White Sox Acquire James Shields

[Kyyle23]

Umm...they traded two, Miller and Cameron Maybin. Drafted Verlander. Traded for Scherzer, that was a huge move.

 

But, just as importantly, Ilitch became willing to spend money on guys like Victor Martinez, Cecil Fielder (turned into Ian Kinsler), Magglio Ordonez, Juan Gonzalez (turned down), Pudge Rodriguez, Carlos Guillen, Fister, overspent to draft Porcello, etc.

 

Authorized more spending on Verlander/Cabrera (perhaps foolishly), Jordan Zimmermann, Upton, etc.

 

 

On December 5, 2007, the Marlins traded Cabrera and starting pitcher Dontrelle Willis to the Detroit Tigers for pitchers Andrew Miller, Dallas Trahern, Eulogio De La Cruz and Burke Badenhop, outfielder Cameron Maybin, and catcher Mike Rabelo

 

Ummm they traded 6.

 

None of the above crazy spending happens without Cabrera, which necessitated gutting their system at the time

[southsider2k5]

Ummm they traded 6.

 

None of the above crazy spending happens without Cabrera, which necessitated gutting their system at the time

 

They also traded a ton to get Juan Gonzalez.

 

November 2, 1999: Traded by the Texas Rangers with Danny Patterson and Gregg Zaun to the Detroit Tigers for Alan Webb (minors), Frank Catalanotto, Francisco Cordero, Bill Haselman, Gabe Kapler and Justin Thompson.

[ChiSox59]

They also traded a ton to get Juan Gonzalez.

 

November 2, 1999: Traded by the Texas Rangers with Danny Patterson and Gregg Zaun to the Detroit Tigers for Alan Webb (minors), Frank Catalanotto, Francisco Cordero, Bill Haselman, Gabe Kapler and Justin Thompson.

 

Frank Catalanotto - that's a name I hadn't thought of in awhile.

[Dunt]

During his two seasons with the Royals he was 20th in all of baseball in fWAR. That is pretty damn good.

 

Pretty damn good sure, but ace level? Unlikely. Jose Quintana has maintained a lower FIP across a longer stretch with the Sox and people have argued for a long time he's not an ace, so if he's not, Jame Shields sure as s*** wasnt.

 

[ChiSox59]

Pretty damn good sure, but ace level? Unlikely. Jose Quintana has maintained a lower FIP across a longer stretch with the Sox and people have argued for a long time he's not an ace, so if he's not, Jame Shields sure as s*** wasnt.

 

He may not have been an ace in the traditional sense - if you want to call the top 30 pitchers in baseball aces. But he was the best pitcher on KCs staff, and by that definition, was the ace of their staff. But he still was probably one of the best 30 SP in the game in those years.

[Chisoxfn]

I watched it then the one after it where Adi Wyner talked more extensively about pitch framing. Lets just say it made me smile when he finished up by saying he didn't think it was as important as other sabermetricians seem to think. I'

ve argued many times that its flawed just from a common sense standpoint without a math background.

Flavum, thanks for sharing that segment. It was really really good.

[Lip Man 1]

Ummm they traded 6.

 

None of the above crazy spending happens without Cabrera, which necessitated gutting their system at the time

 

And by "gutting" their farm system it appears they went to the World Series twice and the playoffs what four times in the last eight years? I'd take that in a New York minute.

 

They took their turn dominating the division much like the Indians in the 90's and the Twins in the 00's and maybe the Royals right now.

 

Geez...I wonder who is missing from that group?

 

Mark

 

[knightni]

And by "gutting" their farm system it appears they went to the World Series twice and the playoffs what four times in the last eight years? I'd take that in a New York minute.

 

They took their turn dominating the division much like the Indians in the 90's and the Twins in the 00's and maybe the Royals right now.

 

Geez...I wonder who is missing from that group?

 

Mark

It's almost as if you enjoy the Sox doing poorly.

[Hatchetman]

It's almost as if you enjoy the Sox doing poorly.

 

 

No, Lip is highly critical of management. He would like to watch better baseball.

[Kyyle23]

And by "gutting" their farm system it appears they went to the World Series twice and the playoffs what four times in the last eight years? I'd take that in a New York minute.

 

They took their turn dominating the division much like the Indians in the 90's and the Twins in the 00's and maybe the Royals right now.

 

Geez...I wonder who is missing from that group?

 

Mark

 

How many world series titles do the Twins and Indians and Tigers have?

 

 

My point was, Caulfield is acting like Detroit only spent money to win, when they didnt spend money until they traded for a transcendent hitter that they could build around, which they did.

 

 

Your point is, the white sox suck. So thanks for that.

[lasttriptotulsa]

And by "gutting" their farm system it appears they went to the World Series twice and the playoffs what four times in the last eight years? I'd take that in a New York minute.

 

They took their turn dominating the division much like the Indians in the 90's and the Twins in the 00's and maybe the Royals right now.

 

Geez...I wonder who is missing from that group?

 

Mark

 

Who is missing from that group? I don't know, maybe the only Central Division team other than the Royals to win a World Series in your given time frames.

[caulfield12]

Ummm they traded 6.

 

None of the above crazy spending happens without Cabrera, which necessitated gutting their system at the time

 

"I told the Marlins he's going to be in the best shape you've ever seen him in," White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen said, according to the Times. "Whoever gets this guy is going to have a heck of a ballplayer with a different mentality. He's a big man and he has to take care of himself. ... He has the power and talent to be one of the best players ever." espn.com

 

Maybe Ozzie is a better judge of players than we thought....

 

And De La Cruz was the only player there of the other 4 who was close to top rated, because of his 100+ MPH. Dallas Trahen was 8th in their system at the time of the deal, but that's like calling Courtney Hawkins a top prospect if we acquired Mike Trout and he was the 4th highest ranked prospect in the deal, with two others behind him. De La Cruz, maybe, being the equivalent of Frankie Montas.

 

So if we traded Fulmer, Anderson (and they're both ranked behind where Miller/Maybin were by quite a bit), Montas/Spencer Adams, Hawkins and let's say Jacob May OR Trey M. and Tyler Danish OR Guerrero, I don't think anyone would be too upset about that trade at all, if Reinsdorf was actually willing to raise the payroll up into the $150 million range to accommodate Trout's contract escalating.

 

http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2006/11...pects-for-2007/

 

[ptatc]

"I told the Marlins he's going to be in the best shape you've ever seen him in," White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen said, according to the Times. "Whoever gets this guy is going to have a heck of a ballplayer with a different mentality. He's a big man and he has to take care of himself. ... He has the power and talent to be one of the best players ever." espn.com

 

Maybe Ozzie is a better judge of players than we thought....

 

And De La Cruz was the only player there of the other 4 who was close to top rated, because of his 100+ MPH. Dallas Trahen was 8th in their system at the time of the deal, but that's like calling Courtney Hawkins a top prospect if we acquired Mike Trout and he was the 4th highest ranked prospect in the deal, with two others behind him. De La Cruz, maybe, being the equivalent of Frankie Montas.

 

So if we traded Fulmer, Anderson (and they're both ranked behind where Miller/Maybin were by quite a bit), Montas/Spencer Adams, Hawkins and let's say Jacob May OR Trey M. and Tyler Danish OR Guerrero, I don't think anyone would be too upset about that trade at all, if Reinsdorf was actually willing to raise the payroll up into the $150 million range to accommodate Trout's contract escalating.

 

http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2006/11...pects-for-2007/

Willing or able? What's makes you think the team has that kind of money when only 4 or 5 teams in the entire league are spending that?

[Lip Man 1]

Who is missing from that group? I don't know, maybe the only Central Division team other than the Royals to win a World Series in your given time frames.

 

Great! Eleven years ago. Four World Series appearances in the last 100 YEARS.

 

Hey we're TOTALLY successful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Let's put it another way, the Miami Marlins have won two World Series in a shorter period of time.

 

Mark

Edited June 7, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[Lip Man 1]

It's almost as if you enjoy the Sox doing poorly.

 

Right, I've been a fan for 55 seasons. I must be a masochist. LOL.

 

Try something else please.

 

Mark

[southsider2k5]

Right, I've been a fan for 55 seasons. I must be a masochist. LOL.

 

Try something else please.

 

Mark

 

tasty irony.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Great! Eleven years ago. Three World Series appearances in the last 100 YEARS.

 

Hey we're TOTALLY successful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Let's put it another way, the Miami Marlins have won two World Series in a shorter period of time.

 

Mark

 

Nobody's talking about the Marlins or the past hundred years. You are acting as if the Twins of the '00s, the Tigers of the '00s and '10s and the Indians of the '90s were much more successful than the Sox since the '90s. And the fact of the matter is none of those teams won a World Series. Making the playoffs doesn't mean s*** unless you win it all. Winning a World Series trumps everything. Would you trade the '05 World Series for the Tigers 2 appearances and a couple additional playoff appearances? I highly doubt it.

[Kyyle23]

Great! Eleven years ago. Three World Series appearances in the last 100 YEARS.

 

Hey we're TOTALLY successful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Let's put it another way, the Miami Marlins have won two World Series in a shorter period of time.

 

Mark

 

Ok, but again the Indians havent won in like 60 plus years, Twins havent won since 91, Detroit since what, 84? Dont come in stumping success for these teams when they havent even grabbed the brass ring in decades.

 

We all want consistent success. Can you read that? WE ALL WANT CONSISTENT SUCCESS. As white sox fans, we all know consistent success has been nonexistent and want it to change.

 

But thanks for pointing out every chance you get that they dont have consistent success. Without you telling me every chance you get, I dont think i would know.

 

Kyle

[Lip Man 1]

tasty irony.

 

 

Be more than happy to, in fact I'd LOVE TO. Let me know when the Sox provide me a real reason to do so OK?

 

Mark

[Lip Man 1]

Nobody's talking about the Marlins or the past hundred years. You are acting as if the Twins of the '00s, the Tigers of the '00s and '10s and the Indians of the '90s were much more successful than the Sox since the '90s. And the fact of the matter is none of those teams won a World Series. Making the playoffs doesn't mean s*** unless you win it all. Winning a World Series trumps everything. Would you trade the '05 World Series for the Tigers 2 appearances and a couple additional playoff appearances? I highly doubt it.

 

Your last point is very interesting. At the time I was among those who felt that if the Sox won the World Series and then sucked for the next ten years it would be worth it.

 

Having (ironically) basically gone through that exact scenario, now I really wonder.

 

The Sox from 1951-1967 were one of the best, most stable franchises in all of MLB. 17 straight winning seasons, seven of them with 90+ wins yet they only made the World Series once and lost it.

 

To be perfectly honest with you if the devil offered me that scenario today I might very well take it...at least I'd see very good baseball and know that more than likely when the season was done the team was going to win a lot more games then they lost. I'd have to think hard about that one.

 

And one final point, you're chances of winning the World Series are zero if you don't even make the playoffs. Those teams you mentioned at least had a shot to do so by making it. I'd gladly take my chances of the Sox not winning it if at least they could get there to try.

 

Mark

Edited June 7, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[caulfield12]

The Braves really were failures.

Yankees, too, since that run in the mid to late 90's. Mid to late 90's Indians. All those great Mariners' teams. Twins making the playoffs 6 out of 9 seasons as a small market team that was almost relocated by MLB.

 

We basically have had the same degree of success, if not more. Kenny Williams deserves another promotion, just for 2005.

 

By that definition, the ONLY solution is to hire a GM with MORE than one World Series title.

 

That limits us to Theo Epstein, currently unavailable, Brian Sabean (assuming he's currently unwilling to leave SFG for the Sox with his team in first place in yet another even-numbered year) and Larry Beinfest, who I'm pretty sure was around for both Marlins' championship (Dombrowski was the GM in 1997).

 

Same thing with managers. We should have hired Francona instead of the Indians, or Bruce Bochy.

Edited June 7, 2016 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

Ok, but again the Indians havent won in like 60 plus years, Twins havent won since 91, Detroit since what, 84? Dont come in stumping success for these teams when they havent even grabbed the brass ring in decades.

 

We all want consistent success. Can you read that? WE ALL WANT CONSISTENT SUCCESS. As white sox fans, we all know consistent success has been nonexistent and want it to change.

 

But thanks for pointing out every chance you get that they dont have consistent success. Without you telling me every chance you get, I dont think i would know.

 

Kyle

 

Very happy to provide that service to you. We all do what we can!

 

Mark

 

[Lip Man 1]

The Braves really were failures.

Yankees, too, since that run in the mid to late 90's. Mid to late 90's Indians. All those great Mariners' teams. Twins making the playoffs 6 out of 9 seasons as a small market team that was almost relocated by MLB.

 

We basically have had the same degree of success, if not more. Kenny Williams deserves another promotion, just for 2005.

 

Well played sir!

 

Mark

 

[caulfield12]

By definition, wouldn't Mr. Ozzie Guillen then be a better manager (even while "stone cold" drunk) than Robin Ventura because he's at least shown the ability to win a World Series, which is one more than Robin Ventura has ever won.

 

Following along with this line of logic, Guillen took two teams to the playoffs in the span of five seasons, something you'd have to go back many decades in Sox history to match. Ventura is 0 for 4 and closing in on 0 for 5. Ergo...contract extension?

 

Greg wins!

Edited June 7, 2016 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

Well played sir!

 

Mark

 

Its extremely well played. The yankees, who won what, 5 titles in 6 season? Yea, totally the same thing. What has happened to the Braves since that playoff success ended? oh s***, nobody comes to games anymore and they are screwing over cobb county for a new stadium they dont need, and currently have the worst team in the league. What happened to the Indians since their sellout string ended? Oh man, nobody comes to their park anymore either and have had 2 playoff appearances since 2001.

 

None of these teams are capitalizing on this tremendous success that you are touting, and now you want to act like the Sox WS is some sort of an embarrassing burden because it was a fluke.

 

well played indeed

 

By definition, wouldn't Mr. Ozzie Guillen then be a better manager (even while "stone cold" drunk) than Robin Ventura because he's at least shown the ability to win a World Series, which is one more than Robin Ventura has ever won.

 

Following along with this line of logic, Guillen took two teams to the playoffs in the span of five seasons, something you'd have to go back many decades in Sox history to match. Ventura is 0 for 4 and closing in on 0 for 5. Ergo...contract extension?

 

Greg wins!

 

Logic isnt exactly your strong suit. At least, 9 out of 10 times it isnt.