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The Bulls biggest problem: John Paxson and Gar Forman

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 08:39 AM)
Kawhi is leading the Spurs to championships. Yet he ays in the same league as the Bulls were LeBron and Curry are god. I wonder how he did it. Oh wait, his FO goes out and gets FAs and they make the necessary trades.

 

Miami 6 years ago was s***. Had no assets other than Wade. Yet they aggressively went after guys and even after they got the big three, they went after guys like Ray Allen.

 

So I ask again, why does the excuse train get to keep rolling when every other exec hasnt.

What excuse train? Outside of the Blackhawks, no other organization in Chicago has been even close to as successful as Paxson has been while running the Bulls. Yes, the White Sox got a ring and the Bears sniffed a superbowl but the Bulls have consistently been playoff contenders and were at one point legit title contenders and they have consistently found new assets while going through this extensive run. Have they failed to win the title and lure the biggest fish, yes, but I still objectively look at things and say they have been one of the best front offices in basketball. The best, no, but close to, and for that, I give them credit and give them the benefit of the doubt. It isn't easy to win a title and the fact that these guys hasn't shouldn't mean you can them and go another direction.

 

They have been ripped consistently for one thing...the Thibs fiasco and deservingly so. Other than that, I don't see any reason to put them on blast.

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 11:25 AM)
What excuse train? Outside of the Blackhawks, no other organization in Chicago has been even close to as successful as Paxson has been while running the Bulls. Yes, the White Sox got a ring and the Bears sniffed a superbowl but the Bulls have consistently been playoff contenders and were at one point legit title contenders and they have consistently found new assets while going through this extensive run. Have they failed to win the title and lure the biggest fish, yes, but I still objectively look at things and say they have been one of the best front offices in basketball. The best, no, but close to, and for that, I give them credit and give them the benefit of the doubt. It isn't easy to win a title and the fact that these guys hasn't shouldn't mean you can them and go another direction.

 

They have been ripped consistently for one thing...the Thibs fiasco and deservingly so. Other than that, I don't see any reason to put them on blast.

Front office rankings in Chicago (in terms of which teams have the best chance to win it all). Which is how a front office should be judged.

1) Blackhawks

2) Cubs

3) Bears

4) White Sox

5) Bulls

Edited by ozzfest

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QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 11:39 AM)
Front office rankings in Chicago (in terms of which teams have the best chance to win it all). Which is how a front office should be judged.

1) Blackhawks

2) Cubs

3) Bears

4) White Sox

5) Bulls

 

Lol. Bears should be fifth and Bulls second.

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 11:53 AM)
Lol. Bears should be fifth and Bulls second.

Do you have any idea that the Cubs are way closer to a championship than the Bulls are?

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And 4 years ago they were one of the worst. These things are cyclical. Given the success the Bulls have had relative to their injury/contract situations, I still think the Bulls FO has done a pretty remarkable job.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 08:26 PM)
It's interesting how people can see the "Kobe had the right to veto any trade and wouldn't accept any trade where the Bulls gave up enough for the Lakers to let him go" so many times and then continue to type "They had a shot at Kobe and declined".

 

If you want to rip them, I could get that. If you want a convincing case, stop repeating things that are incorrect and have already been pointed out to be incorrect. I still haven't seen a response to the Butler thing, but fine, I'll even ignore that. How you're going to find "alternatives" to an MVP I don't know, but I'll even ignore that. Just stop repeating the Kobe thing until you can tell how it would work given that Kobe would veto the deal if the Bulls gave up the Lakers price.

Replace the Kobe gripe with the "traded LaMarcus Aldridge for Tyrus Thomas" grip or the "had a shot at pre-prime Pau Gasol and declined in order to keep the same Tyrus Thomas".

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 09:54 AM)
There's nothing you can do! They offered max contracts to all of the available top FA's out there. Wade, Lebron, Melo, etc. If they don't come here, they don't come here. It's not for a lack of trying or GarPax being reactionary. They set up those FA pushes seasons before so that they could at least be in the conversation. They made roster moves so that they could do the exact thing you're complaining about. You're faulting them for not convincing guys to give up tens of millions or to play with their buddies in a set-up championship roster in Miami. GMAFB.

 

As to the second bolded, you clearly don't understand the NBA. That's how the NBA works. Other leagues don't work like that. There isn't much parity in basketball. Either you get lucky and draft hall of fame players and you compete annually or you don't. Rarely do teams win through free agency. Let's look at the progression here:

 

They draft Rose in 2008. They make the Salmons/Miller moves and make the playoffs. Rose wins Rookie of the Year. They have the epic series against Boston but lose. Rose seems like an all star caliber player. In 2009 that's what happens. They make the playoffs again, lose to Lebron.

 

2010 season. Rose becomes MVP. They're the best team in the regular season. They lose to the Heat in 5 in a closer series than the number dictates. (also should be pointed out that because Lebron & Co went to Miami, there were slim pickings in terms of FA. They got stuck with Boozer. They should have gone after Lee instead, but that's in hindsight.)

 

2011, off the MVP season, Rose signs his new max deal. Bulls look even better than 2010. Luol Deng goes from decent starter to All-Star. First game of the playoffs Rose tears the ACL. Gone for a season. Bulls lose.

 

2012 - no Rose. Bulls still win a playoff series. You can't give up on Rose at this point. One knee injury. It happens. Gotta keep him in the plans for the future.

 

2013 - Tears his MCL early in the season. Again, no Rose. Noah ends up 4th in MVP voting. At this point you could potentially start planning for a replacement, but you still owe him tons of money. And now you have a seemingly all-nba center, along with an emerging Butler BTW, the job finding replacement PG's on the scrap heap was amazing. You ignore that.

 

2014 - Again, Bulls back to being pretty good. Hoping that the return of Rose, return of Noah, Pau Gasol and Butler are enough to win. It's not. They should have won that series last year, but didn't. Now is arguably the only time where it was reasonable to start thinking about a post-Rose Bulls roster, and that's pretty much what they do. They get rid of Thibs for Hoiberg because their toilet bowl offense was atrocious and cost them the series.

 

2015 - Still near the top of the East. Still stuck paying Rose 25 million or whatever for his limited production. Have dealt with injuries to Noah, McDermott, Rose and others. Still winning every game against the top competition. The lone exception is GSW on the road.

 

To me there are a FEW areas where GarPax failed. VDN wasn't a good hire. It didn't kill them since they weren't winning a title with Rose as a rookie anyway. And they were smart enough to switch gears pretty quickly. The Boozer signing wasn't great. They were forced into it given the Lebron debacle, but I still would have preferred Lee and they had a shot to get him.

 

The biggest one to me was not tanking the 2012 season. Talk about a Spurs-like potential future. You have Rose (Robinson) and a shot at Anthony Davis (Duncan). That would have been epic. But really, could the Bulls have done that? They had Noah already. They may have gone SG since that was the big complaint at the time (so maybe Beal or Dion Waters). But is that better than what they eventually got in Butler? No.

 

Big picture, I just don't see what more they could have done. They got stuck with a broken Rose. That's it. If he's the MVP Rose for his career, they probably get past Lebron at least once and get to the Finals. But, he's not, and they were stuck and still probably are because no one would want to take him with that salary.

 

Well done.

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Honestly, this isn't a discussion that will change anyone's minds. People believe what they believe. I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are on.

 

As a fan, would you rather make the playoffs every year with no realistic shot at competing for a championship or would you rather compete for championships and actually make it to the Finals.

 

Paxson is risk adverse.

 

PS, I said trade Noah for Love. I also said trade Noah for Melo. Bulls refused to add him in either deal which is where negotiations stopped. Funny people get criticized for video game trades, but those are the only ones the Bulls attempt and fail miserably at.

 

Fact is:

 

Bulls suck at getting FAs

Bulls suck at making trades

Bulls suck at evaluating their medical staff

Bulls are OK at drafting. And honestly, without Butler, they're mediocre at it

Bulls are horrid with coaching relationships.

 

But somehow that makes them a tip line front office. I guess as long the playoff tickets are available for a round, its all good.

 

I measure my FOs in championships and appearances. Not how many times they got exposed in the playoffs for a weak roster makeup in a very weak conference.

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 10:23 AM)
Bulls should've offered up Noah for Love. They refused to though Gasol was already in the bag. Denver flat out moved on from the Bulls when they stated they flat out wouldn't offer Noah for Melo. Bulls wouldn't offer Deng for prime Gasol from Memphis. Bulls wouldn't offer Asik for Courtney Lee. They flat out aren't offering s*** to teams.

 

Here, have our 8th best player and some worthless picks...

You mean Tyrus.

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 12:12 PM)
Honestly, this isn't a discussion that will change anyone's minds. People believe what they believe. I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are on.

 

As a fan, would you rather make the playoffs every year with no realistic shot at competing for a championship or would you rather compete for championships and actually make it to the Finals.

 

Paxson is risk adverse.

 

PS, I said trade Noah for Love. I also said trade Noah for Melo. Bulls refused to add him in either deal which is where negotiations stopped. Funny people get criticized for video game trades, but those are the only ones the Bulls attempt and fail miserably at.

 

Fact is:

 

Bulls suck at getting FAs

Bulls suck at making trades

Bulls suck at evaluating their medical staff

Bulls are OK at drafting. And honestly, without Butler, they're mediocre at it

Bulls are horrid with coaching relationships.

 

But somehow that makes them a tip line front office. I guess as long the playoff tickets are available for a round, its all good.

 

I measure my FOs in championships and appearances. Not how many times they got exposed in the playoffs for a weak roster makeup in a very weak conference.

 

UGh, this is just infuriating. You're so unrealistic.

 

Not signing FA's is completely out of their control given the NBA signing rules. Other teams can offer max contracts with more money. The Bulls can only offer max money. Period. Everyone and their mother agree that the Bulls roster was the best to join in both 2010 for Lebron and again in 2014 for Melo. So not only did the Bulls do a good enough job making room available to sign those guys to max deals, they ALSO did well enough to keep the roster full enough to be contenders. How do you not see that?

 

Making trades. Wtf trade is out there. You're going to trade Noah, the defensive player of the year and all-nba center for Love, the oft-injured PF that hadn't sniffed the playoffs. And you're going to do that WHILE IGNORING THAT OTHER TEAMS HAD BETTER ASSETS AND MINNESOTA ENDED UP GETTING A GREAT DEAL FOR HIM IN THE END. Flip Saunders is not a stupid man. The Aldridge trade looks bad in hindsight, fine. GM's make mistakes. From the post-Rose era, however, there was no trade they could have made that didn't completely empty the coffers for a championship run. What you want is for the Bulls to be the Nets right now. Go for broke, leverage the future and get stuck being terrible for another 5 years straight. No thanks. I'd rather they continue to put out a competitive product that is sometimes fun to watch and that has a CHANCE at getting to the Finals. Without any superstar on their roster, that's the best you can ask for.

 

 

 

 

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:12 PM)
Honestly, this isn't a discussion that will change anyone's minds. People believe what they believe. I guess it depends on what side of the fence you are on.

 

As a fan, would you rather make the playoffs every year with no realistic shot at competing for a championship or would you rather compete for championships and actually make it to the Finals.

 

Paxson is risk adverse.

 

PS, I said trade Noah for Love. I also said trade Noah for Melo. Bulls refused to add him in either deal which is where negotiations stopped. Funny people get criticized for video game trades, but those are the only ones the Bulls attempt and fail miserably at.

 

Fact is:

 

Bulls suck at getting FAs

Bulls suck at making trades

Bulls suck at evaluating their medical staff

Bulls are OK at drafting. And honestly, without Butler, they're mediocre at it

Bulls are horrid with coaching relationships.

 

But somehow that makes them a tip line front office. I guess as long the playoff tickets are available for a round, its all good.

 

I measure my FOs in championships and appearances. Not how many times they got exposed in the playoffs for a weak roster makeup in a very weak conference.

 

I remember every proposed deal for Love including Butler. As in, it would have been Noah + Butler. And once Wiggins was on the table, the Bulls wouldn't have been able to match any offer for Love.

 

In any event, does anyone really think Love would have put the Bulls over the top - even had the Bulls been able to land him without moving Butler?

 

I have a hard time putting the lack of title appearances on the Bulls' FO because they couldn't stop Rose from breaking. That's the single most important reason the Bulls never broke through.

 

The Bulls might have been able to give Rose away, but their best chance to win a title in the last decade (other than winning the Lebron FA lottery) was to not screw up the pieces around Rose and hope he recovered.

 

GarPax aren't infallible. You just can't hang not making a finals on them when no one could have forseen the steep decline of Rose before Rose signed his deal.

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:29 PM)
UGh, this is just infuriating. You're so unrealistic.

 

Not signing FA's is completely out of their control given the NBA signing rules. Other teams can offer max contracts with more money. The Bulls can only offer max money. Period. Everyone and their mother agree that the Bulls roster was the best to join in both 2010 for Lebron and again in 2014 for Melo. So not only did the Bulls do a good enough job making room available to sign those guys to max deals, they ALSO did well enough to keep the roster full enough to be contenders. How do you not see that?

 

Making trades. Wtf trade is out there. You're going to trade Noah, the defensive player of the year and all-nba center for Love, the oft-injured PF that hadn't sniffed the playoffs. And you're going to do that WHILE IGNORING THAT OTHER TEAMS HAD BETTER ASSETS AND MINNESOTA ENDED UP GETTING A GREAT DEAL FOR HIM IN THE END. Flip Saunders is not a stupid man. The Aldridge trade looks bad in hindsight, fine. GM's make mistakes. From the post-Rose era, however, there was no trade they could have made that didn't completely empty the coffers for a championship run. What you want is for the Bulls to be the Nets right now. Go for broke, leverage the future and get stuck being terrible for another 5 years straight. No thanks. I'd rather they continue to put out a competitive product that is sometimes fun to watch and that has a CHANCE at getting to the Finals. Without any superstar on their roster, that's the best you can ask for.

 

Nice post. I stopped reading when you said the Bulls ensured they had enough cap space for Melo. They didn't and they wanted him to come in on a 2 year deal so when the cap rose, they could sign him to a max then which is illegal. Bulls couldn't even offer the non bird max. Blame that on retaining kirk Hiinrich when they did.

 

I can't blame the FO for Rose getting hurt, but the FO blamed Thibs for not winning with Rose hurt as well. They let go of his top assistant who BTW had the best relationship with your superstar player and was voted assistant of the year last year in a power play with their coach.

 

Look up Friedell and KC Johnson reports. Bulls fired this for basketball reasons and didn't think this "championship caliber roster" was meeting expectations under their old coach who kept making the playoffs every year with Nate Robinson and DJ Augustin leading the way. This surpassed expectations and was fired. You're best argument was that Paxson met or underachieved because of Rose - but they're still here.

 

And first you want a star, and now you want to get the star under your terms. But he hadn't made the playoffs!! Anthony Davis didn't prior to last year and won't this year. Look the other way, he's not a superstar!!!!!

 

In addition, I argued to trade Joakim at his peak. His usage was way too high and he had already broken down in the playoffs. A guy with no offensive game wasn't going to be able to keep that play up, especially being a proven injury prone player as well.

Edited by nitetrain8601

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 12:54 PM)
Nice post. I stopped reading when you said the Bulls ensured they had enough cap space for Melo. They didn't and they wanted him to come in on a 2 year deal so when the cap rose, they could sign him to a max then which is illegal. Bulls couldn't even offer the non bird max. Blame that on retaining kirk Hiinrich when they did.

 

I can't blame the FO for Rose getting hurt, but the FO blamed Thibs for not winning with Rose hurt as well. They let go of his top assistant who BTW had the best relationship with your superstar player and was voted assistant of the year last year in a power play with their coach.

 

Look up Friedell and KC Johnson reports. Bulls fired this for basketball reasons and didn't think this "championship caliber roster" was meeting expectations under their old coach who kept making the playoffs every year with Nate Robinson and DJ Augustin leading the way. This surpassed expectations and was fired. You're best argument was that Paxson met or underachieved because of Rose - but they're still here.

 

And first you want a star, and now you want to get the star under your terms. But he hadn't made the playoffs!! Anthony Davis didn't prior to last year and won't this year. Look the other way, he's not a superstar!!!!!

 

In addition, I argued to trade Joakim at his peak. His usage was way too high and he had already broken down in the playoffs. A guy with no offensive game wasn't going to be able to keep that play up, especially being a proven injury prone player as well.

 

They could have traded Taj and Dunleavy if they really wanted to make room. Or they could have worked out a sign and trade. It still came down to Melo choosing that extra 30-40 million in guaranteed money. Damn GarPax for not convincing him otherwise!

 

Look, if you follow the team annually you know that last year, regardless of Rose's ability to get back to MVP form, the players had had enough of Thibs. Not just the FO, but also the team. The team was relatively healthy against the Cavs and simply could not score points against a depleted Cavs roster. That's why Thibs was canned. It was time and every reasonable person could see that. The way they went about it was wrong, but in the end I could care less about that.

 

Great, you're trading Noah. To who? Who's taking him and giving a good return?

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:05 PM)
They could have traded Taj and Dunleavy if they really wanted to make room. Or they could have worked out a sign and trade. It still came down to Melo choosing that extra 30-40 million in guaranteed money. Damn GarPax for not convincing him otherwise!

 

Look, if you follow the team annually you know that last year, regardless of Rose's ability to get back to MVP form, the players had had enough of Thibs. Not just the FO, but also the team. The team was relatively healthy against the Cavs and simply could not score points against a depleted Cavs roster. That's why Thibs was canned. It was time and every reasonable person could see that. The way they went about it was wrong, but in the end I could care less about that.

 

Great, you're trading Noah. To who? Who's taking him and giving a good return?

If you have a roster full of players that wouldn't fetch anything on the trade market (except for jimmy), doesn't your GM suck?

Edited by ozzfest

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There is so much 20/20 hindsight in a vacuum general managing here.

 

QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:08 PM)
If you have a roster full of players that wouldn't fetch anything on the trade market (except for jimmy), doesn't your GM suck?

 

Please. The bulls have plenty of assets. Boers and Bernstein are on now, call them and yell at them

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QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:09 PM)
There is so much 20/20 hindsight in a vacuum general managing here.

 

 

 

Please. The bulls have plenty of assets. Boers and Bernstein are on now, call them and yell at them

Who exactly are the Bulls assets? Other than Butler?

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QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 09:39 AM)
Front office rankings in Chicago (in terms of which teams have the best chance to win it all). Which is how a front office should be judged.

1) Blackhawks

2) Cubs

3) Bears

4) White Sox

5) Bulls

I don't even know how to analyze that list. But if I go back to Paxson's era I'd say it is Hawks and Bulls and than no one else is even close. Bears are probably 3rd (again, spanning Paxson's run...Cubs would probably rank last and Sox would rank 4th).

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 02:05 PM)
They could have traded Taj and Dunleavy if they really wanted to make room. Or they could have worked out a sign and trade. It still came down to Melo choosing that extra 30-40 million in guaranteed money. Damn GarPax for not convincing him otherwise!

 

Look, if you follow the team annually you know that last year, regardless of Rose's ability to get back to MVP form, the players had had enough of Thibs. Not just the FO, but also the team. The team was relatively healthy against the Cavs and simply could not score points against a depleted Cavs roster. That's why Thibs was canned. It was time and every reasonable person could see that. The way they went about it was wrong, but in the end I could care less about that.

 

Great, you're trading Noah. To who? Who's taking him and giving a good return?

 

That's why you trade Noah and Deng and whoever else at their peak. Not when their used up and done. That was the point!

 

And if no one is tradeabke in the squad, that's on the front office. But the front office has said this is a championship caliber roster. If they misidentified that, then that's on them as well. They fired a coach after the front offices dirty laundry was aired so they failed there as well. See where I'm going?

 

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 02:29 PM)
I don't even know how to analyze that list. But if I go back to Paxson's era I'd say it is Hawks and Bulls and than no one else is even close. Bears are probably 3rd (again, spanning Paxson's run...Cubs would probably rank last and Sox would rank 4th).

 

Like I said, Paxson did a good job turning this team from garbage into a playoff team. Just like a coach or player need to be replaced because they can't take you further if you're not at the mountaintop then they need to be replaced. 07 is when Paxson stopped being good.

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:29 PM)
I don't even know how to analyze that list. But if I go back to Paxson's era I'd say it is Hawks and Bulls and than no one else is even close. Bears are probably 3rd (again, spanning Paxson's run...Cubs would probably rank last and Sox would rank 4th).

Hawks AND Bulls? Are you kidding? The Bulls haven't accomplished anything since 1998. Since then, in 2011, their biggest accomplishment was under an MVP player who the FO got extremely lucky in winning the lottery with. You are lying to yourself if you don't see the Cubs having the second best FO in this town. Maybe even the best. Theo and Co. have built a sustainable CHAMPIONSHIP contender. That's how success should be measured.

Edited by ozzfest

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And since when is making the playoffs in the NBA a measure of success? I mean, 16 teams make the playoffs, it's not that hard, especially when one third of the league is tanking every year. Geez, I wish I could pull up the fire Jerry Angelo threads a few years back. You guys love GarPax an irrational amount. I mean, for those reading this that love GarPax, how many more years are you willing to give them?

Edited by ozzfest

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QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 12:54 PM)
Nice post. I stopped reading when you said the Bulls ensured they had enough cap space for Melo. They didn't and they wanted him to come in on a 2 year deal so when the cap rose, they could sign him to a max then which is illegal. Bulls couldn't even offer the non bird max. Blame that on retaining kirk Hiinrich when they did.

 

I can't blame the FO for Rose getting hurt, but the FO blamed Thibs for not winning with Rose hurt as well. They let go of his top assistant who BTW had the best relationship with your superstar player and was voted assistant of the year last year in a power play with their coach.

 

Look up Friedell and KC Johnson reports. Bulls fired this for basketball reasons and didn't think this "championship caliber roster" was meeting expectations under their old coach who kept making the playoffs every year with Nate Robinson and DJ Augustin leading the way. This surpassed expectations and was fired. You're best argument was that Paxson met or underachieved because of Rose - but they're still here.

 

And first you want a star, and now you want to get the star under your terms. But he hadn't made the playoffs!! Anthony Davis didn't prior to last year and won't this year. Look the other way, he's not a superstar!!!!!

 

In addition, I argued to trade Joakim at his peak. His usage was way too high and he had already broken down in the playoffs. A guy with no offensive game wasn't going to be able to keep that play up, especially being a proven injury prone player as well.

 

There's an assistant of the year award?

 

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QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:41 PM)
Hawks AND Bulls? Are you kidding? The Bulls haven't accomplished anything since 1998. Since then, in 2011, their biggest accomplishment was under an MVP player who the FO got extremely lucky in winning the lottery with. You are lying to yourself if you don't see the Cubs having the second best FO in this town. Maybe even the best. Theo and Co. have built a sustainable CHAMPIONSHIP contender. That's how success should be measured.

 

You're choosing contenders over actual winners?

 

I can't waste anymore time on this argument. It'd be one thing to argue whether this move/non-move or that move/non-move was good/bad. But you're basically arguing championship or bust in a league you don't seem to understand very well. So if that's your criteria, you're right, GarPax have been failures. To the rest of the rational world, they got unlucky with Rose and have been trying to deal with that huge gaping hole ever since. That provides them much more leeway than someone like KW that didn't just get unlucky but continually leveraged the future for short term gains, or the bears who just...well, i dunno what the hell they've been doing up until last year.

Edited by Jenksismybitch

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QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:52 PM)
You're choosing contenders over actual winners?

 

I can't waste anymore time on this argument. It'd be one thing to argue whether this move/non-move or that move/non-move was good/bad. But you're basically arguing championship or bust in a league you don't seem to understand very well. So if that's your criteria, you're right, GarPax have been failures. To the rest of the rational world, they got unlucky with Rose and have been trying to deal with that huge gaping hole ever since. That provides them much more leeway than someone like KW that didn't just get unlucky but continually leveraged the future for short term gains, or the bears who just...well, i dunno what the hell they've been doing up until last year.

1) I measure success with championship contention. Key word: contention.

2) GarPax got unlucky with DRose? They we EXTREMELY lucky to have him in the first place, less than a 2% chance of winning that lottery

3) Did you like Keith Bogans and Ronnie Brewer as your SG duo going into 2011 playoffs?

4) Do you like that this FO gave money to Dunleavy and Hinrich?

5) DO you like that this FO hasn't made a freaking trade for a rotational player in five years? (Last trade was for Acie Law and Hakim Warrick. Pathetic)

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QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 12:39 PM)
Front office rankings in Chicago (in terms of which teams have the best chance to win it all). Which is how a front office should be judged.

1) Blackhawks

2) Cubs

3) Bears

4) White Sox

5) Bulls

You must really hate the Bulls franchise.

 

At worst, they're #3.

 

They've been top 5 in the Eastern Conference for the last 5 years.

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