Rick Hahn

[caulfield12]

Latos was not a negative move. In a world where mediocre starters get 12-15 million a year, 3 million is nothing, his April alone made the move worth it. If Rollins played any major part in getting LaRoche to retire, and it sounds like he did, then he was actually one of Hahn's better moves regardless of what he did on the field, and that's not including anything he might have done for Anderson and Saladino as a veteran presence. Beckham for 2 million was also fine, he was worth 0.3 WAR as a bench player, he earned his small paycheck. I also think people way overrate how bad the Duke move was, and it's hilarious that Greensox is mad that the Sox traded over the hill veterans in Rios (no he didn't help win a title, he was one of their worst players), Thornton and De Aza, way to talk out of both sides of your mouth.

 

Latos was too cheap. If Hahn signed him for $6-8 million, he'd still be the 5th starter and we wouldn't have traded for Shields...spending another $27 million in the process.

 

Greensox also failed to include not seeing any VALUE in Junior Guerra, he of the 4-1 record for the Brewers and nifty ERA.

 

Really pushing it to argue Rollins influenced LaRoche to retire, we might as well blame Chicago schools and Rahm Emmanuel. Omar Vizquel in 2010 with Alexei he was not.

 

 

If you really want to argue what would have been the BEST possible way to spend money this offseason, it would have been Asdrubal Cabrera at 3B and Desmond at SS and then Pearce/Raburn/Alvarez to share DH. Not necessarily playing Saladino or Sanchez this year, because the first two players would have made the major league team much more competitive in 2016. Obviously a lot of GM's passed on both those guys. A lot of smart GM's signed the likes of Gordon, Upton (finally heating up) and Heyward, too.

Edited June 23, 2016 by caulfield12

[FT35]

Latos was too cheap. If Hahn signed him for $6-8 million, he'd still be the 5th starter and we wouldn't have traded for Shields...spending another $27 million in the process.

 

Greensox also failed to include not seeing any VALUE in Junior Guerra, he of the 4-1 record for the Brewers and nifty ERA.

 

Really pushing it to argue Rollins influenced LaRoche to retire, we might as well blame Chicago schools and Rahm Emmanuel. Omar Vizquel in 2010 with Alexei he was not.

 

 

If you really want to argue what would have been the BEST possible way to spend money this offseason, it would have been Asdrubal Cabrera at 3B and Desmond at SS and then Pearce/Raburn/Alvarez to share DH. Not necessarily playing Saladino or Sanchez this year, because the first two players would have made the major league team much more competitive in 2016. Obviously a lot of GM's passed on both those guys. A lot of smart GM's signed the likes of Gordon, Upton (finally heating up) and Heyward, too.

 

I was originally against the Rollins signing based on principle alone, but the picture is clearing up a little watching Anderson. He's definitely up and down, but looks like he could contribute. The Rollins signing was a cheap way to cover the first couple months. Had they signed Desmond (or Cabrera to play SS), they would have spent a lot more to cover those 2 months and been forced to keep Anderson in the minors, once again--a top prospect blocked from the MLB roster by a mediocre vet. With Rollins, they could feel good about cutting him and his minor league deal and sliding Anderson in at short.

[southsider2k5]

They're just names until they at least reach Winston-Salem...or start showing up in the Top 10 list (Adolfo briefly made it, but probably wouldn't have in most systems with a lot of depth/talent)

 

Whether it's 50, 100 or 150 names, doesn't matter unless we can see what other teams thought they were worth or what other teams were willing to invest in them if the Sox didn't sign them first...

 

And what were the signing bonuses for all those players, compared to the rest of MLB team expenditures internationally in the last 3 years?

 

It's not the ONLY indicator, but it's an important one. Ynoa and Sano, for example, were the two highest paid out of the Dominican the year they both signed. Ynoa actually set a record with his bonus.

 

And that was the sound of the goal posts being moved, yet again.

 

[caulfield12]

I was originally against the Rollins signing based on principle alone, but the picture is clearing up a little watching Anderson. He's definitely up and down, but looks like he could contribute. The Rollins signing was a cheap way to cover the first couple months. Had they signed Desmond (or Cabrera to play SS), they would have spent a lot more to cover those 2 months and been forced to keep Anderson in the minors, once again--a top prospect blocked from the MLB roster by a mediocre vet. With Rollins, they could feel good about cutting him and his minor league deal and sliding Anderson in at short.

 

Have you seen their stats this year?

 

Have you seen Anderson's walk rate and struggles with breaking stuff?

 

Anderson's OPS is somewhere in the low 700's for now, but he's going to have to up that OBP. Defensively, he has been better than many expected.

 

The thing about Cabrera/Desmond is that they can play multiple positions and DH. Desmond's not playing SS in Texas, neither is Jurickson Profar, yet both of those guys are natural SS's. The more athletic ability you have on the diamond, the better off you are. Remember when Alexei Ramirez played 2B and CF in 2008 early in the year? If you can play SS, you can play ANYWHERE on the field.

[caulfield12]

And that was the sound of the goal posts being moved, yet again.

 

 

Fine, you tell us.

 

What's a realistic goal for when we will have received 5 total WAR out of all our Latin American investments?

 

2019? 2020? 2021?

[Kyyle23]

And that was the sound of the goal posts being moved, yet again.

 

nothing but goalpost sized holes all over this field

[Dick Allen]

Have you seen their stats this year?

 

Have you seen Anderson's walk rate and struggles with breaking stuff?

 

Anderson's OPS is somewhere in the low 700's for now, but he's going to have to up that OBP. Defensively, he has been better than many expected.

 

The thing about Cabrera/Desmond is that they can play multiple positions and DH. Desmond's not playing SS in Texas, neither is Jurickson Profar, yet both of those guys are natural SS's. The more athletic ability you have on the diamond, the better off you are. Remember when Alexei Ramirez played 2B and CF in 2008 early in the year? If you can play SS, you can play ANYWHERE on the field.

Hanley Ramirez

 

Also see Tyler Saladino's attempt to play the OF in AAA.

 

Also don't think Cal Ripken would have made much of a CF. Peralta would have been pretty bad out there as well.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

Fine, you tell us.

 

What's a realistic goal for when we will have received 5 total WAR out of all our Latin American investments?

 

2019? 2020? 2021?

There was an expose on the Dominican players on 60 Minutes or some program like it, the average developmental time for these kids is 8 years from what they said. It's not just the White Sox.

 

So expecting the Sox to sign a 16 year old and have him dominating the minor leagues in 2 years is really not realistic.

[caulfield12]

There was an expose on the Dominican players on 60 Minutes or some program like it, the average developmental time for these kids is 8 years from what they said. It's not just the White Sox.

 

So expecting the Sox to sign a 16 year old and have him dominating the minor leagues in 2 years is really not realistic.

 

But you're going to see real progress out of a kid by the time they're 19 or 20.

 

They've started playing, with very real competition, at the time they were 12-14, signed at 16 usually.

 

I bet if you were to look at the top 100 Dominican MLB players of all time, 97-98% of them were in AA by their 4th or 5th year (at the latest) in a minor league system. At least 50% were up to the big leagues by 20-22. The ones "blossoming" at 23 and 24 are rare indeed.

 

Now you can use the example of someone like Paulo Orlando, who's 30 years old now and has been a journeyman in the minors his entire lifetime as a professional ballplayer until 2015. Those situations are rare indeed, and that's primarily because he spent most of his youth as a soccer player and junior national level sprinter (100 M/4 X 100 meter relay)...so his baseball development was delayed way beyond where guys like Tim Anderson or Lorenzo Cain started.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

But you're going to see real progress out of a kid by the time they're 19 or 20.

 

They've started playing, with very real competition, at the time they were 12-14, signed at 16 usually.

 

I bet if you were to look at the top 100 Dominican MLB players of all time, 97-98% of them were in AA by their 4th or 5th year (at the latest) in a minor league system. At least 50% were up to the big leagues by 20-22. The ones "blossoming" at 23 and 24 are rare indeed.

 

Now you can use the example of someone like Paulo Orlando, who's 30 years old now and has been a journeyman in the minors his entire lifetime as a professional ballplayer until 2015. Those situations are rare indeed, and that's primarily because he spent most of his youth as a soccer player and junior national level sprinter (100 M/4 X 100 meter relay)...so his baseball development was delayed way beyond where guys like Tim Anderson or Lorenzo Cain started.

 

ORLY? Top 100 Dominican players of all time? Step out on that limb Caulfield, it is safe

 

 

Where does the brazilian Paulo Orlando fit in here? Oh yea, Royals.

[Dick Allen]

Buddy Bell said when these kids are signed, they have hardly played in actual games. It isn't like US players. They go to these camps where they work on their speed, running straight ahead, not the bases, their arms, etc. A lot of them have to be taught the basics of playing the game.

 

This is a very slow process, and the White Sox don't have the advantages teams like the Dodgers and Red Sox and Cubs have where they can throw mountains of money at players and if they don't work out, fine. Rusney Castillo is in the minor leagues for Boston working on what would be the biggest contract in White Sox history if they were paying him.

[caulfield12]

Hanley Ramirez

 

Also see Tyler Saladino's attempt to play the OF in AAA.

 

Also don't think Cal Ripken would have made much of a CF. Peralta would have been pretty bad out there as well.

 

 

It's just a GENERAL rule, DJ and Farmer bring it up nearly every week.

 

Michael Morse started out as a SS, Thome played SS and 3B, etc.

 

Tyler mostly played LF.

 

Everyone said Peralta couldn't play SS for Detroit almost a decade ago.

[caulfield12]

ORLY? Top 100 Dominican players of all time? Step out on that limb Caulfield, it is safe

 

 

Where does the brazilian Paulo Orlando fit in here? Oh yea, Royals.

 

 

Who signed Paulo Orlando?

 

The White Sox should actually get some credit for that...the lifetime WAR of players originating in the Sox system.

 

Or for Rienzo, although he probably has a negative WAR.

 

 

We were one of the first teams to go into Brazil....Anderson Gomes as well. Yan Gomes with the Indians, etc. So I suppose we get some credit for helping to open up that market, although we didn't really directly benefit from it.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

wtf are you even arguing anymore Caulfield. Do you know?

[ChiSox59]

wtf are you even arguing anymore Caulfield. Do you know?

 

He just likes to hear himself type.

[Dick Allen]

It's just a GENERAL rule, DJ and Farmer bring it up nearly every week.

 

Michael Morse started out as a SS, Thome played SS and 3B, etc.

 

Tyler mostly played LF.

 

Everyone said Peralta couldn't play SS for Detroit almost a decade ago.

Read your post. You didn't state it as a general rule.

[caulfield12]

Nobody ever answered the question of what GOALPOSTS the White Sox have set for their Latin American development program...

 

Just saw a list of names. How is that helpful to know whether the money invested has been spent wisely or not so far?

 

(Yes, I know, according to Dick Allen, we won't have the full picture until 2019-2022...even though Rick Hahn will likely be long gone by then.)

Edited June 23, 2016 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

Nobody ever answered the question of what GOALPOSTS the White Sox have set for their Latin American development program...

 

Just saw a list of names. How is that helpful to know whether the money invested has been spent wisely or not so far?

 

(Yes, I know, according to Dick Allen, we won't have the full picture until 2019-2022...even though Rick Hahn will likely be long gone by then.)

 

right, and you have the FULL picture on Tim Anderson based on one week of at bats, right?

 

You dont like name lists?

[OmarComing25]

Paulo Orlando isn't even any good, pretty much his entire batting line is being propped up by a ~.500 BABIP right now.

[caulfield12]

right, and you have the FULL picture on Tim Anderson based on one week of at bats, right?

 

You dont like name lists?

 

 

Where did I claim to have the FULL picture on Tim Anderson?

 

There are obviously some concerns still...less on the defensive side than offensively.

 

 

I simply asked what is a REASONABLE goal for our Latin American program? When should we expect to start seeing some positive results at the big league level?

 

Nobody can answer that, apparently.

[Kyyle23]

Where did I claim to have the FULL picture on Tim Anderson?

 

There are obviously some concerns still...less on the defensive side than offensively.

 

 

I simply asked what is a REASONABLE goal for our Latin American program? When should we expect to start seeing some positive results at the big league level?

 

Nobody can answer that, apparently.

 

No, you asked if the money was reasonably invested. How the hell can anyone know that right now?

 

 

f*** ME i was sucked into the caulfield vortex of WTF

 

im out

[Dick Allen]

Where did I claim to have the FULL picture on Tim Anderson?

 

There are obviously some concerns still...less on the defensive side than offensively.

 

 

I simply asked what is a REASONABLE goal for our Latin American program? When should we expect to start seeing some positive results at the big league level?

 

Nobody can answer that, apparently.

Why don't you answer it? You seem to think you have all the answers.

[southsider2k5]

Nobody ever answered the question of what GOALPOSTS the White Sox have set for their Latin American development program...

 

Just saw a list of names. How is that helpful to know whether the money invested has been spent wisely or not so far?

 

(Yes, I know, according to Dick Allen, we won't have the full picture until 2019-2022...even though Rick Hahn will likely be long gone by then.)

 

At this stage the way you know the money is being productive is if kids are leaving the DR, and arriving into minor league ball in the United States. Take a look at the roster of the Arizona team.

[Thad Bosley]

Why don't you answer it? You seem to think you have all the answers.

Don't you just hate people like that, Dick Allen!!

 

[caulfield12]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/colum...625-column.html

 

Paul Sullivan one of the first local Chicago media members to turn the accusing finger at Hahn.

Edited June 26, 2016 by caulfield12