Jose Abreu

[ronkark]

Let's talk about our star first baseman. I am over him. Forget about the offense for a second. His defense is AWFUL. Not average. Not so-so. AWFUL. 3 times tonight the ball either went off his glove or an inch above or below. Doubles instead of outs. Not errors but very makeable plays. I'm tired of it. The dude's bad. I don't care if Morneau has half an arm - put him out there twice a week. OR even better, and like I've said before. Put Frazier at 1st and start Saladino at 3rd. Saladino is actually a good player. He makes us better at D at 3rd and 1st with that move. Frazier is not amazing but at least he has basic reflexes and can stop some of those doubles from being doubles.

 

Now let's go to offense. I don't care how many times Jason Beneti says he's showing signs of breaking out becaue that's what the game notes say - he is now and has not. No homers in 5 weeks. Walk numbers are awful. Sense of strike zone is awful. The guy doesn not adjust. And guess what - he's not young either. So we have a doughy one dimensional DH playing 1b and that one dimension is not even working.

 

That's a below WAR player and if he's in the middle of our lineup and highest paid - that's a problem.

[hi8is]

Hi Ron,

 

I regret opening this thread.

 

Best Regards,

-me

[greg775]

He's proven he cannot get the glove down and go to his left toward the line on grounders. He's still okay on digging throws I believe (albeit I haven't watched many games lately). But in the last couple games I've tuned into it seems he butchers ground balls. I didn't realize he has no homers in five weeks. That's absurd.

Edited July 26, 2016 by greg775

[Flash Tizzle]

I watch Abreu's AB and just think, it'd be much easier for him to get out of his slump if he literally walked up to the plate and did NOTHING. Can't swing out of the zone when you don't move the bat. Force pitchers to throw strikes, because as it is there's no reason for anyone to ever throw a strike.

 

As for his defensive issues, they were on full display tonight. As greg mentioned, he is atrocious moving to his left. At this rate, may as well have him play toward the line; especially with LH hitters who have pull tendencies

[Y2Jimmy0]

Abreu has been the biggest issue on the team all year. Not Robin. Not bad catchers. Not the bullpen. If Abreu were having his typical season, the Sox would be in this thing and adding reinforcements for a playoff run. He's been terrible.

[Lemon_44]

Didn't the Sox have a doughy, one dimensional DH playing 1B that just went to HOF a couple years ago?

[lasttriptotulsa]

Yes, we all know that Abreu is having a tough year. We don't need a new f***ing thread every couple days about it.

[Panerista]

Yes, we all know that Abreu is having a tough year. We don't need a new f***ing thread every couple days about it.

I heard Abreu is having a tough year. Have you heard that yet?

[ChiSox59]

Jose has been disappointing, no doubt about it. But even the 2016 version is an above average bat making below average salary for a 1B. He's been a problem because we expected him to be better, but Jose is not THE problem with this team. I would be down with him DHing a bit more often, his glove seems to have gotten worse.

[Panerista]

Jose has been disappointing, no doubt about it. But even the 2016 version is an above average bat making below average salary for a 1B. He's been a problem because we expected him to be better, but Jose is not THE problem with this team. I would be down with him DHing a bit more often, his glove seems to have gotten worse.

Jose in his current state accentuates the bigger issues with this team, but I agree he's not responsible for the lion share of the problem.

[ronkark]

I don't get the reluctance to DH him a few times a week. Why not to protect his ego? As much as I hated LaRoche one of his biggest assets was his D and even though Robin said he'd get time out there, he barely did. DH Abreu. It kicks Garcia out of lineup. You can have him play first when Morneau DHs if Morneau really can't play D right now.

 

And the second part of this point is get Saladino in the linuep more often. Not every day but the fact it took Lawrie getting hurt to EVER spell him at 2nd - ridiculous. Saladino should get 1 start at 2nd, SS and 3rd per week.

 

As for Abreu's bat, not that I'm comparing, but Frank Thomas the last few years of his career was getting jammed left and right and never adjusted. Never moved his stance because he figured he was already a a HOF. And he was. But his descent happened faster than it needed to because of ego and stubbornness. ABreu has not heard the right to not adjust to a league who has adjusted to him.

[lasttriptotulsa]

As for Abreu's bat, not that I'm comparing, but Frank Thomas the last few years of his career was getting jammed left and right and never adjusted. Never moved his stance because he figured he was already a a HOF. And he was. But his descent happened faster than it needed to because of ego and stubbornness. ABreu has not heard the right to not adjust to a league who has adjusted to him.

 

The only cause of descent in Frank Thomas's career was injury. Had he not had multiple season ending injuries he more than likely would have finished with over 600 homers and 2000 RBIs. Watch early Frank Thomas and late career Frank Thomas and they absolutely did not have the same stance. Early on he stood straight up. Pitchers started trying to jam him inside. He then opened up his stance and went more into a crouch and became more of a pull hitter. Your assertion that he didn't adjust his stance because he figured he was already a HOFer proves you know nothing of Frank Thomas. He was obsessed with his stats and would do whatever he had to do to keep them up. For f*** sake the man finished 4th in MVP voting at age f***ing 38 coming off another season where he had a major season ending injury.

[ptatc]

The only cause of descent in Frank Thomas's career was injury. Had he not had multiple season ending injuries he more than likely would have finished with over 600 homers and 2000 RBIs. Watch early Frank Thomas and late career Frank Thomas and they absolutely did not have the same stance. Early on he stood straight up. Pitchers started trying to jam him inside. He then opened up his stance and went more into a crouch and became more of a pull hitter. Your assertion that he didn't adjust his stance because he figured he was already a HOFer proves you know nothing of Frank Thomas. He was obsessed with his stats and would do whatever he had to do to keep them up. For f*** sake the man finished 4th in MVP voting at age f***ing 38 coming off another season where he had a major season ending injury.

The biggest issue was the fracture of his navicular in the front foot. Prior to the injury he would load all of his weight to the front foot. After the injury he couldn't. That is why he had to change his stance. It effected his running too. Look at the number of doubles prior to and after the injury. He basically became a singles or HR hitter (with fewer HR due to the change) because of the injury.

[greg775]

his glove seems to have gotten worse.

I agree. That's alarming.

[Greg Hibbard]

Only the most dedicated of pessimists can find real reasons to complain about a guy hitting .320 in July.

 

Oh, and he's on pace for more walks than last year. If you liked his numbers last year, why are you complaining about his walk totals?

 

Yes, he has hit no homers recently. Yes, he's made some defensive gaffes. Ok. Those things can happen from time to time.

 

Abreu is definitely, absolutely, positively, not the problem with this team. Not even close. He's 20 points shy of his career average and having a power slump that would be corrected by a good WEEK of homers.

 

Back away from the ledge, people

Edited July 26, 2016 by Greg Hibbard

[Hatchetman]

Supposing they trade Q and/or Sale, I wouldn't mind getting a good 1B prospect back and putting Abreu at DH permanently.

[ronkark]

The only cause of descent in Frank Thomas's career was injury. Had he not had multiple season ending injuries he more than likely would have finished with over 600 homers and 2000 RBIs. Watch early Frank Thomas and late career Frank Thomas and they absolutely did not have the same stance. Early on he stood straight up. Pitchers started trying to jam him inside. He then opened up his stance and went more into a crouch and became more of a pull hitter. Your assertion that he didn't adjust his stance because he figured he was already a HOFer proves you know nothing of Frank Thomas. He was obsessed with his stats and would do whatever he had to do to keep them up. For f*** sake the man finished 4th in MVP voting at age f***ing 38 coming off another season where he had a major season ending injury.

 

Really? You're putting it on injuries? Yes his stance was different than in his first year or two but for the last decade plus he was the same and never moved. Hawk talked about it all the time. In 2000 he hit .328. In the next EIGHT years, he never topped .277. Injuries you say? 4 of those seasons he had around 600 at bats.

[ronkark]

Only the most dedicated of pessimists can find real reasons to complain about a guy hitting .320 in July.

 

Oh, and he's on pace for more walks than last year. If you liked his numbers last year, why are you complaining about his walk totals?

 

Yes, he has hit no homers recently. Yes, he's made some defensive gaffes. Ok. Those things can happen from time to time.

 

Abreu is definitely, absolutely, positively, not the problem with this team. Not even close. He's 20 points shy of his career average and having a power slump that would be corrected by a good WEEK of homers.

 

Back away from the ledge, people

 

And only the most blind optimist would ignore his EIGHT RBIs in July. From a guy in the middle of your lineup. His least productive month of a poor season.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Jose in his current state accentuates the bigger issues with this team, but I agree he's not responsible for the lion share of the problem.

[/quote

 

Yes he is. He needed to be a star for this team to compete. He needed to be what he's been. It's not good enough and it's absolutely the main issue. It's a much different team with the Abreu that everyone expected on it.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Really? You're putting it on injuries? Yes his stance was different than in his first year or two but for the last decade plus he was the same and never moved. Hawk talked about it all the time. In 2000 he hit .328. In the next EIGHT years, he never topped .277. Injuries you say? 4 of those seasons he had around 600 at bats.

 

Boy, oh boy. Where do I begin?

 

1. Once you start citing batting average and RBIs without context as relevant stats you have lost all credibility

 

2. If you don't think that the multiple foot, ankle, leg, hip and triceps injuries helped lead to Frank's decline you are clueless. Not to mention that the seasons you are talking about his declining batting average occurred in his mid to late thirties

 

3. The only full relatively healthy seasons Frank had after 2000 were in 2002 (still recovering from tricep injury), 2003, 2006 (still recovering from ankle injury) and 2007. In those seasons he put up wRC+s of 119, 147, 139 and 127. In 2004 before his injury he was a potential MVP candidate and put up a 157 wRC+ and overall put up a 131 wRC+ from 2001 onward. For reference, Konerko only once in his career managed to reach the 147 wRC+ that an injury riddle 35 year old Frank Thomas managed and only 5 times reached the 131 mark.

 

4. Watch these clips and tell me that Frank never changed his stance

 

1990 - 22 years old. First career homer. Stance fully closed, slight crouch. Hrniak influence not fully present yet.

 

 

1995 - 27 years old. Prime of his career. Standing straight up. Hitting off the front foot, back foot comes off the ground. Hrniak influence very clear.

 

 

2003 - 35 years old. 400th homer. Stance much more open. Front foot up on his toe. Goes into a slight crouch as the pitcher winds up. This allowed him to adjust better to the inside pitch which he had issues with earlier in his career. Strictly a pull hitter at this point.

 

 

2007 - 39 years old. 500th homer. Stance even more open than 2003. In a very full crouch from the onset.

 

[Greg Hibbard]

And only the most blind optimist would ignore his EIGHT RBIs in July. From a guy in the middle of your lineup. His least productive month of a poor season.

 

I'd like to hear your take on Paul Konerko's 2003 season and his value overall as a player for this organization.

 

Sorry, I'm just a realist who knows .295 hitters occasionally have bad months or even "bad half seasons" - christ, if that's what we're calling this.

 

somehow I'm pretty fine with him hitting .276 even with garbage power numbers, because I expect him to have 30-40 homer seasons regularly in the future.

 

This isn't some Gordon Beckham type dropoff. He just had a s*** April and hasn't hit homers.

[Hatchetman]

hold up now. are we really comparing Abreu to Frank Thomas? LOL.

 

Abreu could be 37 years old for all we know. He's had one good year in the majors. Expecting him to repeat 2014 looks less and less likely with every passing month.

[OmarComing25]

hold up now. are we really comparing Abreu to Frank Thomas? LOL.

 

Abreu could be 37 years old for all we know. He's had one good year in the majors. Expecting him to repeat 2014 looks less and less likely with every passing month.

2015 was also a good year, let's not sell him short. I think everyone would be fine if he could repeat last years' numbers.

[Greg Hibbard]

hold up now. are we really comparing Abreu to Frank Thomas? LOL.

 

Abreu could be 37 years old for all we know. He's had one good year in the majors. Expecting him to repeat 2014 looks less and less likely with every passing month.

 

Omg. With every passing month? Seriously, wtf.

 

He's hitting .325 in July and has a combined OPS for June and July of about .840

 

His career OPS is .868.

 

 

[Hatchetman]

I agree everyone would be "fine."