LDF Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 every since Scott B, the sports agent, came into baseball and the sox lost out on Alex Fernandez and Bobby Seay, the baseball world was on the players side somewhat. its the old David vs Goliath story with the baseball org as Goliath. now let see modern day with Rodon, I am just as happy we got a very good young prospect to help the sox org, and the sox even went overslot to get him. now comes hou and their maneuvering which failed miserable, now everyone in baseball sports forum and sports site is chastising the org for screwing up. many are on Aiken side and rightful so. so let me put it this way. Baseball is both a business and a sports and should not be confuse. on the business side, the org has to deal with advisors/agents and the big bosses created the draft with slot money for signing bonuses. this was to help curb the ability of the agent somewhat and give what they believe a good bonus on the slot they were drafted. however, players can sign for more or less. the sox as an example had to go over slot by +/- 15 % to sign him. if not then the sox would have lost the pick this yr with all the bonus money till next yr. ok I am with that then why couldn't hou offer 90% of the allotted money and says sign or go back to school, which they did. so why is hou wrong. taking their stupidity of the injury out of the equation. you can use any team for this example, but why is the team wrong for using the same tact that sports agents being for yrs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Bottom line, Houston didn't like examination of the player they couldn't examine until after he was drafted. Needs to run more like the NFL Combine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Didnt Fernandez blow out his arm shortly after he left the Sox? Seems like Scott B was a blessing in disguise there. And Bobby Seay certainly didnt merit all of the craziness in his career as a reliever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 21, 2014 -> 03:37 PM) every since Scott B, the sports agent, came into baseball and the sox lost out on Alex Fernandez and Bobby Seay, the baseball world was on the players side somewhat. its the old David vs Goliath story with the baseball org as Goliath. now let see modern day with Rodon, I am just as happy we got a very good young prospect to help the sox org, and the sox even went overslot to get him. now comes hou and their maneuvering which failed miserable, now everyone in baseball sports forum and sports site is chastising the org for screwing up. many are on Aiken side and rightful so. so let me put it this way. Baseball is both a business and a sports and should not be confuse. on the business side, the org has to deal with advisors/agents and the big bosses created the draft with slot money for signing bonuses. this was to help curb the ability of the agent somewhat and give what they believe a good bonus on the slot they were drafted. however, players can sign for more or less. the sox as an example had to go over slot by +/- 15 % to sign him. if not then the sox would have lost the pick this yr with all the bonus money till next yr. ok I am with that then why couldn't hou offer 90% of the allotted money and says sign or go back to school, which they did. so why is hou wrong. taking their stupidity of the injury out of the equation. you can use any team for this example, but why is the team wrong for using the same tact that sports agents being for yrs. They are wrong because of they're shady dealings with the injury. It's like saying John Wayne Gacy was an OK person other than all those people he killed. Also, they give power to the players because they have absolutely no leverage upon signing and they work as individual proprietors for their services while the MLB teams are absolutely stacked with cash. Frankly, I think Boras has been very admirable throughout this process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 QUOTE (TRU @ Jul 21, 2014 -> 03:42 PM) Bottom line, Houston didn't like examination of the player they couldn't examine until after he was drafted. Needs to run more like the NFL Combine. I agree with this as well. Invite the top 300 or so prospects, run them through some sort of gauntlet (if they so choose). It'd be nice if they did it in the offseason too, but there are so many leagues always going on that these guys can participate in that it gets difficult to address that type of thing. It would be nice if they did it in August or September though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 21, 2014 -> 03:37 PM) every since Scott B, the sports agent, came into baseball and the sox lost out on Alex Fernandez and Bobby Seay, the baseball world was on the players side somewhat. its the old David vs Goliath story with the baseball org as Goliath. now let see modern day with Rodon, I am just as happy we got a very good young prospect to help the sox org, and the sox even went overslot to get him. now comes hou and their maneuvering which failed miserable, now everyone in baseball sports forum and sports site is chastising the org for screwing up. many are on Aiken side and rightful so. so let me put it this way. Baseball is both a business and a sports and should not be confuse. on the business side, the org has to deal with advisors/agents and the big bosses created the draft with slot money for signing bonuses. this was to help curb the ability of the agent somewhat and give what they believe a good bonus on the slot they were drafted. however, players can sign for more or less. the sox as an example had to go over slot by +/- 15 % to sign him. if not then the sox would have lost the pick this yr with all the bonus money till next yr. ok I am with that then why couldn't hou offer 90% of the allotted money and says sign or go back to school, which they did. so why is hou wrong. taking their stupidity of the injury out of the equation. you can use any team for this example, but why is the team wrong for using the same tact that sports agents being for yrs. The Sox didn't lose out on Alex Fernandez. He signed, and spent nearly six years with the club, until he was almost a free agent, and was traded to SF in the White Flag trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clyons Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 21, 2014 -> 03:57 PM) The Sox didn't lose out on Alex Fernandez. He signed, and spent nearly six years with the club, until he was almost a free agent, and was traded to SF in the White Flag trade. No. He signed with Florida as a free agent and was not a part of that trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 21, 2014 -> 03:57 PM) The Sox didn't lose out on Alex Fernandez. He signed, and spent nearly six years with the club, until he was almost a free agent, and was traded to SF in the White Flag trade. Alex Fernandez, not Wilson Alvarez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 Alex Fernandez with the sox in 96, marlins 97 and injury 98.... ok, it seem as everyone is focusing on the hou attempt of trickery. lets use a different player and a different org. the org used only used 90% of the allotted signing bonus and was playing hardball. the player didn't sign and went back to school. would the team been blasted or would you blast the team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 21, 2014 -> 04:00 PM) Alex Fernandez, not Wilson Alvarez. Bah. Yeah. Anyways, Bobby Hill was the other guy the Sox lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 21, 2014 -> 04:20 PM) Bah. Yeah. Anyways, Bobby Hill was the other guy the Sox lost. Jeff Weaver too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 21, 2014 -> 04:11 PM) Alex Fernandez with the sox in 96, marlins 97 and injury 98.... ok, it seem as everyone is focusing on the hou attempt of trickery. lets use a different player and a different org. the org used only used 90% of the allotted signing bonus and was playing hardball. the player didn't sign and went back to school. would the team been blasted or would you blast the team? Not agreeing on a contract is not the same thing as what happened here. The team had a mutual agreement with the player of a contract around 6.5 million. The Astros are changing the terms of the contract because of a perceived chance of injury to a non injured ligament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Not to mention they tried to mitigate that risk by allocating it across three players...which seemed logical, but not when you take into consideration that Aiken and Nix were friends/UCLA commits and advised by the same "agent" in Close, one of the best in the business. There were even rumors that Marshall was going in a package deal to UCLA along with Nix and Aiken and was going back on his earlier LSU commit. In that situation, Nix and Aiken were always going to be at cross-purposes. Less money to Aiken was what got Nix to $1.5 million, but cost Brady. $6.5-8.0 million to Aiken, and there's no way that the Astros can offer Nix and Marshall, so they would have been forced to sign at slot or under. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 21, 2014 -> 10:40 PM) Not agreeing on a contract is not the same thing as what happened here. The team had a mutual agreement with the player of a contract around 6.5 million. The Astros are changing the terms of the contract because of a perceived chance of injury to a non injured ligament. good points by all, if I may, I like to add another snippet. Arod, Alex F, Bobby S all had a verbal agreement with the sox by Scott B, Scott B then went to another team and told them to either beat it or they will sign with the sox. well to hell with the verbal commitment they signed with the other team. same thing, a mutual agreement didn't mean anything to Scott B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 21, 2014 -> 10:40 PM) good points by all, if I may, I like to add another snippet. Arod, Alex F, Bobby S all had a verbal agreement with the sox by Scott B, Scott B then went to another team and told them to either beat it or they will sign with the sox. well to hell with the verbal commitment they signed with the other team. same thing, a mutual agreement didn't mean anything to Scott B. No, it is not the same thing. The White Sox and ARod, Fernandez, and Seay did not have a mutually agreed upon contract. Boras was trying to find the best deal for his free agents(ARod and Fernandez), and the White Sox and Seay did not agree upon a contract before the deadline after he was drafted and he became a free agent. I know you don't like Boras, but the above statement is painted with a very broad brush and is not correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Boras has always been a very good agent who always gets the very most for his clients and absolutely refuses to break the rules. He's an incredible agent who is not friendly to the hometown team. As a young boy, I hated Boras. As I've grown older, I've come to respect what Boras does for his clients, and in the past few years, I've really grown to admire him. [in the next few, I will actually begin to morph into Scott Boras, and he and I will run the company "Boras Brothers in Space," where we actually make pizza in space and deliver it internationally. Delivery times are expected to take 1-8 hours, depending upon the position of the earth] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 22, 2014 -> 08:13 AM) Boras has always been a very good agent who always gets the very most for his clients and absolutely refuses to break the rules. He's an incredible agent who is not friendly to the hometown team. As a young boy, I hated Boras. As I've grown older, I've come to respect what Boras does for his clients, and in the past few years, I've really grown to admire him. [in the next few, I will actually begin to morph into Scott Boras, and he and I will run the company "Boras Brothers in Space," where we actually make pizza in space and deliver it internationally. Delivery times are expected to take 1-8 hours, depending upon the position of the earth] Pizza's delivered with 99.999% accuracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 22, 2014 -> 08:23 AM) Pizza's delivered with 99.9999% accuracy fixed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Ultimately, Boras' antics with Seay, Hill, Weaver, even young Alex, saved JR from spending a decent amount of money on players that were extremely mediocre or were about to be hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 well, I would like to thank those who posted either for or against. many thanks in closing, what I wanted to point out is, baseball org were always taken advantage by others in in the sox case, jr was always above board. I wanted to point out, why not, why couldn't the owners play hardball, they the owners will lose their advantage when they become free agents. now, what came across with my examples (poor one at that) is I was defending HOU and my dislike for Scott B. while I do dislike Scott B and the way he does business, I was trying to us him and examples of what he was behind in the sox dealings as the example. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 I think the compensation pick the next season should be determined by the percentage of slot you ultimately offer. If they offer him 40% slot and he doesn't sign, your compensation isn't the second pick in the draft, but a 3rd rounder. You offer 90% slot, you get the 2nd pick. Something like that. If it's true Houston upped their offer to $5 million with 5 minutes left until the deadline, and were shocked at no response, that's just crazy. Ultimately what they initially agreed to and the 40% slot financially is the price of a slightly better than replacement level player for one season. While it's a lot of money to me and most people, in baseball it's basically nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 22, 2014 -> 02:06 PM) well, I would like to thank those who posted either for or against. many thanks in closing, what I wanted to point out is, baseball org were always taken advantage by others in in the sox case, jr was always above board. I wanted to point out, why not, why couldn't the owners play hardball, they the owners will lose their advantage when they become free agents. now, what came across with my examples (poor one at that) is I was defending HOU and my dislike for Scott B. while I do dislike Scott B and the way he does business, I was trying to us him and examples of what he was behind in the sox dealings as the example. thanks It's kind of like comparing a torts lawyer and a Fortune 500 corporation. Of course, they are often going to be diametrically opposed in their positions. That's what provides the checks and balances, preventing one side or the other from becoming too powerful, along with the MLBPA. To say that the White Sox deserve sympathy for having to deal with Scott Borases of the world, that would be going too far. The Sox are valued somewhere in the $700-850 million vicinity. Nobody should be crying too much for them. Edited July 24, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 24, 2014 -> 01:09 PM) I think the compensation pick the next season should be determined by the percentage of slot you ultimately offer. If they offer him 40% slot and he doesn't sign, your compensation isn't the second pick in the draft, but a 3rd rounder. You offer 90% slot, you get the 2nd pick. Something like that. If it's true Houston upped their offer to $5 million with 5 minutes left until the deadline, and were shocked at no response, that's just crazy. Ultimately what they initially agreed to and the 40% slot financially is the price of a slightly better than replacement level player for one season. While it's a lot of money to me and most people, in baseball it's basically nothing. I think HOU upped their offer so as to not loose the pick on their misdealing. again it was covering themselves just in case they were screwed. question, if they believe they were right, then why up their offer at the last sec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 24, 2014 -> 09:46 AM) I think HOU upped their offer so as to not loose the pick on their misdealing. again it was covering themselves just in case they were screwed. question, if they believe they were right, then why up their offer at the last sec. To try and get him to sign and avoid a PR disaster while also retaining the services to their 5th round pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted July 24, 2014 Author Share Posted July 24, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 24, 2014 -> 01:25 PM) It's kind of like comparing a torts lawyer and a Fortune 500 corporation. Of course, they are often going to be diametrically opposed in their positions. That's what provides the checks and balances, preventing one side or the other from becoming too powerful, along with the MLBPA. To say that the White Sox deserve sympathy for having to deal with Scott Borases of the world, that would be going too far. The Sox are valued somewhere in the $700-850 million vicinity. Nobody should be crying too much for them. sorry again but this time from my lousy writing skills. I was using Scott B and his dealings with the Sox as an example, which later seems as I was dragging Scott B thru the mud. I wanted to somewhat defend the ball clubs right to play hardball with these advisor/agents as they, the agents have played hard ball with the ball clubs. what HOU did was totally wrong and esp in their attempt to play the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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