What if we'd kept Gio Gonzalez?

[VAfan]

Because I live outside Washington, DC, I hear about Gio Gonzalez a fair amount. I don't really follow the Nats or the National League. But every time I hear about Gonzalez it pains me. I don't even want to watch him pitch.

 

Could you imagine Gonzalez in a Sox uniform right now? We could have given him John Danks' money and traded Danks for whatever we could get.

 

Here's Gio Gonzalez's stats page.

 

We had Gonzalez twice. We traded him to the Phillies in the Jim Thome deal, and then got him back, with Gavin Floyd for Freddie Garcia.

 

In January 2008, we traded him, Sweeney, and De Los Santos for Nick Swisher. And since we have nothing to show for trading Swisher to the Yankees, is this the worst trade that KW has ever made?

 

If our rotation swapped out Gonzalez for Danks, we would be World Series contenders. We may be anyway, but you get my point.

 

Just wanted to get this off my chest.

 

[Jake]

It's hard for me to say the trade was bad when it made perfect sense. It seemed like a very fair deal at the time...unfortunately all of the worst things happened. Swisher had next to no value when we traded him away. The way Swisher was handled was one of the first big red flags for Ozzie Guillen for me.

[JohnCangelosi]

It's hard for me to say the trade was bad when it made perfect sense. It seemed like a very fair deal at the time...unfortunately all of the worst things happened. Swisher had next to no value when we traded him away. The way Swisher was handled was one of the first big red flags for Ozzie Guillen for me.

Agreed. KW couldn't wait to get rid of Swish and was willing to accept just about anything in return. We all were scratching our heads on that one. That said, at the time, it was no guarantee that Gio was going to figure it out. Obviously it hurts seeing the pitcher he has become, however.

[Soxbadger]

Since the Sox brutalized the Phillies in the Garcia trade, I never really think about what could have been with Gio.

[kwolf68]

 

Up until that point KW hadn't really lost anything when trading away 'top prospects'. He was bound to trade the wrong guy eventually.

[caulfield12]

Yeah, Gio and Hudson both hurt.

 

But, if we can keep on replacing them with similar production out of unheralded guys like Humber or Quintana, it doesn't really matter. (Or Jenks and Santos in the bullpen, for another example).

 

There's no GM in baseball who hasn't made his share of moves which later look bone-headed.

 

Do you think the Marlins' fans are all going crazy because DeAza has played well for us? Royals'/Twins' fans are upset about losing Humber? Or look at the money the Yankees invest in their starting pitching...even to the point of bringing back veteran Andy Pettite. Are they up in arms they "lost" Quintana or that we seemingly stole him right out from under their noses, or still upset we not only took Contreras, we also got a subsidy back to pay for his salary?

 

And, of course, there's no way to empirically prove they both would have pitched as well in Chicago, or at USCF.

 

Maybe Gio needed the confidence of pitching with a huge park and foul territory to become the pitcher he is...in Chicago, his control issues early in his career and his penchant for surrendering long balls/fly balls might have derailed his career in its early infancy.

 

If anything, the success of Hudson, Gio, Brandon McCarthy or Clayton Richard makes our farm system's productivity look better and makes other teams more willing to trade with us.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2012 by caulfield12

[T R U]

Yeah, Gio and Hudson both hurt.

 

But, if we can keep on replacing them with similar production out of unheralded guys like Humber or Quintana, it doesn't really matter. (Or Jenks and Santos in the bullpen, for another example).

 

There's no GM in baseball who hasn't made his share of moves which later look bone-headed.

 

Do you think the Marlins' fans are all going crazy because DeAza has played well for us? Royals'/Twins' fans are upset about losing Humber? Or look at the money the Yankees invest in their starting pitching...even to the point of bringing back veteran Andy Pettite. Are they up in arms they "lost" Quintana or that we seemingly stole him right out from under their noses, or still upset we not only took Contreras, we also got a subsidy back to pay for his salary?

 

And, of course, there's no way to empirically prove they both would have pitched as well in Chicago, or at USCF.

 

Maybe Gio needed the confidence of pitching with a huge park and foul territory to become the pitcher he is...in Chicago, his control issues early in his career and his penchant for surrendering long balls/fly balls might have derailed his career in its early infancy.

 

If anything, the success of Hudson, Gio, Brandon McCarthy or Clayton Richard makes our farm system's productivity look better and makes other teams more willing to trade with us.

 

All you did was name players that those teams let walk away from them, our numbskull GM TRADES these players away for nothing in return. We really are a poorly run organization that lucked into a World Series in 05 which has kept this awful GM in office ever since.

 

[VAfan]

It's not as if I'm having sleepless nights or anything. And I wouldn't give it more than a passing thought if this team hadn't turned into contenders overnight.

 

Start of the season, I thought the Tigers would dominate the division. I thought there were too many things that had to go right for us to contend. But after this stretch, where nearly everything that needed to go right has, I think the team is very well positioned to fight for the division crown.

 

But if we make the playoffs, will we have much chance? Possibly. With only Texas dominant, we'd have a chance.

 

It's just that if we had one more dominant pitcher like Gonzalez .... I'd think we could beat Texas and make the World Series.

 

Whatever. As I said, I just wanted to get this off my chest so I could move on.

 

We actually could beat anyone. It will just take a few more things going right.

[iamshack]

All you did was name players that those teams let walk away from them, our numbskull GM TRADES these players away for nothing in return. We really are a poorly run organization that lucked into a World Series in 05 which has kept this awful GM in office ever since.

So you're arguing that it's better to let them walk away for nothing than to actually trade them?

 

I'm scratching my head here...

[caulfield12]

It's not as if I'm having sleepless nights or anything. And I wouldn't give it more than a passing thought if this team hadn't turned into contenders overnight.

 

Start of the season, I thought the Tigers would dominate the division. I thought there were too many things that had to go right for us to contend. But after this stretch, where nearly everything that needed to go right has, I think the team is very well positioned to fight for the division crown.

 

But if we make the playoffs, will we have much chance? Possibly. With only Texas dominant, we'd have a chance.

 

It's just that if we had one more dominant pitcher like Gonzalez .... I'd think we could beat Texas and make the World Series.

 

Whatever. As I said, I just wanted to get this off my chest so I could move on.

 

We actually could beat anyone. It will just take a few more things going right.

 

 

But it's the same for every team...imagine how good the Marlins could be had they kept Cabrera?

 

Where are Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller now? Not in Miami.

 

Or the Johan Santana deal. He was the best LH starter of his generation, and none of the players acquired are with the Twins right now. One of them, Humber, is playing for one of their biggest rivals.

 

That's just the nature of baseball. Had we not been in the pennant race in the middle of 2010, we could have been a lot more patient with both Hudson and Sale (he could have been developing as a starter instead of relieving in the heat of a pennant race).

 

All we can do is say that he put together a better team, spent $25 million less than last year to do, and that's all that matters. In the end, the coaching staff's changes and the steadying presence of Ventura might end up being the most important move of all...as you saw in AZ last year with the DBacks.

Edited May 31, 2012 by caulfield12

[T R U]

So you're arguing that it's better to let them walk away for nothing than to actually trade them?

 

I'm scratching my head here...

 

cmon man, did you really miss the point?

 

Hes saying not to worry about Gio because the Royals arent worrying about Humber, or the Marlins arent worrying about De Aza.

 

Neither of them showed anything with those teams and were let go. We take legit prospects (Young, Hudson, Gonzalez) and trade them away in stupid deals that end up being worthless.

 

Im so sick of KW and his Stanford educated ego trip. Hes constantly made poor decisions in trading, for YEARS. Yeah he can get some projects and turn them into decent lighting, but god damn when are we going to come out of a trade on the EVEN end.

 

Edwin Jackson trade, terrible.

Carlos Quentin trade, terrible.

Sergio Santos trade, terrible.

Daniel Hudson trade, terrible since we just gave Edwin Jackson away for free anyway.

 

you get the point, but then again I know you love KW.

[T R U]

But it's the same for every team...imagine how good the Marlins could be had they kept Cabrera?

 

Where are Cameron Maybin and Andrew Miller now? Not in Miami.

 

Or the Johan Santana deal. He was the best LH starter of his generation, and none of the players acquired are with the Twins right now. One of them, Humber, is playing for one of their biggest rivals.

 

That's just the nature of baseball. Had we not been in the pennant race in the middle of 2010, we could have been a lot more patient with both Hudson and Sale (he could have been developing as a starter instead of relieving in the heat of a pennant race).

 

All we can do is say that he put together a better team, spent $25 million less than last year to do, and that's all that matters. In the end, the coaching staff's changes and the steadying presence of Ventura might end up being the most important move of all...as you saw in AZ last year with the DBacks.

 

Now youre just naming situations where said clubs couldnt afford those players and had no choice. Cmon caulfield.

[iamshack]

cmon man, did you really miss the point?

 

Hes saying not to worry about Gio because the Royals arent worrying about Humber, or the Marlins arent worrying about De Aza.

 

Neither of them showed anything with those teams and were let go. We take legit prospects (Young, Hudson, Gonzalez) and trade them away in stupid deals that end up being worthless.

 

Im so sick of KW and his Stanford educated ego trip. Hes constantly made poor decisions in trading, for YEARS. Yeah he can get some projects and turn them into decent lighting, but god damn when are we going to come out of a trade on the EVEN end.

 

Edwin Jackson trade, terrible.

Carlos Quentin trade, terrible.

Sergio Santos trade, terrible.

Daniel Hudson trade, terrible since we just gave Edwin Jackson away for free anyway.

 

you get the point, but then again I know you love KW.

It seems better to me to at least know what players are valued by other organizations and trade them than letting them walk away for nothing.

 

I realize he has made some bad trades in recent years and there is no way around that. But the Carlos Quentin trade and the Sergio Santos trades? How can you say those are terrible? CQ and SS have hardly even played for the teams he traded them to! And we haven't seen the prospects yet because they are still developing.

 

Argue about KW blowing the Hudson deal and the EJ trade and I can't really defend those anymore...they were poor trades. But then you've got to give him credit for a lot of the moves that have worked out as well...

[caulfield12]

cmon man, did you really miss the point?

 

Hes saying not to worry about Gio because the Royals arent worrying about Humber, or the Marlins arent worrying about De Aza.

 

Neither of them showed anything with those teams and were let go. We take legit prospects (Young, Hudson, Gonzalez) and trade them away in stupid deals that end up being worthless.

 

Im so sick of KW and his Stanford educated ego trip. Hes constantly made poor decisions in trading, for YEARS. Yeah he can get some projects and turn them into decent lighting, but god damn when are we going to come out of a trade on the EVEN end.

 

Edwin Jackson trade, terrible.

Carlos Quentin trade, terrible.

Sergio Santos trade, terrible.

Daniel Hudson trade, terrible since we just gave Edwin Jackson away for free anyway.

 

you get the point, but then again I know you love KW.

 

How can you have any idea what Hernandez and Castro will do for us?

 

The Padres have a $7 million dollar injury-prone RFer they no longer need, soaking up a huge amount of payroll on clearly rebuilding team. Maybe Quentin will get on a hot streak and they'll get lucky to get a better return than what we got...but, remember, there's no Dayan Viciedo developing if Quentin's still here, or Quentin's coming back and Viciedo's being benched/blocked again.

 

We gave Jackson away for free to save money from Teahen's deal and we have a serviceable reliever. Not a net win, but maybe those savings allowed us to hold onto Floyd, Thornton and Crain for all we know, instead of having to deal them, too.

 

And where would we be right now with Sergio Santos on our team? Clearly better than with Addison Reed as the closer? They dealt Santos for a reason, and part of that reason is DL'ed.

Edited May 31, 2012 by caulfield12

[T R U]

It seems better to me to at least know what players are valued by other organizations and trade them than letting them walk away for nothing.

 

I realize he has made some bad trades in recent years and there is no way around that. But the Carlos Quentin trade and the Sergio Santos trades? How can you say those are terrible? CQ and SS have hardly even played for the teams he traded them to! And we haven't seen the prospects yet because they are still developing.

 

Argue about KW blowing the Hudson deal and the EJ trade and I can't really defend those anymore...they were poor trades. But then you've got to give him credit for a lot of the moves that have worked out as well...

 

I do give him credit, thats why I said he has done a good job getting some of those reclamation projects that no one wants.

 

My main point was, we didnt just cut Gio Gonzalez and let him walk off for nothing. Humber and De Aza were. Comparing us sighing over not having Gio is not the same as a Marlins fan saying De Aza should be their leadoff guy right now.

[iamshack]

I do give him credit, thats why I said he has done a good job getting some of those reclamation projects that no one wants.

 

My main point was, we didnt just cut Gio Gonzalez and let him walk off for nothing. Humber and De Aza were. Comparing us sighing over not having Gio is not the same as a Marlins fan saying De Aza should be their leadoff guy right now.

No it isn't...it means at least our GM tried to improve our ballclub with his valuable assets rather than not know which assets he had that were valuable...

[T R U]

How can you have any idea what Hernandez and Castro will do for us?

 

The Padres have a $7 million dollar they no longer need, soaking up a huge amount of payroll. Maybe Quentin will get on a hot streak and they'll get lucky to get a better return than what we got...but, remember, there's no Dayan Viciedo developing if Quentin's still here, or Quentin's coming back and Viciedo's being benched/blocked again.

 

We gave Jackson away for free to save money from Teahen's deal and we have a serviceable reliever. Not a net win, but maybe those savings allowed us to hold onto Floyd, Thornton and Crain for all we know, instead of having to deal them, too.

 

And where would we be right now with Sergio Santos on our team? Clearly better than with Addison Reed as the closer? They dealt Santos for a reason, and part of that reason is DL'ed.

 

Yawn.

 

Those "prospects" will never amount to anything for us. Ill kill myself and post it on youtube if any of them make any great contributions to this franchise.

 

You don't give away a front of the rotation starter to "save money" on a stupid deal YOU did in the first place. All we have to show for Daniel Hudson and Edwin Jackson is Zach Stewart, a mediocre reliever. Yowza.

[T R U]

No it isn't...it means at least our GM tried to improve our ballclub with his valuable assets rather than not know which assets he had that were valuable...

 

One could argue that, but then again Gio has been a pretty damn good pitcher now for a while and KW traded him twice. So you could say he doesnt know what assets he has that are valuable.

 

EDIT: Value to your organization, not trade value obviously

Edited May 31, 2012 by Papa Tru

[caulfield12]

In the end, Gavin Floyd, Quentin and Alexei Ramirez turned out to be HUGE acquisitions for the 2008 team. Just as important, if not moreso, than the Danks/McCarthy move in Dec. 2006.

 

All of them were pretty much under the radar, in terms of expectations.

 

I guess if you want to categorize every GM's moves (blockbuster, mid-level, under the radar/last page of newspaper transactions list, like Quintana)...well, that's ONE way to judge a GM, but not exactly a comprehensive look at the bigger picture.

[iamshack]

One could argue that, but then again Gio has been a pretty damn good pitcher now for a while and KW traded him twice. So you could say he doesnt know what assets he has that are valuable.

 

EDIT: Value to your organization, not trade value obviously

Yeah, the second time was really short-sighted, agreed.

[Jake]

Simon Castro is a very legit prospect at this point. He's talented and is looking like the prospect that once topped the loaded SD system. Hernandez is not terribly talented but is left handed and producing quite well at AA. That's a very interesting rotation down there with Quintana (I think he's going to be headed to AAA actually)

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I have been saying this for years, and maybe people are starting to realize it....

 

The Nick Swisher trade is the worst deal Kenny has ever made.

[Jake]

I have been saying this for years, and maybe people are starting to realize it....

 

The Nick Swisher trade is the worst deal Kenny has ever made.

 

Results-wise, sure. We got nothing out of Swisher and Ozzie forced him out of town when he had zero value, leaving us with nothing to show for the trade.

[iamshack]

I have been saying this for years, and maybe people are starting to realize it....

 

The Nick Swisher trade is the worst deal Kenny has ever made.

I don't think there are a whole lot of people who disagreed with that, especially since 2009 or so...

 

That being said, I don't think it's fair to consider what happened here with Swisher as anything that could have been expected.

[Balta1701]

I'll still go Jackson