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Rick Hahn

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 01:45 PM)
I pretty much agree with your comments. Hahn's big screw-ups were Shields, LaRoche (nobody saw that coming), Sharks (again, nobody saw that coming), and letting Konerko collect too much money while in severe decline. The other moves that he made that didn't work out are far less consequential, IMO.

 

And Shields is the first move Hahn has made where my initial thought was "...this is bad."

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 12:46 PM)
And Shields is the first move Hahn has made where my initial thought was "...this is bad."

 

Exactly. I liked the Samardzija trade but hated the thought of Shields from the get-go.

 

Given that Hahn tends to be rational and measured, I'm wondering if the Shields move was his call or Kenny's.

 

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QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 12:23 PM)
A poster at another Sox web site, compiled a list of positive and negative items in their opinion Hahn has done.

 

I submit it here without comment for discussion purposes since that seems to be a running debate right now.

 

"There are basically 4 things I think Hahn has done well, and 2 of them are contract based.

 

1.) Sale's contract

2.) Quintana's contract

3.) Sign Abreu

4.) Trade for Eaton

 

The rest of his timeline as GM is a mess.

 

1.) Chose Flowers over Pierzynski

2.) Jeff Keppinger for $12 million

3.) Traded Matt Thornton (who was still productive last year and has played in the postseason) for no MLB talent.

4.) Traded Jake Peavy (who went on to contribute for 2 World Series champs) into Avisail Garcia

5.) Traded Alex Rios (who went on to contribute for a World Series champ) into Leury Garcia.

6.) Extended Robin Ventura

7.) Paul Konerko's last 2 years for $16 million

8.) Addison Reed for Matt Davidson

9.) Rushed Rodon to MLB

10.) Traded Dunn, Beckham, and De Aza (2 of the 3 having an impact on postseason games) for no MLB talent

11.) Adam LaRoche for $25 million

12.) Jeff Samardzija for Marcus Semien, Josh Phegley, and $10 million

13.) Melky Cabrera for $42 million

14.) David Robertson for $46 million

15.) Todd Frazier for Trayce Thompson, Micah Johnson, and $16.5 million

16.) Mat Latos

17.) Jimmy Rollins

18.) Waiting at least 2 years too long before releasing John Danks

19.) James Shields for Erik Johnson and $27 million

20.) Has refused to fire the coaching staff.

21.) Spent five million on utility infielders Beckham and Bonifacio who did nothing."

 

Feel free to comment on what you think. I agree with some of the items, disagree with some others.

 

Mark

 

Just a few that jump out at me . . .

 

1. Two evils. I prefer AJ but that is more a 55% 65% choice not an overwhelming mistake.

3. Good move that worked out bad. It looked good at the time.

5. Who didn't want Rios gone? Hell the #1 complaint was he took too long to move him.

7. Probably not his call. Loyalty was repaid.

11. Looked like a win at the time. Everyone was surprised.

 

You make a deal. Usually if the guy performs as expected it's an ok deal. The player performs better than expected the player lost the negotiations and the team won. The player performs worst than expected and the player won the negotiations and the team lost.

 

But I keep coming back to if the guy keeps running into bad luck with these moves, than maybe we need a different guy. William S. Burroughs once said when you hire a lawyer all you buy is his luck. Maybe that's why we hire GMs (Or fire).

 

 

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1.) Chose Flowers over Pierzynski--Tough to say...I think letting AJ go was probably ok since they wanted to get younger at that time...I'm just not sure I would have had Flowers as my primary catcher. Keeping him as the backup would have been fine. He never showed anything other than the occasional pop sandwiched between a massive amount of outs. Everyone talks about his pitch framing, but there were many years that the ball didn't make it to his glove......

 

2.) Jeff Keppinger for $12 million--no way around this...it's just a bad signing. Gotta put some of this on the MLB talent evaluators. Not sure what anyone saw here outside a slightly below replacement utility guy.

 

3.) Traded Matt Thornton (who was still productive last year and has played in the postseason) for no MLB talent. These 3 were all a part of the youth movement. I agree with letting all these guys go. Thornton was the toughest to let go, but how many 70 win teams need a good setup guy? He was worth a lot more to a contender and that's the perfect time to trade an aging bullpen arm.

4.) Traded Jake Peavy (who went on to contribute for 2 World Series champs) into Avisail Garcia

5.) Traded Alex Rios (who went on to contribute for a World Series champ) into Leury Garcia.

 

 

6.) Extended Robin Ventura--this was a "yes man" decision.

 

7.) Paul Konerko's last 2 years for $16 million--this was ALSO a "yes man" decision. JR kept Paulie on for a farewell tour.

 

8.) Addison Reed for Matt Davidson--GREAT trade at the time. No joke. Reed was a lower tier closer for a bad team and Davidson was a pretty respectable prospect. We had no 3rd baseman prospects then...I applauded this move and even though Davidson didn't work out, it showed good thought.

 

9.) Rushed Rodon to MLB--agree. Even though Carlos showed enough last year to get a shot this year and will be very good someday.

 

10.) Traded Dunn, Beckham, and De Aza (2 of the 3 having an impact on postseason games) for no MLB talent: Not sure Dunn or Beckham were ever going to return ANY type of talent!! De Aza showed glimpses of promise with us, but we had Eaton now in CF...it made De Aza expendable.

 

11.) Adam LaRoche for $25 million--Ouch!

 

12.) Jeff Samardzija for Marcus Semien, Josh Phegley, and $10 million: For some reason, Hahn thought we were in win now mode when we still had GAPING holes at 2nd, 3rd, C, RF, 3 rotation spots and 3 bullpen spots (and manager!). But I do see the logic...this team has always been looking for a RH starter to go with Sale, Q and Rodon and at the time...Danks.

 

13.) Melky Cabrera for $42 million--Not a bad signing to find a young proven OFer with speed and pop who could get on base and hit .300+ with 2 different clubs and 2 different leagues. Talent was real, but now he's declined with us like so many have.

 

14.) David Robertson for $46 million--Another head-scratching win-now move. Did it to gain fan support that they were serious about winning. I bet he wishes he had this one back though. The top closer is usually one of the last pieces you add to a great team. You fill the role with serviceable young flame throwers that you already have in your system, until you find the right 40+million dollar guy. (See Cubs.)

 

15.) Todd Frazier for Trayce Thompson, Micah Johnson, and $16.5 million--Gotta give something to get something. Trayce was the only prospect that had shown ANYTHING in the majors. Talent is there, but Hahn used him to fill a decade-long hole at 3rd base with arguably a top 5 3rd baseman in the league with a couple of years of control. Frazier's average is down but his production is there. I think this one is a wash.

 

16.) Mat Latos--this is the thinking that is a little shaky--the next 2 names on your list. The flaw in the thinking is that they cheap and can still play--but the potential is high that they could do more harm than good. I actually think Latos played out for as much as they paid him. He gave us 6 early wins and they cut ties to solidify those wins before all of them were canceled out with L's.

17.) Jimmy Rollins--yeah...come play SS till Anderson gets a few pitches under his belt in AAA. Good intent in the signing, but still...

 

18.) Waiting at least 2 years too long before releasing John Danks--yep...this guy was done awhile ago. Waiting 2 years was to protect the pride of Kenny's large 5-year extension.

 

19.) James Shields for Erik Johnson and $27 million--rolled the dice and lost badly. For now at least... But I'm not sure Erik Johnson was who anyone thought he was--not in a good way.

 

20.) Has refused to fire the coaching staff. Agree...loses piling up every year combined with the same on-field brand of baseball. Not a good combo.

 

21.) Spent five million on utility infielders Beckham and Bonifacio who did nothing. The thinking was...we needed a 2nd baseman. 5 million for 2 MLB players with experience is not that bad of a loss. Beckham was great defensively as always, and Bonificio just didn't pan out at all.

 

So yeah...a mixed bag of thoughts about some of these negatives. Great list though--lots of conversation starters!

 

 

 

 

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 12:33 PM)
9.) Rushed Rodon to MLB Rodon is doing just fine for a softmore

 

what's a "softmore"

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Easy to cherry pick the "woulda coulda shoulda". A pattern I see is veteran NL talent seems to be a failure. Eaton didn't spend that long in the NL. The book isn't shut on Frazier. I still think he will be better next season. The only thing that translates between the NL and AL is if you are really bad at baseball.

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That's a pretty bad list. Over half of the negatives weren't really negatives at all, were washes, or were just overall meh moves for very little $. Also several moves the jury is still out. Besides Semien, he hasn't given up much talent, and I happen to think Trayce will coming crashing back to earth before too long.

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QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 12:23 PM)
"There are basically 4 things I think Hahn has done well, and 2 of them are contract based.

 

I will never in a million years be convinced that Hahn is totally responsible for every of the moves mentioned……pro and con…

 

I believe his role in the organization is specifically defined, rest assured all of these moves are not contingent upon his final approval….

 

Nobody really knows what goes on behind closed doors.. However, in the 2011 reality series "The Show".. they took a look behind the scenes, when the Sox were dealing for Edwin Jackson… there was JR, at the table..taking in all of the info……and in essence, making the final decision...

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 02:20 PM)
what's a "softmore"

 

The later part of a Now&Later.

 

Otherwise, I f***ing hate autocorrect.

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QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 02:00 PM)
The later part of a Now&Later.

 

Otherwise, I f***ing hate autocorrect.

 

I see.. I was going to take you to task for trying to spell.. "Sophomore"

 

glad I waited for your response.. LOL.

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QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 08:52 AM)
I think Nick Hostetler is a prime counter argument to you. Hahn is building up his staff, remember how loyal this org is, it'll take time to get his people in.

 

Yes, and Marco Paddy.

 

On the other hand, Buddy Bell sucks at his job, was a terrible big league manager and personally vouched for Mark Teahen. What do we do for all this success, we give him a promotion. Other than blind loyalty, I can't see what he has done well or effectively, at all.

 

KW loses his magic touch, is failing as a GM, we make him an executive VP. Then we block him from going to Toronto because JR has a "Thibs" moment when he finds out that his friend Paul Beeston is secretly trying to bring KW on board. Ironically, Beeston is now one of the execs being mentioned (by Margalus, at least) as a possible KW/Hahn successor. AA is the GM we should target, not Beeston as another "exec" who simply isn't prepared for modern baseball analysis and the quant movement...he's a dinosaur, outdated.

 

Laumann isn't successful at drafting with a few notable exceptions like Chris Sale, we keep him on in the organization regardless.

 

How has keeping three "failed" execs around been positive for the franchise in any way, shape or form? They just muddy the waters and make it harder for their successes to do their job effectively when everyone's competing for JR's ear.

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 03:03 PM)
Yes, and Marco Paddy.

 

On the other hand, Buddy Bell sucks at his job, was a terrible big league manager and personally vouched for Mark Teahen. What do we do for all this success, we give him a promotion. Other than blind loyalty, I can't see what he has done well or effectively, at all.

 

KW loses his magic touch, is failing as a GM, we make him an executive VP. Then we block him from going to Toronto because JR has a "Thibs" moment when he finds out that his friend Paul Beeston is secretly trying to bring KW on board. Ironically, Beeston is now one of the execs being mentioned (by Margalus, at least) as a possible KW/Hahn successor. AA is the GM we should target, not Beeston as another "exec" who simply isn't prepared for modern baseball analysis and the quant movement...he's a dinosaur, outdated.

 

Laumann isn't successful at drafting with a few notable exceptions like Chris Sale, we keep him on in the organization regardless.

 

How has keeping three "failed" execs around been positive for the franchise in any way, shape or form? They just muddy the waters and make it harder for their successes to do their job effectively when everyone's competing for JR's ear.

Paul Beeston had nothing to do with KW to Toronto. It was happening behind Beeston's back. Laumann is still involved with the White Sox draft. I don't think he was removed because they were unhappy with him. They have drafted pretty decently his last few drafts. But Laumann is getting older, scouting is difficult, and Hostetler was ready to be in charge.

Edited by Dick Allen

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QUOTE (captain54 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 03:04 PM)
I see.. I was going to take you to task for trying to spell.. "Sophomore"

 

glad I waited for your response.. LOL.

 

I appreciate it :lol:

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Hahn is woefully over his head when signing players and evaluating talent. Maybe he doesn't have the scouting staff, yada yada yada. Yea he signed Sale and Q to good contracts, acquired Abreu and Eaton, but that's where the good news stops. From $10 million to Keppinger to Laroche, to Frazier, the returns have been dismal. He shares the long-time whitesox preference of bad and declining veterans over young players.

He speaks like he's intelligent, and I'm sure he is...but he's a poor GM.

I'm just praying that he makes zero moves for the rest of the season (although I'm sure he's just lining up 4 or 5 prospects to trade for Jay Bruce).

Edited by GreenSox

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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/base...rticle21984335/

 

I should have replayed the SSS podcast because it wasn't clear the way it was explained.

 

At any rate, as Beeston's close friend, JR blocked KW going because it would have undermined Beeston or pushed him out of day-to-day franchise operations....although it seems like he had an opportunity to quickly go to Boston or could join the White Sox at any time (loyalty, lifelong friend of JR, etc.)

 

Why we would want to bring someone more known for the 1992-93 Jays' teams and less associated with the modern running of a franchise....is pretty much the same reason KW gave for hiring Ozzie over the much more experienced and 2X World Series-winning Cito Gaston. Just what we need....more cooks in the kitchen, more valuable resources not allocated into coaching/development/talent evaluation.

 

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 03:13 PM)
Hahn is woefully over his head when signing players and evaluating talent. Maybe he doesn't have the scouting staff, yada yada yada. But his record is utterly inept. Yea he signed Sale and Q to good contracts, acquired Abreu and Eaton, but that's where the good news stops. From $10 million to Keppinger to Laroche, to Frazier, the returns have been dismal.

He speaks like he's intelligent, and I'm sure he is...but he's a poor GM.

I'm just praying that he makes zero moves for the rest of the season (although I'm sure he's just lining up 4 or 5 prospects to trade for Jay Bruce).

Theo gave $52 million to Edwin Jackson. He gave over $100 million to Carl Crawford. He supposedly is a genius. Hahn has had a ton of guys not work out, and IMO the verdict is still out with him. But when you are signing guys at the price level he is signing them, many are not going to work out.

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 03:17 PM)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/base...rticle21984335/

 

I should have replayed the SSS podcast because it wasn't clear the way it was explained.

 

At any rate, as Beeston's close friend, JR blocked KW going because it would have undermined Beeston or pushed him out of day-to-day franchise operations....although it seems like he had an opportunity to quickly go to Boston or could join the White Sox at any time (loyalty, lifelong friend of JR, etc.)

 

Why we would want to bring someone more known for the 1992-93 Jays' teams and less associated with the modern running of a franchise....is pretty much the same reason KW gave for hiring Ozzie over the much more experienced and 2X World Series-winning Cito Gaston. Just what we need....more cooks in the kitchen, more valuable resources not allocated into coaching/development/talent evaluation.

Beeston is more involved with the business side of things than actual player evaluation. He's an accountant. He may evaluate and hire a GM, but he didn't make trades.

Edited by Dick Allen

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That's why it's impossible to compare Epstein with the Red Sox/Cubs vs. let's say, Terry Ryan of the Twins OR Friedman with the Rays vs. the Dodgers today.

 

They have the financial leeway to take risks that they would never dream of taking on for budget-conscious teams. Look at Sandoval, Hanley Ramirez, Porcello (much better this year) and Rusney Castillo for just four recent examples of moves that a White Sox GM could/would never make. Moncada, same thing.

 

Same reason why judging Brian Cashman has always been equally difficult.

 

Would Dave Dombrowski be able to win with a "small market" team today? At least you have his time with the Marlins to assess that, although the evidence is contradictory.

 

Do we give GM's more credit for getting maximum return on resources available/ROI or simply does getting to the playoffs or winning the World Series trump all? Brian Sabean always was a "middle tier"-rated GM, but how can he NOT be ranked as one of the 5-7 best now with the Giants' track record in the post-season?

Edited by caulfield12

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QUOTE (Footlongcomiskeydog @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 12:20 PM)
This times a thousand. Hahn is a privileged dude from Winnetka who has been in over his head as a GM since day one. He is most likely a very smart dude, but his results as a GM are pretty terrible.

This times a million, no evidence he has the baseball background to have this work. A Harvard educated guy from Winnetka sounds like a perfect fit for the Bears front office, not baseball. If you're doing the 'young genius' concept, you'd better have a payroll like Boston or the Fubs (sorry Theo, pretty easy to look good with an endless bank account). If you're crafting a team for the business minded JR, you'd better be lucky ('05) or talented. Hahn is neither....

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I wonder why so many of the players the Sox have acquired have underperformed once they got here.

 

Even the great guys like Abreu are no longer pulling their weight.

 

When has Todd Frazier ever been a .198 hitter?

 

Even Eaton just totally stunk it up at the beginning of last season. Same with Melky for most of last season.

 

This strikes me as the MAJOR problem for the White Sox. On paper, the Hahn moves have not been so bad if the players he acquired performed to projections.

 

I mean, when has David Robertson ever blown a 7-1 lead in the 9th inning?

 

It's just bizarre what has happened.

 

The topper, of course, is the James Shields acquisition. The guy has been a horse for years. 200 innings could be counted on. Not a top notch guy any longer, but you would think he'd be a plus as a 4th or 5th starter. Yet he's looking like one of the most spectacular flame outs in major league history.

 

BIZARRE.

Edited by VAfan

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QUOTE (VAfan @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:37 PM)
I wonder why so many of the players the Sox have acquired have underperformed once they got here.

 

Even the great guys like Abreu are no longer pulling their weight.

 

When has Todd Frazier ever been a .198 hitter?

 

Even Eaton just totally stunk it up at the beginning of last season. Same with Melky for most of last season.

 

This strikes me as the MAJOR problem for the White Sox. On paper, the Hahn moves have not been so bad if the players he acquired performed to projections.

 

I mean, when has David Robertson ever blown a 7-1 lead in the 9th inning?

 

It's just bizarre what has happened.

 

The topper, of course, is the James Shields acquisition. The guy has been a horse for years. 200 innings could be counted on. Not a top notch guy any longer, but you would think he'd be a plus as a 4th or 5th starter. Yet he's looking like one of the most spectacular flame outs in major league history.

 

BIZARRE.

 

the MLB coaching staff is bottom 1/3 in the league that's why. Probably bottom 5.

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QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:39 PM)
the MLB coaching staff is bottom 1/3 in the league that's why. Probably bottom 5.

I don't think MLB staffs have much of an impact on veteran MLB players, the most impact they have is on the environment around the guys but for the most part the vets have their own hitting coaches, etc.

 

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 03:18 PM)
Theo gave $52 million to Edwin Jackson. He gave over $100 million to Carl Crawford. He supposedly is a genius. Hahn has had a ton of guys not work out, and IMO the verdict is still out with him. But when you are signing guys at the price level he is signing them, many are not going to work out.

I didn't realize that pushing everyone to get off the "KW is the cause of all evil" for the White sox would turn to "Hahn is the cause of all evil." I guess people still don't get that they work TOGETHER.

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QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 04:05 PM)
I didn't realize that pushing everyone to get off the "KW is the cause of all evil" for the White sox would turn to "Hahn is the cause of all evil." I guess people still don't get that they work TOGETHER.

 

 

Everyone is exhausted talking about Ventura...and this whole Shields debacle (so far) has almost forced everyone to start looking up higher on the food chain.

 

JR is the only one who knows who was the biggest advocate and pushed the hardest for Shields. Maybe KW, maybe Hahn...I doubt it was 50/50 an equal presentation from both execs when they made that pitch to JR.

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