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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 11:50 AM)
Robertson, Melky, Navarro, Shields, and maybe Frazier if he picks it up in July.

 

The rest would be on the market after the season when there would be more bidders available.

 

No GM in his right mind would trade for Shields. Navarro may be a tough sell as well.

 

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QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 12:50 PM)
Robertson, Melky, Navarro, Shields, and maybe Frazier if he picks it up in July.

 

The rest would be on the market after the season when there would be more bidders available.

 

All this would do is clear salary. It would not come close to actually replenishing our farm.

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Robertson and Melky won't get you much, but both are capable players, and teams need OF/DH and relievers. You can get real actual prospects, but probably not top 100 guys.

 

Navarro, Shields, etc are more likely to be released than traded.

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QUOTE (daggins @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 01:13 PM)
Robertson and Melky won't get you much, but both are capable players, and teams need OF/DH and relievers. You can get real actual prospects, but probably not top 100 guys.

 

Navarro, Shields, etc are more likely to be released than traded.

 

You could definitely get something of value for Melky and Robertson, but like you said, nothing that exciting.

 

But, lets be real, the Sox aren't selling. If they do, it will be in the offseason.

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QUOTE (daggins @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 12:19 PM)
Guys i'd trade if the pain don't stop: Sale, Robertson, Melky, Jones

Guys I hold on to for dear life: Q, Rodon, Eaton

Guys with low trade value: Abreu, Frazier

 

You could completely rebuild the farm by trading those 4 guys and still have a few nice core pieces. All those guys in the 2 group are around til 2020 at least so you can build around them.

 

Not saying its the best plan but its better that 76-80 wins a season for the next 5 years or a $150MM payroll and 85-88 wins over the same span.

 

Jose Abreu does not have "low trade value". It wasn't what it was a year ago, but the dude is still massively valuable.

 

He's also not getting traded.

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Here's the thing and I think this pretty much describes why I have such disdain for rebuilds in baseball is because people act like they are entitled to something good happening. Just because you wasted years of baseball and intentionally tanked does not mean you have anything good coming your way. Basically if the team does go down that path they better make sure the correct people are in charge. Or everyone is going to suffer for a very long time. Just ask the Edmonton Oilers or the Kansas City Royals before they finally broke through after a few decades.

 

It's conflicting a little. There's not much fans can do about it right now except jump ship which I would recommend for teams struggling down this path. But in the future like I've suggested there should be punishments for just this long period of ineptitude.

Edited by Baron

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QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 02:18 PM)
Jose Abreu does not have "low trade value". It wasn't what it was a year ago, but the dude is still massively valuable.

 

He's also not getting traded.

 

Believe it or not, he's over a 1/2 million negative value right now per Fangraphs:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playe...sition=1B#value

 

If anything is massive, it's his DROP OFF in value from his previous 2 years.

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QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 03:16 PM)
Believe it or not, he's over a 1/2 million negative value right now per Fangraphs:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playe...sition=1B#value

 

If anything is massive, it's his DROP OFF in value from his previous 2 years.

 

He is still massively valuable, despite what his number look like right now.

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QUOTE (Baron @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 01:52 PM)
Here's the thing and I think this pretty much describes why I have such disdain for rebuilds in baseball is because people act like they are entitled to something good happening. Just because you wasted years of baseball and intentionally tanked does not mean you have anything good coming your way. Basically if the team does go down that path they better make sure the correct people are in charge. Or everyone is going to suffer for a very long time. Just ask the Edmonton Oilers or the Kansas City Royals before they finally broke through after a few decades.

 

It's conflicting a little. There's not much fans can do about it right now except jump ship which I would recommend for teams struggling down this path. But in the future like I've suggested there should be punishments for just this long period of ineptitude.

 

 

The Minnesota Twins would be another good example.

 

If Buxton and Berrios don't make it, then it's going to be very challenging....Sano can hit, but he can't field, so that doesn't provide a whole lot of surplus value right there.

 

They've been rebuilding since 2011-12, essentially.

 

Padres. Marlins.

 

A's, although Beane has had some success again recently until these past two years when they "went for it" in mid 2014 and came up short in the WC game and had to tear apart that team.

 

 

Guess we'll see how it works in PHA, Cincy, Colorado, SD and Atlanta. Colorado and SD, it's hard to say exactly what they are doing, same with Milwaukee.

 

Otoh, the Mets were becoming so good at developing young pitching they could afford to spin off Fulmer for Cespedes. Fulmer is probably the third or fourth best pitcher in the AL Central now to Danny Salazar/Sale/Q.

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 02:19 PM)
He is still massively valuable, despite what his number look like right now.

 

 

But his value is eroded by his defensive issues...he really should be limited to the AL.

 

I can't imagine most playoff-aspiring teams would stick him out there in the field unless they had no better option (maybe a hitter was limited to DH because of lingering injuries).

 

And the next three years, his contract becomes more expensive/arbitration.

 

 

Let's just put it this way...if he was on another team, would you trade Carson Fulmer or Zack Collins for him? Wouldn't that be an overpay if you could get similar production from a Pearce at a fraction of the cost?

Edited by caulfield12

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If you're doing a rebuild, who's untouchable/who are you holding on to?

 

I would say that Rodon, Anderson, and my current prospects are all untouchable going forward.

 

You?

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Depends on how the organization sees Fulmer and Adams going forward.

 

Nobody is untouchable if another team is willing to give you more than you feel they're inherently worth...especially with the injury risk with pitchers being so high.

 

Theoretically, you'd say that Anderson and Rodon are it....but, once again, what are the odds of getting max value from Eaton/Q/Sale?

 

Trading Frazier and Abreu at this point (eroded values) doesn't make sense.

 

That leaves you working on the periphery again....clearing out Cabrera, Robertson, possibly Jones (or you make him your closer and/or wait for Burdi) and Lawrie. These aren't going to net you much better prospects than Avi/Davidson, but are more done for salary relief purposes. Just for symbolic purposes, they need to move on from Avi as well.

 

The problem is that once you've traded Cabrera/Robertson/Jones/Lawrie/Garcia, then what's the point having your core intact if that core is going to have to wait at least 1-2 years for those newly-acquired players just to get their feet wet in the big leagues?

 

So it all depends on how advanced the prospects are...if the best you can get is players that are in High A ball this season, then there's really little advantage to holding Sale/Q/Eaton because by the time they've established themselves as big leaguers, one of those players is either hurt/diminished in value or the window's already starting to close with their contracts.

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (Joshua Strong @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 04:23 PM)
If you're doing a rebuild, who's untouchable/who are you holding on to?

 

I would say that Rodon, Anderson, and my current prospects are all untouchable going forward.

 

You?

Rodon & Anderson. With Carlos you've got 5 more years of control and 6 for Tim.

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QUOTE (beautox @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 05:25 PM)
Rodon & Anderson. With Carlos you've got 5 more years of control and 6 for Tim.

 

Yeah Rodon could potentially develop into an ace that you could have for the first couple years after a rebuild (or deal when he won't sign a friendly extension).

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You build the core around Rodon, Anderson, Fulmer. Hope that Danish, Adams, Guerrero, Engel can contribute at the MLB level.

 

Also hope that Collins and Burdi are MLB ready by next year as their scouting reports indicate.

 

Trading Sale, Q, Eaton and Abreu should get at least 12 to 14 quality prospects between the 4 of them. Obviously not all top 100 guys, but legit prospects that project to have MLB careers.

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Also guys like Jones, Frazier, Melky, Lawrie, Robertson, Duke all have value. Maybe you don't get an "exciting" prospect back but some raw high reward type prospects.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 05:02 PM)
Depends on how the organization sees Fulmer and Adams going forward.

 

Nobody is untouchable if another team is willing to give you more than you feel they're inherently worth...especially with the injury risk with pitchers being so high.

 

Theoretically, you'd say that Anderson and Rodon are it....but, once again, what are the odds of getting max value from Eaton/Q/Sale?

 

Trading Frazier and Abreu at this point (eroded values) doesn't make sense.

 

That leaves you working on the periphery again....clearing out Cabrera, Robertson, possibly Jones (or you make him your closer and/or wait for Burdi) and Lawrie. These aren't going to net you much better prospects than Avi/Davidson, but are more done for salary relief purposes. Just for symbolic purposes, they need to move on from Avi as well.

 

The problem is that once you've traded Cabrera/Robertson/Jones/Lawrie/Garcia, then what's the point having your core intact if that core is going to have to wait at least 1-2 years for those newly-acquired players just to get their feet wet in the big leagues?

 

So it all depends on how advanced the prospects are...if the best you can get is players that are in High A ball this season, then there's really little advantage to holding Sale/Q/Eaton because by the time they've established themselves as big leaguers, one of those players is either hurt/diminished in value or the window's already starting to close with their contracts.

In other words, you will tell us what you would have done now sometime down the road.

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Best not to expect too much from those four "lesser" prospects you listed.

 

We can list 10-15 guys, doesn't necessarily make them major league caliber. Certainly not penciling them into future line-ups.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 04:57 PM)
In other words, you will tell us what you would have done now sometime down the road.

 

 

LOL.

 

Okay, tell us what you would do.

 

I already said I would start listening on Cabrera, Robertson, Lawrie, Jones (unless they want to keep him as the closer waiting for Burdi to arrive) and Avi Garcia.

 

Trading Frazier, Shields and Abreu now makes zero sense.

 

I wouldn't be adding a bat unless it was simply taking on salary, and it would be a player whose contract was expiring this season or no later than 2017.

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QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 12:57 PM)
All this would do is clear salary. It would not come close to actually replenishing our farm.

 

No, it would not replenish the farm, but those are all players that can be plugged into a team making a playoff run and their value for such will inflate their trade value to get a decent prospect for each.

 

You replenish the farm in the off-season when you move the big names and have a more wide open bidding war. Sale on the market in July probably gets serious interest from 10 teams that are trying to make a run whereas that number likely doubles at the winter meetings.

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QUOTE (Joshua Strong @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 04:23 PM)
If you're doing a rebuild, who's untouchable/who are you holding on to?

 

I would say that Rodon, Anderson, and my current prospects are all untouchable going forward.

 

You?

 

Definitely Rodon and Anderson. And I'd probably add Quintana to that list. He's very cheap for a #2 and under team control through 2020. He's also under-valued to the point where I don't think that trading him would net a fair return.

 

I wouldn't say that Eaton is untouchable, but I'd strongly prefer to build around him and a GM would really have to overwhelm me to get him.

 

 

 

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 12:17 PM)
Definitely Rodon and Anderson. And I'd probably add Quintana to that list. He's very cheap for a #2 and under team control through 2020. He's also under-valued to the point where I don't think that trading him would net a fair return.

 

I wouldn't say that Eaton is untouchable, but I'd strongly prefer to build around him and a GM would really have to overwhelm me to get him.

 

Jose Quintana is a #1 on most teams.

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QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 12:18 PM)
Jose Quintana is a #1 on most teams.

 

This season, yes. Prior to this season, his numbers would make him a #2 on a lot of teams.

 

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QUOTE (y2chae @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 05:52 PM)
Also guys like Jones, Frazier, Melky, Lawrie, Robertson, Duke all have value. Maybe you don't get an "exciting" prospect back but some raw high reward type prospects.

Agree those guys have value of varying amounts.

it's up to the FO to extract it.

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The Sox have a nice easy patch in their schedule coming up but I think they should seriously be navigating the trade market as sellers and getting a feel of the trade value of guys like Robertson, Melky and even Quintana, who I would only move if I'm getting an elite prospect back in any package. If the Sox are smart and take their lumps for two seasons they can really improve the trajectory of the franchise for the better. But would Jerry want to do that?

Edited by Joshua Strong

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