe would veto the deal if the Bulls gave up the Lakers price.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 09:26 PM)
It's interesting how people can see the "Kobe had the right to veto any trade and wouldn't accept any trade where the Bulls gave up enough for the Lakers to let him go" so many times and then continue to type "They had a shot at Kobe and declined".

 

If you want to rip them, I could get that. If you want a convincing case, stop repeating things that are incorrect and have already been pointed out to be incorrect. I still haven't seen a response to the Butler thing, but fine, I'll even ignore that. How you're going to find "alternatives" to an MVP I don't know, but I'll even ignore that. Just stop repeating the Kobe thing until you can tell how it would work given that Kobe would veto the deal if the Bulls gave up the Lakers price.

 

 

I didn't see the Butler question. Rose has been broken for 4 years. How many more years do they get a pass on that? How many years of excuses does Paxson get that no other front office in any sport gets?

 

I have yet to see you dispute the rest of what I laid out.

 

3 handpicked choices for coaches and all ended on bad terms. Hoiberg isn't off to a good start. Who outside of Butler has Paxson hit on in the past 5 years? Wanna give credit for Butler? Do you take away credit for Teague? How about Snell? What about Tyrus? James Johnson? Mirotic might not even be Hero Turkoglu which he compared to but was hyped up more. Where's the fault for the horrid training staff. People remember the spinal tap with Luol which is horrific, but they tend to forget how they misdiagnosed a break in the leg and basically called Luol out years before?

 

These are basketball decisions that are ignored. Yes, one or two bad decisions shouldn't be held against you. Paxsons made more than just one or two.

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PS, I edited out Kobe to failure for not being able to obtain him. I can take him completely out if you want and talk about their failure to obtain prime Pau from Memphis.

 

Continued failure of obtaining impact players. This isn't an outlier, its a trend.

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 09:42 PM)
Rose has been broken for 4 years. How many more years do they get a pass on that? How many years of excuses does Paxson get that no other front office in any sport gets?

 

When he's off the books?

 

 

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 08:42 PM)
I didn't see the Butler question. Rose has been broken for 4 years. How many more years do they get a pass on that? How many years of excuses does Paxson get that no other front office in any sport gets?

 

I have yet to see you dispute the rest of what I laid out.

 

3 handpicked choices for coaches and all ended on bad terms. Hoiberg isn't off to a good start. Who outside of Butler has Paxson hit on in the past 5 years? Wanna give credit for Butler? Do you take away credit for Teague? How about Snell? What about Tyrus? James Johnson? Mirotic might not even be Hero Turkoglu which he compared to but was hyped up more. Where's the fault for the horrid training staff. People remember the spinal tap with Luol which is horrific, but they tend to forget how they misdiagnosed a break in the leg and basically called Luol out years before?

 

These are basketball decisions that are ignored. Yes, one or two bad decisions shouldn't be held against you. Paxsons made more than just one or two.

So quick to discard Hoiberg when the team he's coaching lacks any Hoiberg type players.

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QUOTE (buhbuhburrrrlz @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 08:46 AM)
When he's off the books?

 

You could've traded him anytime over the past 4/5 years. You telling me Charlotte or the Nets wouldn't have traded for him or still wouldn't? I believe they would.

 

And something tells me after he's off the books, we will be back to the "oh well LeBron is still in the league. Oh Stephen curry is still in the league. The coach is a problem..." excuses again.

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QUOTE (AustinIllini @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 09:06 AM)
So quick to discard Hoiberg when the team he's coaching lacks any Hoiberg type players.

I keep hearing this narrative...

1) Whose responsibility is it that there aren't any "Hoiberg type" players on the roster?

2) Who in the NBA IS a Hoiberg type player?

3) Didn't management tell us this was a championship roster with the coach (Thibs) standing in the way?

Edited by ozzfest

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QUOTE (AustinIllini @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 10:06 AM)
So quick to discard Hoiberg when the team he's coaching lacks any Hoiberg type players.

 

Complete and utter horses***. I'm not blaming hoiberg, but let's go look at the posts on here and realgm. It was stated over and over again - everyone is gonna fit. He's going to free mirotic and McDermott. Noah's passing is gonna be so good in the offense. Rose is gonna be able to have fun with jimmy in this offense. Everyone will love it.

 

There was very few skeptics, and even then, Noah was definitely identified as someone who wouldn't fit. Dunleavy was a guy who might not fit. Snell, Gibson, and kirk were also thought to be guys who wouldn't fit.

 

But let's leave even our opinions on the roster makeup out of it. If Hoiberg didn't have Hoiberg players coming into the season, who's job is it to get Hoiberg players?? Why wasn't that identified last off season? Was it because Paxson was an egotistical maniac who believed the roster he assembled was top of the line? Shouldn't Paxson have identified a coach he thought would fit with this roster as opposed to hiring a yes man with no regard to fit??

 

Lastly, Pau looks like he's gone. What are the Bulls gonna do to get Hoiberg players? Who is out there? Bulls have shown the inability to sign top tier free agents and make trades.

 

Keep in mind, all the contenders have been able to play FA OE the trade market great.

 

Spurs signed LaMarcus & traded George Hill for Kawhi Leonard (which was seen as a wtf move at the time)

 

Cleveland traded for Love, then Mozgov, Jr Smith, & Shumpert

 

GSW traded away Monta for Bogut. Were able to sign Iguodala (big time deal) at the time.

 

The most frustrating part perhaps is that the Bulls have failed to do deals because of cap flexibility, but have yet to use that flexibility successfully.

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 08:23 PM)
The purpose of my long winded post was to be as objective as I can be. With that stated, I personally feel Paxsons time is expired as has been since 08. I do think he's good at changing a culture and taking a team from nothing. But then he falls in love too much with pieces and let's them expire.

 

I feel there is a double standard when it comes to Paxson versus all other Chicago sports teams. The whole, well we don't have a LeBron argument is tired and a bunch of BS. Golden State didn't stop trying to build when LeBron was owning them in 2007. But we don't have a Stephen Curry! Neither did San Antonio.

 

Yes you need great players to win. The Bulls simply don't do enough to acquire those type of players. They're very reactionary. Very slow at the wheel. Oh, he's available?? Let's try to go after him while another team has already had the jump. Bulls had a chance at prime Melo and declined. They had a shot at prime Kobe and failed. They lost out on their first four options in the 2010 fa class. Yes, Paxson was dealt a bad hand when Rose tore his acl. But when that happened, shouldn't Paxson tried to increase the talent exponentially to make sure he didn't have to carry the team? When Caron Butler, Jamal Crawford wanted to sign after Roses MVP season, and you trot out Richard Hamilton instead, you deserve blame. When you ignore the backup PG spot until the season is about to start every year, you deserve blame. After Rose tore his meniscus, you should've started to look for alternatives.

 

You don't deal Korver for a bag of air. You don't hold onto Deng until he falls apart. You don't keep Ben Gordon until he just leaves. You don't hang onto Asik when you have Noah and you need a wing player like Courtney Lee. You call OKC and ask if he's available when you know OKC can't pay him and Ibaka. You don't hang into Taj Gibson when he can be replaced and a lesser rate.

 

Lastly, when you have 13 years to win and you haven't even sniffed a Finals appearance, you get fired in every sport or on any other team. When you're core is the same as it was 5 years ago when it wasn't good enough and its on the wrong side of the hill, you don't keep your job.

 

Lastly, when you bet on the exact same roster and fire your 2nd handpicked coach to hire someone else who is supposed to improve the offense, and he actually makes it worse, you don't get to keep your job. That's failure.

 

There's nothing you can do! They offered max contracts to all of the available top FA's out there. Wade, Lebron, Melo, etc. If they don't come here, they don't come here. It's not for a lack of trying or GarPax being reactionary. They set up those FA pushes seasons before so that they could at least be in the conversation. They made roster moves so that they could do the exact thing you're complaining about. You're faulting them for not convincing guys to give up tens of millions or to play with their buddies in a set-up championship roster in Miami. GMAFB.

 

As to the second bolded, you clearly don't understand the NBA. That's how the NBA works. Other leagues don't work like that. There isn't much parity in basketball. Either you get lucky and draft hall of fame players and you compete annually or you don't. Rarely do teams win through free agency. Let's look at the progression here:

 

They draft Rose in 2008. They make the Salmons/Miller moves and make the playoffs. Rose wins Rookie of the Year. They have the epic series against Boston but lose. Rose seems like an all star caliber player. In 2009 that's what happens. They make the playoffs again, lose to Lebron.

 

2010 season. Rose becomes MVP. They're the best team in the regular season. They lose to the Heat in 5 in a closer series than the number dictates. (also should be pointed out that because Lebron & Co went to Miami, there were slim pickings in terms of FA. They got stuck with Boozer. They should have gone after Lee instead, but that's in hindsight.)

 

2011, off the MVP season, Rose signs his new max deal. Bulls look even better than 2010. Luol Deng goes from decent starter to All-Star. First game of the playoffs Rose tears the ACL. Gone for a season. Bulls lose.

 

2012 - no Rose. Bulls still win a playoff series. You can't give up on Rose at this point. One knee injury. It happens. Gotta keep him in the plans for the future.

 

2013 - Tears his MCL early in the season. Again, no Rose. Noah ends up 4th in MVP voting. At this point you could potentially start planning for a replacement, but you still owe him tons of money. And now you have a seemingly all-nba center, along with an emerging Butler BTW, the job finding replacement PG's on the scrap heap was amazing. You ignore that.

 

2014 - Again, Bulls back to being pretty good. Hoping that the return of Rose, return of Noah, Pau Gasol and Butler are enough to win. It's not. They should have won that series last year, but didn't. Now is arguably the only time where it was reasonable to start thinking about a post-Rose Bulls roster, and that's pretty much what they do. They get rid of Thibs for Hoiberg because their toilet bowl offense was atrocious and cost them the series.

 

2015 - Still near the top of the East. Still stuck paying Rose 25 million or whatever for his limited production. Have dealt with injuries to Noah, McDermott, Rose and others. Still winning every game against the top competition. The lone exception is GSW on the road.

 

To me there are a FEW areas where GarPax failed. VDN wasn't a good hire. It didn't kill them since they weren't winning a title with Rose as a rookie anyway. And they were smart enough to switch gears pretty quickly. The Boozer signing wasn't great. They were forced into it given the Lebron debacle, but I still would have preferred Lee and they had a shot to get him.

 

The biggest one to me was not tanking the 2012 season. Talk about a Spurs-like potential future. You have Rose (Robinson) and a shot at Anthony Davis (Duncan). That would have been epic. But really, could the Bulls have done that? They had Noah already. They may have gone SG since that was the big complaint at the time (so maybe Beal or Dion Waters). But is that better than what they eventually got in Butler? No.

 

Big picture, I just don't see what more they could have done. They got stuck with a broken Rose. That's it. If he's the MVP Rose for his career, they probably get past Lebron at least once and get to the Finals. But, he's not, and they were stuck and still probably are because no one would want to take him with that salary.

 

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 09:27 AM)
Complete and utter horses***. I'm not blaming hoiberg, but let's go look at the posts on here and realgm. It was stated over and over again - everyone is gonna fit. He's going to free mirotic and McDermott. Noah's passing is gonna be so good in the offense. Rose is gonna be able to have fun with jimmy in this offense. Everyone will love it.

 

There was very few skeptics, and even then, Noah was definitely identified as someone who wouldn't fit. Dunleavy was a guy who might not fit. Snell, Gibson, and kirk were also thought to be guys who wouldn't fit.

 

But let's leave even our opinions on the roster makeup out of it. If Hoiberg didn't have Hoiberg players coming into the season, who's job is it to get Hoiberg players?? Why wasn't that identified last off season? Was it because Paxson was an egotistical maniac who believed the roster he assembled was top of the line? Shouldn't Paxson have identified a coach he thought would fit with this roster as opposed to hiring a yes man with no regard to fit??

 

Lastly, Pau looks like he's gone. What are the Bulls gonna do to get Hoiberg players? Who is out there? Bulls have shown the inability to sign top tier free agents and make trades.

 

Keep in mind, all the contenders have been able to play FA OE the trade market great.

Spurs signed LaMarcus & traded George Hill for Kawhi Leonard (which was seen as a wtf move at the time)

 

Cleveland traded for Love, then Mozgov, Jr Smith, & Shumpert

 

GSW traded away Monta for Bogut. Were able to sign Iguodala (big time deal) at the time.

 

The most frustrating part perhaps is that the Bulls have failed to do deals because of cap flexibility, but have yet to use that flexibility successfully.

 

Because they know it'd be a waste of assets. Cleveland already had Lebron and Irving, Spurs already had Kwahi, along with the Aging Three, GSW already had Curry, Thompson and drafted Green.

 

 

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 09:54 AM)
There's nothing you can do! They offered max contracts to all of the available top FA's out there. Wade, Lebron, Melo, etc. If they don't come here, they don't come here. It's not for a lack of trying or GarPax being reactionary. They set up those FA pushes seasons before so that they could at least be in the conversation. They made roster moves so that they could do the exact thing you're complaining about. You're faulting them for not convincing guys to give up tens of millions or to play with their buddies in a set-up championship roster in Miami. GMAFB.

 

As to the second bolded, you clearly don't understand the NBA. That's how the NBA works. Other leagues don't work like that. There isn't much parity in basketball. Either you get lucky and draft hall of fame players and you compete annually or you don't. Rarely do teams win through free agency. Let's look at the progression here:

 

They draft Rose in 2008. They make the Salmons/Miller moves and make the playoffs. Rose wins Rookie of the Year. They have the epic series against Boston but lose. Rose seems like an all star caliber player. In 2009 that's what happens. They make the playoffs again, lose to Lebron.

 

2010 season. Rose becomes MVP. They're the best team in the regular season. They lose to the Heat in 5 in a closer series than the number dictates. (also should be pointed out that because Lebron & Co went to Miami, there were slim pickings in terms of FA. They got stuck with Boozer. They should have gone after Lee instead, but that's in hindsight.)

 

2011, off the MVP season, Rose signs his new max deal. Bulls look even better than 2010. Luol Deng goes from decent starter to All-Star. First game of the playoffs Rose tears the ACL. Gone for a season. Bulls lose.

 

2012 - no Rose. Bulls still win a playoff series. You can't give up on Rose at this point. One knee injury. It happens. Gotta keep him in the plans for the future.

 

2013 - Tears his MCL early in the season. Again, no Rose. Noah ends up 4th in MVP voting. At this point you could potentially start planning for a replacement, but you still owe him tons of money. And now you have a seemingly all-nba center, along with an emerging Butler BTW, the job finding replacement PG's on the scrap heap was amazing. You ignore that.

 

2014 - Again, Bulls back to being pretty good. Hoping that the return of Rose, return of Noah, Pau Gasol and Butler are enough to win. It's not. They should have won that series last year, but didn't. Now is arguably the only time where it was reasonable to start thinking about a post-Rose Bulls roster, and that's pretty much what they do. They get rid of Thibs for Hoiberg because their toilet bowl offense was atrocious and cost them the series.

 

2015 - Still near the top of the East. Still stuck paying Rose 25 million or whatever for his limited production. Have dealt with injuries to Noah, McDermott, Rose and others. Still winning every game against the top competition. The lone exception is GSW on the road.

 

To me there are a FEW areas where GarPax failed. VDN wasn't a good hire. It didn't kill them since they weren't winning a title with Rose as a rookie anyway. And they were smart enough to switch gears pretty quickly. The Boozer signing wasn't great. They were forced into it given the Lebron debacle, but I still would have preferred Lee and they had a shot to get him.

 

The biggest one to me was not tanking the 2012 season. Talk about a Spurs-like potential future. You have Rose (Robinson) and a shot at Anthony Davis (Duncan). That would have been epic. But really, could the Bulls have done that? They had Noah already. They may have gone SG since that was the big complaint at the time (so maybe Beal or Dion Waters). But is that better than what they eventually got in Butler? No.

 

Big picture, I just don't see what more they could have done. They got stuck with a broken Rose. That's it. If he's the MVP Rose for his career, they probably get past Lebron at least once and get to the Finals. But, he's not, and they were stuck and still probably are because no one would want to take him with that salary.

 

Its one excuse after another. And this is what I mean. I've never seen a GM get this type of pass in any sport, much less basketball. Danny ferry got iced after LeBron left him despite making a contender similar to Pax did with the Bulls. Ferry was promptly fired, but Paxson gets more excuses.

 

Say you're right about FA. Then at that point, you have to aggressively pursue the trade market. Call teams everyday. Get creative. But don't put bulls*** offers on the table and expect for a deal to be made. They should've went after Love and Memo a lot harder when they were up for grabs. But nope, they don't like selling players high either.

 

Sorry, but 13 years of excuses and counting has been way more than enough for me.

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 09:57 AM)
Because they know it'd be a waste of assets. Cleveland already had Lebron and Irving, Spurs already had Kwahi, along with the Aging Three, GSW already had Curry, Thompson and drafted Green.

 

And the Bulls already had Rose who according to this thread, Paxson is counting hard on Rose despite saying he wouldn't two off seasons ago.

 

Bulls have Rose, Butler, and Pau. What is different between their situations other than the Bulls don't get deals done and the other teams do?

 

And again, the Spurs had to deal for Kawhi from their core. They sold high on George Hill. Something Paxson refuses to do with his guys.

 

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 10:21 AM)
They did go after melo and love. Other teams had better assets or could offer more money.

 

Bulls should've offered up Noah for Love. They refused to though Gasol was already in the bag. Denver flat out moved on from the Bulls when they stated they flat out wouldn't offer Noah for Melo. Bulls wouldn't offer Deng for prime Gasol from Memphis. Bulls wouldn't offer Asik for Courtney Lee. They flat out aren't offering s*** to teams.

 

Here, have our 8th best player and some worthless picks...

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 10:21 AM)
And the Bulls already had Rose who according to this thread, Paxson is counting hard on Rose despite saying he wouldn't two off seasons ago.

 

Bulls have Rose, Butler, and Pau. What is different between their situations other than the Bulls don't get deals done and the other teams do?

 

And again, the Spurs had to deal for Kawhi from their core. They sold high on George Hill. Something Paxson refuses to do with his guys.

 

They have a broken Rose who is no longer an all star let alone superstar.

 

Didn't the Bulls draft Butler? A guy pretty close to Khawi? Does that not count? Do the Bulls have 2-3 other Hall of Fame players and the greatest coach of the last 2 decades and one of the best ever?

 

You need to come back to reality a little and adjust your expectations.

 

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 10:23 AM)
Bulls should've offered up Noah for Love. They refused to though Gasol was already in the bag. Denver flat out moved on from the Bulls when they stated they flat out wouldn't offer Noah for Melo. Bulls wouldn't offer Deng for prime Gasol from Memphis. Bulls wouldn't offer Asik for Courtney Lee. They flat out aren't offering s*** to teams.

 

Here, have our 8th best player and some worthless picks...

 

Look at what Minn got for Love. Bulls couldn't compete with that.

 

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 11:27 AM)
They have a broken Rose who is no longer an all star let alone superstar.

 

Didn't the Bulls draft Butler? A guy pretty close to Khawi? Does that not count? Do the Bulls have 2-3 other Hall of Fame players and the greatest coach of the last 2 decades and one of the best ever?

 

You need to come back to reality a little and adjust your expectations.

 

Kawhi is leading the Spurs to championships. Yet he ays in the same league as the Bulls were LeBron and Curry are god. I wonder how he did it. Oh wait, his FO goes out and gets FAs and they make the necessary trades.

 

Miami 6 years ago was s***. Had no assets other than Wade. Yet they aggressively went after guys and even after they got the big three, they went after guys like Ray Allen.

 

So I ask again, why does the excuse train get to keep rolling when every other exec hasnt.

 

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 08:30 AM)
Look at what Minn got for Love. Bulls couldn't compete with that.

If Love became a Bull, Butler would be a Twolve and the Bulls would be worse off.

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 10:39 AM)
Kawhi is leading the Spurs to championships. Yet he ays in the same league as the Bulls were LeBron and Curry are god. I wonder how he did it. Oh wait, his FO goes out and gets FAs and they make the necessary trades.

 

Miami 6 years ago was s***. Had no assets other than Wade. Yet they aggressively went after guys and even after they got the big three, they went after guys like Ray Allen.

 

So I ask again, why does the excuse train get to keep rolling when every other exec hasnt.

 

So they don't have 3 other hall of fame players (drafted) on their roster? It was all Kawhi?

 

You can't honestly be arguing that Paxson and Gar failed because they didn't get Lebron and Bosh and Wade in one deal are you? And you're not honestly giving credit for that to Reilly are you?

 

As to the bolded, I don't know why you think people are giving them a pass. No other franchise in this city has had the sustained success over the last 6-7 years. They've played their cards as well as they could, they just got dealt some s***ty cards. I think reasonable people understand that.

Edited by Jenksismybitch

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 11:22 AM)
If Love became a Bull, Butler would be a Twolve and the Bulls would be worse off.

 

Stop bring reality into this conversation. They should have done SOMETHING! SOMETHING would have made them better than they are today!

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