Sox Re-Acquire OF Jason Bourgeois

[caulfield12]

It's amazing that even over the most minor of moves, people find a way not to like it... Some are acting like this is the move the Sox are expecting to put them over the top for a playoff run.

 

 

Put over the top? Hell no.

 

Possible candidate for the final spot on the bench in the playoffs and a valuable pinch-runner, sure.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

wait, Greensox isnt for a AAAA fringe player that didnt cost any prospects? Is this crazyworld?

[GreenSox]

Ritche: Oh no! We lost...Kip Wells?

Loaiza: Steal for Kenny.

Garcia: Lost nothing of consequence, re-signed him after he was with the team (thus, not a rental) and helped win the World Series. Strong win.

For brevity, I won't quote your entire list. Many on your list include young-player for young-player trades that I said the Sox were good at. They should do more of those types of trades.

However,

1)Lose-lose is never a "Win" Neither it is a neutral experience when you are trading prospects for the veteran. It is a LOSE.

2)Prospects have value. Trading a top 10 prospect (which Reed was) and a starting catcher for a 2 month rental of an above average pitcher is bad business. Sox could have gotten much more for him. The examples of over-pay abound. You have to consider their value AT the time of trade.

Williams traded 3 of the org's top 5 prospects for Swisher; one year later he flips him for 1 utility infielder and a couple of organizational minor leaguers. Edwin Jackson had an ERA in excess of 5 and a high salary - Az was looking for a salary dump; somehow, Williams gave them the org's top 2 pitching prospects for this player. No sense of value. Just 2 examples.

3)The veteran should be the "sure thing." You are trading unknown for known. Williams had an uncanny ability to bring in average veterans.

4)2 playoff appearances in 15 years of this type of trading with an above average payroll.

Edited May 17, 2016 by GreenSox

[Y2Jimmy0]

Ritche: Oh no! We lost...Kip Wells?

Loaiza: Steal for Kenny.

Garcia: Lost nothing of consequence, re-signed him after he was with the team (thus, not a rental) and helped win the World Series. Strong win.

Swisher: Definite loss both times. No arguing there.

Thome: Huge win.

Vazquez: Three very good seasons with the team (fWAR of 4.7, 4.8, 4.7) and was acquired as a fifth starter. Chris Young had one season of similar value, five years later.

Jackson: Hudson's arm fell off and Holmberg is back in Birmingham. Jackson pitched well for the Sox, 4.7 fWAR in a year with the team.

Peavy: Gave up essentially nothing for him. Turned into Avi, Lawrie and Frazier on the current roster.

Lawrie: Gave up a AAA bullpen arm and a possible future fifth starter for a major component to the team winning right now.

Frazier: Who piece of the current team and reason why they're winning.

Youkilis: Gave up the Stealth Elf and almost made the playoffs.

Liriano: Very similar to Youkilis.

Samardzjia: Yeah, that one is bad right now but we'll have to see how far Semien's glove can go and who the Sox draft with their second 1st rounder this year.

 

Now let's look at a few others just for funsies.

 

Carlos Lee was highway robbery for Podsednik in return.

Gavin Floyd and Gio was a steal for Freddy (you can be mad for the Phillies, he only won one game with them)

Danks for BMac was a great deal.

 

Borchard for Matt Thornton was a great deal.

The Eaton trade looks mighty good as well.

 

[Quin]

For brevity, I won't quote your entire list. Many on your list include young-player for young-player trades that I said the Sox were good at. They should do more of those types of trades.

However,

1)Lose-lose is never a "Win" Neither it is a neutral experience when you are trading prospects for the veteran. It is a LOSE.

2)Prospects have value. Trading a top 10 prospect (which Reed was) and a starting catcher for a 2 month rental of an above average pitcher is bad business. Sox could have gotten much more for him. The examples of over-pay abound. You have to consider their value AT the time of trade.

Williams traded 3 of the org's top 5 prospects for Swisher; one year later he flips him for 1 utility infielder and a couple of organizational minor leaguers. Edwin Jackson had an ERA in excess of 5 and a high salary - Az was looking for a salary dump; somehow, Williams gave them the org's top 2 pitching prospects for this player. No sense of value. Just 2 examples.

3)The veteran should be the "sure thing." You are trading unknown for known. Williams had an uncanny ability to bring in average veterans.

4)2 playoff appearances in 15 years of this type of trading with an above average payroll.

 

Then please explain how the Peavy deal was in anyway bad.

[Texsox]

Esteban Loaiza is the greatest example of buying low and selling high in all of MLB history. And that isn't far from hyperbole.

[southsider2k5]

Lots of front-office apologists who refuse to look at facts, I see. Here's another fact: TWO playoff appearances in 16 years under this front office.

The list is long: Ritchie, Garcia (1/2 year rent), Swisher, Vasquez, Edwin Jackson, Samardzija, Peavy and Frazier. Only Thome could be considered a positive, but if you factor in the fact that jettisoning Frank was part of that move, it is closer to neutral.

 

Bourgeois is 34, has an OPS of .627 in .708 major league at bats. To use him for anything other than Charlotte filler would be beyond belief......except that this org. loves its veterans.

 

Heck Leury is 25 and has an OPS of .823 in Charlotte this year.

 

That list is awful. On what planet was Freddy Garcia a loss? Peavy we gave up nothing for. Frazier has been a HUGE addition to this team. We aren't in first place without him.

 

Now let's see the list of all of the failed prospects the Sox traded away for those players.

[caulfield12]

Until his last start (everyone's getting crushed by BOS these days), Chris The Dragon Devenski (Brett Myers deal in 2012) definitely looked like he belonged in his first three outings. That's definitely one to keep an eye on.

 

My problem the last couple of years has been "targeting like a predator drone" guys like Nestor Molina and Matt Davidson and not getting the value we should have when we traded two of our former closers...especially if you look at the insane prices teams paid for Giles (not even a closer in HOU) and Kimbrel this past offseason.

 

The Peavy deal was bad, in the sense that we didn't get much production out of him, he totally wet the bed in 2012 when we needed him in key starts against the Tigers, and he took up a boatload of payroll space, being paid like one of the best pitchers in the game when he wasn't even one of the Top 60-75 anymore, at least not on a consistent basis. Of course, the jury's still out on Avi Garcia.

Edited May 17, 2016 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

Esteban Loaiza is the greatest example of buying low and selling high in all of MLB history. And that isn't far from hyperbole.

 

Seriously. We got him for $500k. We got a Cy Young-ish season out of him, and then traded him for Jose Contreras who turned into the ace of the World Series run.

[Dick Allen]

All you need to know about GreenSox is he is still mad the Sox gave up Jeremy Reed for Freddy Garcia. Even with hindsight. Even knowing the Sox used Garcia to win a WS, then traded him for Floyd and Gio.

 

[caulfield12]

Speaking of the 2005 team, Aaron Miles (man, his fanboy club was so huge, it turned me into the biggest fan for who we acquired) for Juan Uribe was a complete steal for the White Sox.

 

 

[GreenSox]

Carlos Lee was highway robbery for Podsednik in return.

 

 

It was the key move for 2005, not for value received (5 WAR for 2 WAR), but because it gave them the salary flexibility to fill 2 more holes. Without AJ and Iguchi, the Sox don't win anything.

What's interesting is that the 2005 team was built through small moves and our own young players. Why not replicate that approach?

 

Thome was a 9.8 WAR player from 2006-08. Thomas and Rowand delivered 10.8 WAR in that period (not including Rowand's 2008 as he would have been a FA). And there's Gio (fortunately the Sox got him back in one of Williams' best trades ever, only to dump him).

 

 

Edited May 17, 2016 by GreenSox

[OmarComing25]

2)Prospects have value. Trading a top 10 prospect (which Reed was) and a starting catcher for a 2 month rental of an above average pitcher is bad business. Sox could have gotten much more for him. The examples of over-pay abound. You have to consider their value AT the time of trade.

If you're going to look at the trade through this lens, then you can't complain about the Vazquez, Peavy, Thome or Frazier trades (not that you should really should complain about them anyway).

Edited May 17, 2016 by OmarComing25

[Quin]

Until his last start (everyone's getting crushed by BOS these days), Chris The Dragon Devenski (Brett Myers deal in 2012) definitely looked like he belonged in his first three outings. That's definitely one to keep an eye on.

 

My problem the last couple of years has been "targeting like a predator drone" guys like Nestor Molina and Matt Davidson and not getting the value we should have when we traded two of our former closers...especially if you look at the insane prices teams paid for Giles (not even a closer in HOU) and Kimbrel this past offseason.

 

The Peavy deal was bad, in the sense that we didn't get much production out of him, he totally wet the bed in 2012 when we needed him in key starts against the Tigers, and he took up a boatload of payroll space, being paid like one of the best pitchers in the game when he wasn't even one of the Top 60-75 anymore, at least not on a consistent basis. Of course, the jury's still out on Avi Garcia.

 

Peavy did have an All-Star season and was acquired for essentially nothing.

[NorthSideSox72]

The Peavy deal was one of the best for the White Sox in years. They had no use for Peavy, got not only Garcia, but also a reliever we later used in the Lawrie deal, a pitcher used to help get Frazier, and another prospect still in the system. Not even to mention the money saved, that was used for other talent. Huge win for the Sox.

 

[peppers312]

Guillen/Hoyt

 

Sosa/Alvarez/Fletcher for Harold Baines

 

Jose Contreras for Esteban Loaiza

 

Freddy Garcia for Reed/Olivo/Morse

 

Matt Thornton for Joe Borchard

 

Danks for McCarthy

 

Pods/Vizcaino for Carlos Lee and freed up money

 

Carlos Quentin for Chris Carter

 

Eaton for Hector Santiago

 

Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd to the White Sox for Freddy Garcia

 

Nellie Fox from the Philadelphia A's

 

drops mic. lol

 

[Buehrle>Wood]

[caulfield12]

GreenSox, almost all of those players acquired for the 2005 team were "veterans" or in their prime guys.

 

Not young players, unless you count Uribe from 2004.

 

Contreras, Dye, Iguchi, Pods, Vizcaino, El Duque, Hermanson, AJ Pierzynski...they were all 28-32 year olds. They certainly weren't building a YOUNG team, other than homegrown players like Crede and Rowand. Everett was another veteran.

 

Jenks was a waiver claim. And then you had McCarthy come up at the end of the year and Brian Anderson as the top prospect.

 

Freddy Garcia was technically young, but had a ton of wear and tear on his arm by the time we got him from the M's. Luckily he had his good stuff for 1 1/2 seasons.

[SoxAce]

I can't believe this thread has reached 3 pages.

[hogan873]

I can't believe this thread has reached 3 pages.

It's reached three pages, and we're no longer talking about Jason Bourgeois. There might have been 6 or 7 posts about the actual trade.

[Kyyle23]

It's reached three pages, and we're no longer talking about Jason Bourgeois. There might have been 6 or 7 posts about the actual trade.

 

well, one poster doesnt support it because Jim Thome was traded for Aaron Rowand and Freddy Garcia was traded for Jeremy Reed.

[JPN366]

The White Sox traded Gio Gonzalez TWICE. That's a huge fail. Imagine Gio in the White Sox rotation now. Oakland traded him because they weren't going to be able to afford him.

[Dick Allen]

The White Sox traded Gio Gonzalez TWICE. That's a huge fail. Imagine Gio in the White Sox rotation now. Oakland traded him because they weren't going to be able to afford him.

If you go back, the Swisher trade was for the most part highly praised in these parts. Hindsight again has shown how smart people who don't actually make trades for a living can be.

[Greg Hibbard]

LOL at what this thread became, and LOL at "2 playoff appearances in 15 years."

 

I guess we will just forget that one of those two won the world series, and that 2006 sported a 90 win team that finished in 3rd, and that there were a few other very near misses with 86-88 win teams.

 

During the first 12 years of this front office, the Sox averaged 85 wins a season.

 

The last three seasons have been the definition of retooling, largely due to LH power hitters named Adam crapping the major league bed in an unforeseen way.

 

 

[oldsox]

Guillen/Hoyt

 

Sosa/Alvarez/Fletcher for Harold Baines

 

Jose Contreras for Esteban Loaiza

 

Freddy Garcia for Reed/Olivo/Morse

 

Matt Thornton for Joe Borchard

 

Danks for McCarthy

 

Pods/Vizcaino for Carlos Lee and freed up money

 

Carlos Quentin for Chris Carter

 

Eaton for Hector Santiago

 

Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd to the White Sox for Freddy Garcia

 

Nellie Fox from the Philadelphia A's

For Joe Tipton. And Pierce from Detroit for Aaron Robinson.