Terri Shaivo thread

[JUGGERNAUT]

Well the Schiavo case is down to the wire now. The same comm you saw grilling MLB is planning to grill everyone in the Schiavo case. While at the same time the US House of Rep is trying to get a bill passed where the state will error on the side of life in such matters where the decision of the patient is not clearly known. Basically removing right for a judge(s) to decide the intention of the patient.

 

This is a strange case because of all the extraneous circumstances. Did he abuse her beforehand? Was there negligence involved on his part? What is the best case scenario for her outcome? In lieu of the high divorce rates & the ever increasing rates of repeat marriages should the parents in general have greater say in such matters than the spouse? Which is stronger in America? The institution of family or the institution of marriage?

 

Many of those answers are pretty obvious. In my opinion the parents should have the greatest say. They are responsible for bringing Terri into this world & they should have the greatest responsibility for when she leaves it. Period.

 

Having said that should Terri be left to die?

What we know: The medical consensus is that based on today's medical technology there is no hope for Terri. She is not going to get better. The brain damage is too extensive. However; that same consensus agrees she is experiencing no pain & may have some sense of being alive. They can't quantify that, but they agree there are signs her body is reacting to some degree to that which surrounds her. No it does not mean she is going to get better, only that there is something left & she is not going to get worse.

 

What is possible: Terri is in her 40's now & her organs are in good health. I suppose we could all make that claim if we had been fed with the healthiest of solutions for that many years. Her life expectancy is good for at least 20 more years (2025). Now try to think logically about this. I want you to consider the evolution of pc technology in the last 20 yrs. I want you to consider the evolution of genetics in the last 20 yrs. Finally I want you to consider the evolution of nano-technology in the next 20 yrs. It is possible Terri could regain consciousness with a cyborg brain in her 60's. Life expectancy for the rich will probably be a 100 by then & Terri's celebrity status right now would probably afford her access to that technology.

 

Now you're probably saying what the Fk are you talking about with nano-technology?

We are talking about machines of a size & scope of 1/10th the size of a human hair.

These machines would contain wireless based networking components not unlike mobile technology today. This enables them to be controlled & monitored by advanced networking systems. Machines of this magnitude could be used to bypass those areas of Terri's brain which no longer function. That could enable Terri to regain a form of consciousness, speech, & God only knows what else.

 

This is not science-fiction. It's plausible science. The kind of science that is feeding

billions of investment into the nano-tech sectors. Not on the scale of the bio-tech sectors but bigger than what was present at the infancy of bio-tech. Many of us in are 20's & 30's & possibly even 40's now are going to be living in a world where cyborgs exist. Make no mistake of that.

 

Because I so firmly believe in technology I am reluctant to vote to pull Terri's

feeding tube. If her organs were deteriorating I would have second thoughts but as long as she remains a cyborg candidate she should be given that opportunity. It's not like the nano-tech industry isn't going to want to try. Can you imagine how quickly their stocks would rise in the next 20 yrs if Terri was made a cyborg & then suddenly said boo?

 

The old science-fiction represented cyborgs as monsterous creations. Plausible science sees them as looking no different then you & I but with magic in the body.

I firmly believe that before I reach my parents age I too will have some measure of cyborg technology in my body. Most likely a cerebral interface that allows me to upload & download memories or visual input. It won't look hardwired at all like in Johhny Mnemonic. It will be seamless, wireless, & virtually undetectable. The antennas will be embedded in the skin. I'll be sleeping while backup & retreival ops are going on. Nothing so real-time like in the Matrix, but the general principle will still be there.

 

There's an old-saying amongst engineers, technologists, scientists, & just geeky people alike: today's sci-fi is tomorrow's science. Think Strange Days & Ghost in the Shell & see our future on the horizon. Scary as hell, but the next step in our evolution to colonize space. Assuming we don't kill ourselves in the process

 

If you were to vote to pull the tube then be sure to administer a painless death solution. Medical consensus can not conclude that Terri has no active pain receptors.

There is the possibility she could experience pain during her death by starvation. It would be more humane to administer a quick & painless death.

[Rex Kickass]

I remember this girl in high school. Her mother, who was one of my teachers, had a devastating stroke/brain hemmorhage which left her essentially brain dead. After several months with absolutely no brain activity, they decided to pull the tube. It took her another couple weeks to die. I know it was a heartbreaking decision for them to make and its a decision I'd never wish upon anyone.

 

If a human no longer has any brain capacity whatsoever and no hope for brain capacity to return, is this person still alive in the first place? It seems extreme and brutal to pull a feeding tube, but if the person is incapable of even sensing being fed, is it?

 

I don't know. I lean towards pulling the tube - especially a decade in, but I'm not sure. I definitely think the onus is on the husband to make the choice, not the parents.

[YASNY]

I remember this girl in high school. Her mother, who was one of my teachers, had a devastating stroke/brain hemmorhage which left her essentially brain dead. After several months with absolutely no brain activity, they decided to pull the tube. It took her another couple weeks to die. I know it was a heartbreaking decision for them to make and its a decision I'd never wish upon anyone.

 

If a human no longer has any brain capacity whatsoever and no hope for brain capacity to return, is this person still alive in the first place? It seems extreme and brutal to pull a feeding tube, but if the person is incapable of even sensing being fed, is it?

 

I don't know. I lean towards pulling the tube - especially a decade in, but I'm not sure. I definitely think the onus is on the husband to make the choice, not the parents.

 

My argument to the contrary consists of two words: Scott Peterson.

[Rex Kickass]

But this dude is Not Scott Peterson.

 

And, as much as I'm trying to keep money out of the equation, the parents aren't the ones going bankrupt keeping her alive either.

[YASNY]

But this dude is Not Scott Peterson.

 

And, as much as I'm trying to keep money out of the equation, the parents aren't the ones going bankrupt keeping her alive either.

 

 

Good point. But the Scott Peterson comment makes a point and "he" doesn't have to be Scott Peterson.

[Steff]

Good point.  But the Scott Peterson comment makes a point and "he" doesn't have to be Scott Peterson.

 

 

 

I don't see the relevance.. can you elaborate further?

[FlaSoxxJim]

My argument to the contrary consists of two words:  Scott Peterson.

My equally smarmy 2 word argument for spousal rights - especially as averse as I tend to be toward all the Bible claptrap: Genesis 2

 

Therefore a man foresekes his father and his mother and clings to his wife, and they become one flesh.

 

Marriage trumps blood. 'Cuz the Bible says so.

[JUGGERNAUT]

If a human no longer has any brain capacity whatsoever

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It is pyshologically impossible in today's world to remain alive with a feed tube having no brain capacity whatsoever. While you write a post the majority of your brain is working in a capacity to control the various systems of your body. That has little to do with what you think, feel, say, or do & everything to do with keeping you alive.

 

Terri's organs are in good shape because her neural network is functioning properly.

That means most of her brain capacity is there & the ability of her brain to send & receive messages down her spine & out to the various systems of her body is working fine. But that area of her brain which processes sensory input & output (sight, hearing, speech, motor functions) is not.

 

The best analogy I can think of is that of a modern car. The parts are all in good shape but the chip that control the motor functions of the car (ignition, braking, steering) is fried. Would you junk the car, by-pass the chip, or replace the chip?

I think the last thing you would do is junk the car. In this case you can't replace the chip so the only thing that exists is to by-pass it. We don't have the technology to do that now but we will in the future.

 

Try to remember that Terri is not a spinal injury patient like Reeves. Those patients loose the ability of the brain to control the maintenance of the body's organs. That usually results in a slow process of organ death. Doctors do all they can to prevent that from happening but it's usually inevitable. Terri is in much better condition body-wise then them. That part of her brain is working. Organ death is not a high risk.

[FlaSoxxJim]

OK, this is too f***ing much.

 

Congress subpoenas Terri Schiavo to appear before them. The subpoena was delivered to the hospice. Since it is a crime (contempt of Congress) to interefere or harm anyone who has been subpoena'd to appear (apparently even someone in a persistent vegetative state), this will buy some time for the completely delusional and selfish parents of this poor woman to figure out what to do next.

 

According to the prior court ruling. Michael Schiavo would have been allowed to pull the tube seven minutes ago, local time. The subpena scam has most likely put things on hold. Again.

[southsider2k5]

OK, this is too f***ing much.

 

Congress subpoenas Terri Schiavo to appear before them.  The subpoena was delivered to the hospice.  Since it is a crime (contempt of Congress) to interefere or harm anyone who has been subpoena'd to appear (apparently even someone in a persistent vegetative state), this will buy some time for the completely delusional and selfish parents of this poor woman to figure out what to do next.

 

According to the prior court ruling. Michael Schiavo would have been allowed to pull the tube seven minutes ago, local time.  The subpena scam has most likely put things on hold.  Again.

 

Yeah, that is a complete joke. Let the judicial system do its job. Congress doesn't seem to like it when the justices legislate, why do their job?

 

Besides this issue and more specifically this case, has been around a long time, and I haven't seen Congress to swift to act on it. To get involved now is grandstanding, and nothing more.

[YASNY]

I don't see the relevance.. can you elaborate further?

 

Sure. Because there is nothing like a parent's love for their child. So many marriages end in divorce and one or the other party would love for the other person to just die for financial reasons. It ain't pretty, but I've seen it. Now, I am a divorcee, but my divorce was very amicable and I still care for my ex-wife. I can all and talk to her any time I want to. We get along great, because we both respect each other. But so many people would let finances or emotions rule them if the situation presented itself as it has done in this case. Pull the tube, and in 2 weeks the problem goes away.

Edited March 18, 2005 by YASNY

[Steff]

Sure.  Because there is nothing like a parent's love for their child.  So many marriages end in divorce and one or the other party would love for the other person to just die for financial reasons.  It ain't pretty, but I've seen it.  Now, I am a divorcee, but my divorce was very amicable and I still care for my ex-wife.  I can all and talk to her any time I want to.  We get along great, because we both respect each other.  But so many people would let finances or emotions rule them if the situation presented itself as it has done in this case.  Pull the tube, and in 2 weeks the problem goes away.

 

 

 

I'm still lost on the Peterson comparison...

 

But I understand the rest.. go figure.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Congress subpoenas Terri Schiavo to appear before them. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's clever. You're move death-dealers.

 

Putting aside the rights of Terri's parents to provide Terri a better life afforded to her in a cyborg future this case sure is working a lot of technicalities through the court which I think is good for the system as a whole. This too will go unchallenged & the courts will have to rule whether person's in near-vegatative states can be subpeonaed.

 

I'm betting they rule in favor. I recall a jury trial I served on where a man who was incapable of speech & writing appeared before the court as a witness to the damage he suffered when he was hit by a train. I'm sure there are many similar precedents across the nation of witnesses for both the defense & prosecution appearing before the court incapable of giving any written or spoken testimony. Their physical state is considered their testimony.

Edited March 18, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[YASNY]

I'm still lost on the Peterson comparison...

 

But I understand the rest.. go figure. 

 

 

OK. If Laci was in Terri Schiavo's situation, would Scott Peterson have had Laci's best interst at heart? Or would it have been an easy way to get her out of the way so he could play with Amber Frey?

[Rex Kickass]

But our judicial system has facilities and methods in place to determine whether or not the husband is a Scott Peterson or a Michael Schiavo.

 

In this situation, I believe marriage trumps parentage. I don't think the line is broad and clear and applies to each situation.

[southsider2k5]

This just got even more interesting. A judge has said that the feeding tube can come out, DESPITE what Congress has said.

 

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050318/D88TICO00.html

[YASNY]

But our judicial system has facilities and methods in place to determine whether or not the husband is a Scott Peterson or a Michael Schiavo.

 

In this situation, I believe marriage trumps parentage. I don't think the line is broad and clear and applies to each situation.

 

 

It may not be broad and clear, but I'd personally lean toward the parents over the spouse. Of course, The financial implications add a very wild card to this situation.

[Rex Kickass]

Michael Schiavo was appointed guardian to Terri Schiavo in 1990 without objection from her parents. Michael took Terri for experimental treatments later that year and pursued aggressive therapy to correct the situation through 1994. In 1993, the Schindlers (Terri's parents) Michael Schiavo had a falling out over either the course of therapy or money. Schiavo had recently been awarded a little over 1 million dollars due to malpractice lawsuits filed regarding the Schiavo case. The Schindlers try to attempt to have Schiavo removed as guardian, and fail because report after report by court appointed overseers have shown Schiavo's guardianship to be attentive and appropriate. It wasn't until 1998, after it was shared with Mr Schiavo that there is no chance of her leaving her vegetative state, did he petition to remove the feeding tube. It was several years later that the Schindler's alleged any abuse - in 2002. A third guardian overseer was appointed by the courts, this one was both a lawyer, doctor and he also came to the conclusion that her state is terminal and incapable of improvement. The courts, have by and large, sided with Michael Schiavo. Any money that would have been freed up from the negligence lawsuits have long since disappeared. This isn't about money anymore. This is about one person who is brain dead, being allowed to die.

[JUGGERNAUT]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050318/D88TICO00.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow! That judge risks being held in contempt in his latest decision. Is that sufficient grounds for impeachment? This death-dealer might have wanted to take a step back in that decision. Even the ACLU is not sure what step to take next. Person's incapable of spoken & written testimony have appeared before Congress comm before. It's not something new.

 

In any case I don't think any one is going to risk being held in contempt on a life & death issue to pull the tube. I think they've accomplished pretty much what they wanted. If they get Greer impeached in the process all the power to them.

 

Very clever

[JUGGERNAUT]

money anymore. This is about one person who is brain dead, being allowed to die.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This about one person who is brain IMPAIRED being denied an opportunity for a better life in a cyborg future. Big difference. She's not brain dead. Brain dead people suffer deterioration of the organs. That's not Terri.

 

If at any time in my life I was in Terri's situation I would want my Mom & Dad to make the decision to end my life over my spouse. I trust them more. That's just the reality of the world we live in.

Edited March 18, 2005 by JUGGERNAUT

[southsider2k5]

This about one person who is brain IMPAIRED being denied an opportunity for a better life in a cyborg future.  Big difference.  She's not brain dead.  Brain dead people suffer deterioration of the organs.  That's not Terri. 

 

If at any time in my life I was in Terri's situation I would want my Mom & Dad to make the decision to end my life over my spouse.  I trust them more.  That's just the reality of the world we live in.

 

Wow, you have got real problems if the person you are married to, you can't trust to decide whether to keep you on life support or not.

[YASNY]

Wow, you have got real problems if the person you are married to, you can't trust to decide whether to keep you on life support or not.

 

In my case, experience is a good teacher.

[southsider2k5]

In my case, experience is a good teacher.

 

If someone feels like that about their spouse, they should not be married to them, IMHO. If you can't trust someone with the most important decesion of your life, what can you trust them with?

[YASNY]

If someone feels like that about their spouse, they should not be married to them, IMHO.  If you can't trust someone with the most important decesion of your life, what can you trust them with?

 

Hey, I trusted her. Found out that it was mistake. Live and learn

[Steff]

OK.  If Laci was in Terri Schiavo's situation, would Scott Peterson have had Laci's best interst at heart?  Or would it have been an easy way to get her out of the way so he could play with Amber Frey?

 

 

 

Michael is not Scott.. not in any way, shape, or form.