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White Sox Acquire James Shields

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 03:53 PM)
True, but they really should have been in anyway, considering the absence of heavy hitters this year.

 

Except it looks like plenty of teams are overspending anyway, even without the teams thought of as traditional spenders.

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FWIW------ I just listened on talk-radio to Peter Abraham who has covered the Red Sox for Boston Globe for years. The question came up why Red Sox didn't make a move for Shields since they need a starter and their farm is loaded w prospects. He said Red Sox scouted him and felt he could not pitch effectively in Fenway so they wouldn't give up any prospects. So it helped the White Sox that the Red Sox dropped out of the bidding.

Edited by SCCWS

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QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 03:20 PM)
This is the team you root for though. This is what they do. They are going for it. They are going for it next year. They aren't rebuilding. I wish they would spend $25-$30 million in the international market but they just don't do it. How did they deplete their system with this move? I'd argue that they could trade Shields in 2 months and acquire more than they gave up.

That's what the team under Kenny Williams does. That's not what happened under his 2 predecessors.

Yes, they could flip Shields for more than they paid if he pitches better than he has.

But, to paraphrase, that's not what they do.

Edited by GreenSox

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 03:56 PM)
That's what the team under Kenny Williams does. That's not what happened under his 2 predecessors.

Yes, they could flip Shields for more than they paid if he pitches better than he has.

But, to paraphrase, that's not what they do.

 

Honest question - its obvious you have so much hatred for the White Sox - why don't you just give up caring, or find another team to cheer on? Again, honest question - no sport/hobby should make you as miserable as you appear to be towards the Sox, so why spend so much time loathing over it?

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 01:41 PM)
Right on the money

I didn't realize I had such an ally!

 

Sox should have spent the Laroche savings on the international market. They are nowhere to be found.

 

It's not that I am an ally ( so to speak) . It's just that plenty of what you say makes sense. People here get sick of it but no law against you speaking your mind. It's very hard to choose between winning now and building for the future and often difficult to do both at the same time.

I just have seen the Sox make so many moves for vets and it not working out that it's easy to get jaded. Must have given up 75 years of cost controlled guys for about 20 years (and millions of $) of vets over the past 5-6 years. Smardzija, Dunn, Swisher, LaRoche and others.

I can't blame you for banging the drum so loudly .

 

It's just how this franchise is. Maybe we'd love to operate like the Dodgers and Cardinals but those teams have rabid fan bases . We keep hearing over the last few years that less and less revenue is tied to attendance but on the South Side it sure doesn't seem like it.

Without money from fans , TV or corporate sponsorship the team is 2nd best in its own city . If you were a corporation and had money to spend would it be here or on the North side team? Pretty easy decision.

 

Seems as though ownership has decided the Sox can't hire the best talent evaluators and create a well funded minor league system without it hurting the major league team and that is what's truly unfortunate about being a fan of this team.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 02:45 PM)
RF Eaton

2B Tim Anderson

1B Jose Abreu

DH Melky Cabrera (Hayes/Coats)

LF Ian Desmond/Fowler/Trumbo or Michael Saunders (trade)

CF Trayce Thompson

SS Marcus Semien

C BLACK HOLE

3B Juan Uribe (Davidson/Trey M./Delmonico)

 

UTIL Saladino

 

Now that team has much more balance, although it's a bit light in homers in the clean-up spot with Frazier removed...seemingly, you've got 5-7 to more than make up for that, and Uribe has occasional pop too, even at his age. And it would have four home grown players as well as one of my personal all-time favorites in Juan Game Winning Uribe.

 

I'd MUCH MUCH rather watch that team from a fan standpoint than what we have right now (much younger, more dynamic/exciting/athletic). The bottom 3 would still be relatively weak, but it would have offensive pop and not be 600-650 OPS weak.

 

Plus, you'd still have Montas in reserve to throw into the bullpen or save having to trade for James Shields.

 

And you'd have a lot more financial flexibility and future years of control, to where you wouldn't have to tear things apart after 2017.

Not sure why you dreamed this up but there is no scenario where Anderson is at 2b and Semien is at SS.

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 03:56 PM)
That's what the team under Kenny Williams does. That's not what happened under his 2 predecessors.

Yes, they could flip Shields for more than they paid if he pitches better than he has.

But, to paraphrase, that's not what they do.

Just because you brought it up. How many World Series wins and playoff appearances did the White Sox have under his predecessors?

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Shields must shake up the locker room! Bunch of overpaid selfish players is my suspicion. Shields turned around the KC Royals. Can he do the same for the Sox?? Maybe. If I were him I'd meet with Sale and discuss, cause Sale is a badass as well. The rest of 'em? Ha. Mental midgets at least IMO.

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QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:14 PM)
Shields must shake up the locker room! Bunch of overpaid selfish players is my suspicion. Shields turned around the KC Royals. Can he do the same for the Sox?? Maybe. If I were him I'd meet with Sale and discuss, cause Sale is a badass as well. The rest of 'em? Ha. Mental midgets at least IMO.

 

Who on the Sox do you find as "overpaid and selfish"?

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QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:02 PM)
Honest question - its obvious you have so much hatred for the White Sox - why don't you just give up caring, or find another team to cheer on? Again, honest question - no sport/hobby should make you as miserable as you appear to be towards the Sox, so why spend so much time loathing over it?

 

:cheers

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:11 PM)
Just because you brought it up. How many World Series wins and playoff appearances did the White Sox have under his predecessors?

None, but 2 playoffs in 16 seasons after inheriting a stocked farm and MLB team with at least a league average salary structure are lackluster results.

 

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:02 PM)
Honest question - its obvious you have so much hatred for the White Sox - why don't you just give up caring, or find another team to cheer on? Again, honest question - no sport/hobby should make you as miserable as you appear to be towards the Sox, so why spend so much time loathing over it?

I disagree with how 2 employees - Williams and Hahn - manage the White Sox.

They are assuredly NOT the White Sox

Edited by GreenSox

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:19 PM)
None, but 2 playoffs in 16 seasons after inheriting a stocked farm and MLB team isn't exemplary results.

 

That should show you how much a "stocked farm system" promises you as a MLB team.

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:19 PM)
None, but 2 playoffs in 16 seasons after inheriting a stocked farm and MLB team with at least a league average salary structure are lackluster results.

You were the one who compared Williams to the previous ones and implied they did it the right way and he is wrong. The results don't show it.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:21 PM)
That should show you how much a "stocked farm system" promises you as a MLB team.

Or how the stocked farm was managed - and whatever it was, it wasn't restocked well. He inherited a winning MLB team as well.

 

Look, prove me wrong. Load up with proven veterans and actually win.

They just keep doing the same things that haven't worked. And they don't do the things that seem to work at the winning organizations.

So yes, when they keep doing the same thing and getting the same inadequate results, I'm looking for a change in course.

Edited by GreenSox

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:19 PM)
I disagree with how 2 employees - Williams and Hahn - manage the White Sox.

They are assuredly NOT the White Sox

 

Fair enough. But you would support them if they sported this lineup? You think they'd be doing their jobs then?

 

C: Josh Phegley

1B: Danny Hayes

2B: Micah Johnson

SS: Carlos Sanchez

3B: Marcus Semien

LF: Jason Coats

CF: Trayce Thompson

RF: Adam Eaton

 

 

 

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 01:24 PM)
If Shields gets here and rebounds back to a near career normal level, his value will go up for sure assuming the Sox pass along the money from the Padres in a deal.

 

Talk about pie-in-the-sky thinking...I'd bet you dollars to donuts that doesn't happen . But yes hopeful that they get him to throw more pitches that give him a pretty good ground ball rate. His walk rate is also up so maybe he's already doing that and his other pitches are the ones being tattooed over the fences.

 

It's good to be optimistic.

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:26 PM)
Or how the stocked farm was managed - and whatever it was, it wasn't restocked well. He inherited a winning MLB team as well.

 

Look, prove me wrong. Load up with proven veterans and actually win.

They just keep doing the same things that haven't worked. And they don't do the things that seem to work at the winning organizations.

So yes, when they keep doing the same thing and getting the same inadequate results, I'm looking for a change in course.

 

As highly rated as that group was, they pretty much all busted, pretty much like almost every player that has been traded away from this organization, except for a very few exceptions.

 

If you really want to prove something, instead of just ranting, I would love to see a study done of the WAR we have traded away, and the WAR we have received in trades during Hahn and Williams time here. I have a feeling it would be incredibly slanted towards the Sox.

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:26 PM)
Or how the stocked farm was managed - and whatever it was, it wasn't restocked well. He inherited a winning MLB team as well.

 

Look, prove me wrong. Load up with proven veterans and actually win.

They just keep doing the same things that haven't worked. And they don't do the things that seem to work at the winning organizations.

So yes, when they keep doing the same thing and getting the same inadequate results, I'm looking for a change in course.

Since 2000, the KW reign only 2 teams have more World Series wins than the White Sox. Boston has 3 and SF 2. There are 7 others that have won 1 like the White sox. So in this timeframe they are better than 20 teams and equal to 7.

 

Now you can say that it is time to move on and change things, which I wouldn't disagree with. However, you can't say that under KW they have done nothing and he wasn't an effective GM.

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QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 02:02 PM)
Honest question - its obvious you have so much hatred for the White Sox - why don't you just give up caring, or find another team to cheer on? Again, honest question - no sport/hobby should make you as miserable as you appear to be towards the Sox, so why spend so much time loathing over it?

 

Question might be honest but its fully loaded. Do you agree 100% with your wife or girl friend ? Ever have heated arguments with them ? Your kids ? All relationships are filled with angst. Does that mean you hate them or love them less ? Are you a miserable person because you disagree with them ?

 

I know it's sports and not an interpersonal relationship but it's a relationship none the less.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 02:31 PM)
As highly rated as that group was, they pretty much all busted, pretty much like almost every player that has been traded away from this organization, except for a very few exceptions.

 

If you really want to prove something, instead of just ranting, I would love to see a study done of the WAR we have traded away, and the WAR we have received in trades during Hahn and Williams time here. I have a feeling it would be incredibly slanted towards the Sox.

I said this earlier...saying we haven't traded anyone of value is just another way of saying we haven't drafted anyone of value from a positional perspective in this century (cause we certainly haven't developed any who produced for the White Sox either). Only major rookie positoinal contributions made were international free agent signings involving more experienced players (Iguchi, Alexei and Abreu). Chris Young is probably the best position player traded away (along with Trayce) and from a WAR perspective, I presume Chris Young has the highest WAR of any positional player the Sox drafted this century (back in 2001) with a career WAR of 17.

 

I honestly don't know how you go 16 years of drafting and not have any positional successes. Literally flabbergasts me (Trayce and Chris Young would be the two potential exceptions and Chris Young largely had his professional impact over 2 seasons) and other than those two years was really nothing more than a serviceable role player and who knows what Trayce will end up being.

 

There in lies the crux of the situation....if we could actually develop worth a darn, we'd have better position players and a better overall team. We were able to get away with it early on, since we benefited from the successes of Rowand, Crede, Carlos Lee, Maggs of the late 90's (who made there professional impacts in the late 90's and early 2000's).

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QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 10:16 PM)
Who on the Sox do you find as "overpaid and selfish"?

I have no proof of this. But because of the team's performance I would say overpaid and selfish are ...

Lawrie, Melky, Eaton, Abreu, Frazier and Rollins. I think the bullpen guys are just bad, not selfish. Now I have no proof here, except for the Drake incident and how the "leaders" have done nothing to help this ballclub during it's struggles in losing almost every series in the last 8 series. Pathetic. Prove me wrong.

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:35 PM)
I said this earlier...saying we haven't traded anyone of value is just another way of saying we haven't drafted anyone of value from a positional perspective in this century (cause we certainly haven't developed any who produced for the White Sox either). Only major rookie positoinal contributions made were international free agent signings involving more experienced players (Iguchi, Alexei and Abreu). Chris Young is probably the best position player traded away (along with Trayce) and from a WAR perspective, I presume Chris Young has the highest WAR of any positional player the Sox drafted this century (back in 2001) with a career WAR of 17.

 

I honestly don't know how you go 16 years of drafting and not have any positional successes. Literally flabbergasts me (Trayce and Chris Young would be the two potential exceptions and Chris Young largely had his professional impact over 2 seasons) and other than those two years was really nothing more than a serviceable role player and who knows what Trayce will end up being.

 

This is exactly why I am OK with these types of deals. Player development hasn't been their strength. Finding players from the higher levels of the minors, on through to major league veterans has been what they have been much better at. A deal like we saw for Frazier is exactly what the Sox do best.

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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 02:38 PM)
This is exactly why I am OK with these types of deals. Player development hasn't been their strength. Finding players from the higher levels of the minors, on through to major league veterans has been what they have been much better at. A deal like we saw for Frazier is exactly what the Sox do best.

And that deal could end up working horrifically (if Trayce keeps doing what he's doing for a # of cost-controlled years). And either way, it is impossible to succeed as a MLB franchise if you can't develop position talent. Literally impossible. You can say that is why you are okay trading guys, but fundamentally, none of it matters if you can't develop. That is kind of the most critical part of the long-term success of a franchise, especially one that doesn't have the payroll of the Dodgers / Yankees / Red Sox.

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QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:34 PM)
Question might be honest but its fully loaded. Do you agree 100% with your wife or girl friend ? Ever have heated arguments with them ? Your kids ? All relationships are filled with angst. Does that mean you hate them or love them less ? Are you a miserable person because you disagree with them ?

 

I know it's sports and not an interpersonal relationship but it's a relationship none the less.

 

Sure, but if I had nothing good to say about my girlfriend ever and she brought me zero joy, my guess is she would no longer be my girlfriend. Whats the point if she makes you miserable?

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QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 04:35 PM)
I said this earlier...saying we haven't traded anyone of value is just another way of saying we haven't drafted anyone of value from a positional perspective in this century (cause we certainly haven't developed any who produced for the White Sox either). Only major rookie positoinal contributions made were international free agent signings involving more experienced players (Iguchi, Alexei and Abreu). Chris Young is probably the best position player traded away (along with Trayce) and from a WAR perspective, I presume Chris Young has the highest WAR of any positional player the Sox drafted this century (back in 2001) with a career WAR of 17.

 

I honestly don't know how you go 16 years of drafting and not have any positional successes. Literally flabbergasts me (Trayce and Chris Young would be the two potential exceptions and Chris Young largely had his professional impact over 2 seasons) and other than those two years was really nothing more than a serviceable role player and who knows what Trayce will end up being.

 

There in lies the crux of the situation....if we could actually develop worth a darn, we'd have better position players and a better overall team. We were able to get away with it early on, since we benefited from the successes of Rowand, Crede, Carlos Lee, Maggs of the late 90's (who made there professional impacts in the late 90's and early 2000's).

These are the two major points. Drafting and developing. I think it's the developing. Early in the KW tenure they drafted high floor low ceiling guys. It didn't work. They made some changes and started drafting Low floor high ceiling guys. It still hasn't worked. They need to somehow come up with the formula to get these to work together.

 

If someone made this argument to fire the front office I wouldn't disagree.

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