Rick Hahn

[hi8is]

larry southsidesox

‏@SouthSidelarry

According to @baseballpro, which does the best job of calculating catcher value, the difference btw Navarro & Flowers this season is 3 wins.

Owie.

[greg775]

Congrats to Rick Hahn for providing Robin Ventura one of the worst bullpens (minus the back end of Jones and Robertson) in recent Sox memory...at least back to 2007.

 

2014, if you want to go there...but nothing was expected of that team, at all.

Jones is OK, but even he has sucked on occasion. Not flaming him, he's acceptable so far with potential to be really good they tell me.

 

Yeah, at the beginning of the year the pen was on fire.

 

Then Petricka went down. Then Albers lost it. Then Putnam went down.

 

Kinda hard to come through that unscathed.

This is where I disagree. I never liked any of those 3. Albers had one of the great stretches ever but then almost single handedly blew our great 23-10 start. Putnam reeks. Petricka stinks.

[captain54]

I am sure he saw Petricka, Putnam, Kahnle and Webb getting injured.

 

Four names guaranteed to strike fear in the hearts of opposing batsmen

 

Greatest BP quartet in WS history. If not MLB history

 

[harkness99]

larry southsidesox

‏@SouthSidelarry

According to @baseballpro, which does the best job of calculating catcher value, the difference btw Navarro & Flowers this season is 3 wins.

 

Wow... 3 wins is a lot.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Wow... 3 wins is a lot.

 

The fawning over a terrible catcher like Flowers is reaching ridiculous proportions. I don't care how good of a job they do 3 wins is just a total reach.

Edited July 3, 2016 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[GreenSox]

Petricka and Putnam were not high end relievers. Petricka pitched to a WHIP of around 1.4...the good late inning guys are 1.1 or below. Putnam was really good in 2014, but mediocre in other years. Useful guys for the back of the pen.

Duke was signed to be a late inning guy - he's been around 1.3...good player to have in the pen, but not as a top 4.

Nate Jones' WHIP is under .9.

they need a couple of more Jones' and, frankly, it was a wish and a prayer that the Sox would have that this year. But, really, you have to grow some of your own relievers like this...prospects who flame out as starters.

Credit Hahn for signing/extending Jones though....that was big, especially as things have turned out.

Edited July 3, 2016 by GreenSox

[Dick Allen]

Petricka and Putnam were not high end relievers. Petricka pitched to a WHIP of around 1.4...the good late inning guys are 1.1 or below. Putnam was really good in 2014, but mediocre in other years. Useful guys for the back of the pen.

Duke was signed to be a late inning guy - he's been around 1.3...good player to have in the pen, but not as a top 4.

Nate Jones' WHIP is under .9.

they need a couple of more Jones' and, frankly, it was a wish and a prayer that the Sox would have that this year. But, really, you have to grow some of your own relievers like this...prospects who flame out as starters.

Credit Hahn for signing/extending Jones though....that was big, especially as things have turned out.

If Petricka was right he woul really be helpful in the 6th ans 7th. Putnam was fine too. Without those 2 there is a void, especially with Albers not anywhere near where he was last season and the first part of this season. If he can get back there and the Sox get another bullpen guy they should be fine,

[caulfield12]

The problem is that for every Putnam or Albers (good version), there's been a Kelly Downs, Brett Myers, Paulino, Jacob Turner or Belisario.

 

Each one takes up resources that could have gone to better use.

 

Right now, we're going to have to bring in another veteran reliever (RH) if we realistically want to compete the 2nd half...meaning another $2-3 million likely down the drain.

[caulfield12]

If Petricka was right he woul really be helpful in the 6th ans 7th. Putnam was fine too. Without those 2 there is a void, especially with Albers not anywhere near where he was last season and the first part of this season. If he can get back there and the Sox get another bullpen guy they should be fine,

 

 

The Tigers invested a lot of money this offseason into their pen, which has been a chronic problem. The results have been mixed, at best, but better recently.

 

The Indians and Royals have also invested more into developing their pens and bringing in veteran reinforcements (like Dan Otero, Gorzelanny, Manship, Joba Chamberlain or Tommy Hunter, for example).

 

That's five veterans they brought in. Otero, until the 7th yesterday, has pitched exceptionally well.

 

 

Obviously, the White Sox invested money into Robertson and Duke two years ago, but not much since then.

[Dick Allen]

The Tigers invested a lot of money this offseason into their pen, which has been a chronic problem. The results have been mixed, at best, but better recently.

 

The Indians and Royals have also invested more into developing their pens and bringing in veteran reinforcements (like Dan Otero, Gorzelanny, Manship, Joba Chamberlain or Tommy Hunter, for example).

 

That's five veterans they brought in. Otero, until the 7th yesterday, has pitched exceptionally well.

 

 

Obviously, the White Sox invested money into Robertson and Duke two years ago, but not much since then.

Generally, teams that lose a couple of key bullpen pieces to season ending injuries during the season, have to bring in guys from other organizations if they are contending.

 

I don't understand the argument here. The Sox needed to sign 5 guys earlier, but because they didn't they need to trade for another and that is $2-3 million down the drain?

 

Edited July 3, 2016 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

The argument is that they shouldn't have relied on Albers as their ONLY solution for the 6th/7th inning RH set-up guy.

 

There's no reason they couldn't have brought in ONE more veteran...especially as Petricka was very shaky last year, compared to 2014.

 

Jones has worked out as well as expected, and Jennings/Duke. But those 4-5 spots have been a nightmare for Ventura since Albers went south.

 

Webb was never a realistic solution as someone to be counted on. Didn't need five, but they had the money to sign at least one more as insurance (LaRoche's money was freed) and they didn't take advantage.

[Dick Allen]

The argument is that they shouldn't have relied on Albers as their ONLY solution for the 6th/7th inning RH set-up guy.

 

There's no reason they couldn't have brought in ONE more veteran...especially as Petricka was very shaky last year, compared to 2014.

 

Jones has worked out as well as expected, and Jennings/Duke. But those 4-5 spots have been a nightmare for Ventura since Albers went south.

 

Webb was never a realistic solution as someone to be counted on. Didn't need five, but they had the money to sign at least one more as insurance (LaRoche's money was freed) and they didn't take advantage.

They didn't. Petricka and Putnam got hurt. They tried Kahnle.

 

 

[caulfield12]

They didn't. Petricka and Putnam got hurt. They tried Kahnle.

 

Every team in the division has suffered more significant injuries than the White Sox and managed to cover for them.

 

Some teams have lost four All-Stars to the DL.

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2...OWGP/story.html

 

Btw, you'll enjoy this article. Although it does cite one prime example of another managerial change that worked (of course, Robin Ventura isn't "hated" like John McNamara by anyone).

[Dick Allen]

Every team in the division has suffered more significant injuries than the White Sox and managed to cover for them.

 

Some teams have lost four All-Stars to the DL.

 

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/redsox/2...OWGP/story.html

 

Btw, you'll enjoy this article. Although it does cite one prime example of another managerial change that worked (of course, Robin Ventura isn't "hated" like John McNamara by anyone).

Sox are dumb every other team is smart. I get the narrative.

 

If you go back to spring training, no one on this site thought they needed another reliever. Not even you.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

Sox are dumb every other team is smart. I get the narrative.

 

If you go back to spring training, no one on this site thought they needed another reliever. Not even you.

 

If you're not going to make a HUGE change (paying for that bat we've been talking about for months and months now), then you HAVE to make improvements somewhere else, and it's much easier to take a bullpen to excellent from average/below average than it is to gamble on a second-tier hitter (and even guys like Gordon and Upton haven't earned their money).

 

Lawrie was fine for the cost, and Frazier was fine...and they got lucky with Anderson so far...but there was simply no insurance for an outfield injury and no credible alternatives to Avi at DH.

 

Little did anyone realize how much a 660's OPSing CF going down would affect the rest of the team.

 

 

In the end, standing pat with an average bullpen and counting on NO INJURIES and also on Nate Jones making up for anything else going wrong (injuries/non performance) was a big gamble.

 

It's fine, if you have the type of farm system necessary to cover it. Heck, in 2012, they did exactly that, until the final 2 weeks of the season, in fact, and almost none of those pitchers they used were top prospects any longer or highly touted/Top 10 prospect types. Petricka was, at one point, when he was still perceived a start prospect. Jones and Santiago were #8-10 types in the system, if I recall.

Edited July 3, 2016 by caulfield12

[Hatchetman]

Sox are thin at talent everywhere. Supposedly the minors are improving but I don't see much sign of it.

[OmarComing25]

All this talk about how the bullpen has been awful but they're 9th in WAR and ERA in the MLB. You sure like to exaggerate Caulfield. Even if you want to go by WPA the bullpen is still in the top half of the league.

[caulfield12]

All this talk about how the bullpen has been awful but they're 9th in WAR and ERA in the MLB. You sure like to exaggerate Caulfield. Even if you want to go by WPA the bullpen is still in the top half of the league.

 

And how much of that is carried by Jones, Robertson and Albers' first 5-6 weeks?

 

Now we count ERA as an important statistic for bullpens?

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team?stat=pi...&order=true

 

Did you realize only one American League team has more blown saves so far this year? The Mariners are 22/37, the White Sox 25/38 (65.7%). If that's a "good" bullpen in your idea, okay. (Robertson's 22/24, the problem is the rest of the pen is 3/13...where 50% would be expected for the 2-4 set-up guys).

 

DET 24/32=75% much improved after getting through month-long rough patch

KC 20/30=67% Soria has been a lot worse than Madson, Davis has been more human and already blown 2, Herrera still likely to be All-Star

CLE 18/25=72% Allen has two blown saves in 19 opportunities

Edited July 3, 2016 by caulfield12

[GreenSox]

All this talk about how the bullpen has been awful but they're 9th in WAR and ERA in the MLB. You sure like to exaggerate Caulfield. Even if you want to go by WPA the bullpen is still in the top half of the league.

25 in WHIP and 21st in allowing inherited runners to score.

They lack top end guys; Petricka would help the middle/back.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

The Tigers invested a lot of money this offseason into their pen, which has been a chronic problem. The results have been mixed, at best, but better recently.

 

The Indians and Royals have also invested more into developing their pens and bringing in veteran reinforcements (like Dan Otero, Gorzelanny, Manship, Joba Chamberlain or Tommy Hunter, for example).

 

That's five veterans they brought in. Otero, until the 7th yesterday, has pitched exceptionally well.

 

 

Obviously, the White Sox invested money into Robertson and Duke two years ago, but not much since then.

I think Gorzelanny and his 15.00 ERA might be available soon. Hopefully Hahn can bring him in and right a wrong.

 

Edit his ERA is 21.00

Edited July 3, 2016 by Dick Allen

[captain54]

All this talk about how the bullpen has been awful but they're 9th in WAR and ERA in the MLB. You sure like to exaggerate Caulfield. Even if you want to go by WPA the bullpen is still in the top half of the league.

 

The first 5 weeks or so, the BP was stellar. Since then it's been a nightmare. If you are taking a season avg and factoring in the first 5 weeks, you aren't getting an accurate picture

[Bigsoxhurt35]

The Tigers invested a lot of money this offseason into their pen, which has been a chronic problem. The results have been mixed, at best, but better recently.

 

The Indians and Royals have also invested more into developing their pens and bringing in veteran reinforcements (like Dan Otero, Gorzelanny, Manship, Joba Chamberlain or Tommy Hunter, for example).

 

That's five veterans they brought in. Otero, until the 7th yesterday, has pitched exceptionally well.

 

 

Obviously, the White Sox invested money into Robertson and Duke two years ago, but not much since then.

Those Indian arms got waxed today. Lol

 

Indians DFA Chamberlain and Gorzelanny lol

Edited July 4, 2016 by SouthSideSale

[Dick Allen]

Those Indian arms got waxed today. Lol

 

Indians DFA Chamberlain and Gorzelanny lol

LMAO.

[caulfield12]

We all give Hahn credit for Matt Latos and Jimmy Rollins...

 

So Gorzelanny and Joba were simply placeholders in the same vein, and they were effective ENOUGH. The game that Bauer pitched 5 innings that went 18, Chamberlain and Gorzelanny both played huge roles. And they both probably cost about the same as Jacob Turner to sit in Charlotte and get bombed.

 

The fact of the matter is that Clevinger is potentially part of their future and has more upside. Have to applaud the Indians for not resting on their laurels but continuing to find ways to improve their team 1-25.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

We got our use out of Latos and Rollins. Latos hot start helped and Rollins contributed to some wins and held down the fort til Anderson was ready.