caulfield12 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 On signing players like Quentin, Floyd, Danks, etc., to long-term extensions... "You are way, way too far ahead there," Williams told Merkin. "I have to look at how the Dow Jones did today and see the general state of the economy before we start committing large sums of money out there." Assitant GM Rick Hahn provided a more optimistic outlook, noting that multi-year contract talks don't typically take place in early February. "Historically, you talk about it in Spring Training, in a more relaxed atmosphere," Hahn said. "There has to be a meeting of the minds, with a willingness also on the part of the player and the agent." Has KW set the record for most comments about the economy/stock-market this offseason? It's getting a little tiresome now. It's one thing to acknowledge it as A BIG ISSUE but to be consumed with talking about it every day, that's not exactly a good way to motivate the fanbase. It would be better if he just said the market conditions are challenging for every team out there but the Yankees and Mets, and that the White Sox, like many teams, don't want to make any long-term commitments before we have a full grasp on when/if the economy might turn around...and what kind of actual losses teams might experience in 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 The White Sox as an organization have always seemed very sensitive about the perception that they are cheap, so this doesn't surprise me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 The state of the economy is a big factor for 2009 and beyond, as attendance is sure to be down. KW seems to be using the Dow Jones as just an example of that fact. Long term deals for guys like Danks and Q may be for far less money than similar players got last year. I'm not sure if the "market" has been set for guys in their arb years, so the sox waiting and seeing what kind of deal they can strike makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 QUOTE (The Critic @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 06:51 AM) The White Sox as an organization have always seemed very sensitive about the perception that they are cheap, so this doesn't surprise me. It would probably behoove KW to get off of the "I don't have any money to spend" talk if they don't like being thought of as cheap. If they think a guy making minimum is just as good as someone who would cost millions, fine. Just don't go into the "can't spend $1 when I only have $.50." He cries poor more than any executive since Bill Veeck. KW brings more attention to White Sox finances with his talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) The irony is that if you look at our expenditures over the last three years and compare that with 1) attendance and 2) wins, you'd have to agree we're getting a "so-so" return on our investment. However, if you factor in the fact that our average ticket prices, parking, concessions and souvenirs are close to the top in terms MLB rankings of cheap versus expensive...well, there's not much of a sensitivity to the plight of the fans, especially with the 11% increase for 2009. It's kind of strange, but you never hear KW say "our average payroll over the last three seasons was fifth in baseball..." You do see a few pretend-brave/courageous writers like Cowley bowing to JR, but that cheap label has been hard to get rid of since the White Flag trade, and because of the Bill Veeck Era before that. You have Albert Belle, David Wells, Navarro, keeping Buehrle/Konerko/Dye....spending a ton of money on Rodman, Pippen, Jordan, Hor. Grant, Kukoc and BJ Armstrong. But it's hard for fans to forget the way Fisk was treated, Black Jack McDowell, Ventura...Lance Johnson, Durham, Ordonez (of course KW never planned to keep him, regardless of the injuries), Carlos Lee, Rowand, Crede, etc. Then there was the nasty decade-long struggle with a diminishing Frank Thomas that lowered both sides in the process and was sad to watch. Yet our attendance was middle of the pack (mostly because of the nearly season-long disappointment of 2007) with all that money we spent, and the most successful year was the one in which we spent the least (05). Edited February 7, 2009 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 07:25 AM) The irony is that if you look at our expenditures over the last three years and compare that with 1) attendance and 2) wins, you'd have to agree we're getting a "so-so" return on our investment. However, if you factor in the fact that our average ticket prices, parking, concessions and souvenirs are close to the top in terms MLB rankings of cheap versus expensive...well, there's not much of a sensitivity to the plight of the fans, especially with the 11% increase for 2009. It's kind of strange, but you never hear KW say "our average payroll over the last three seasons was fifth in baseball..." You do see a few pretend-brave/courageous writers like Cowley bowing to JR, but that cheap label has been hard to get rid of since the White Flag trade, and because of the Bill Veeck Era before that. You have Albert Belle, David Wells, Navarro, keeping Buehrle/Konerko/Dye....spending a ton of money on Rodman, Pippen, Jordan, Hor. Grant, Kukoc and BJ Armstrong. But it's hard for fans to forget the way Fisk was treated, Black Jack McDowell, Ventura...Lance Johnson, Durham, Ordonez (of course KW never planned to keep him, regardless of the injuries), Carlos Lee, Rowand, Crede, etc. Then there was the nasty decade-long struggle with a diminishing Frank Thomas that lowered both sides in the process and was sad to watch. Yet our attendance was middle of the pack (mostly because of the nearly season-long disappointment of 2007) with all that money we spent, and the most successful year was the one in which we spent the least (05). I wouldn't have a problem as long as KW wouldn't walk around and tell everyone almost everytime he's interviewed that the White Sox were broke. He even joked about having to play day games because they won't be able to pay their electric bill. I also wonder why he will bring up the Forbes report which states the White Sox spend the most percentage-wise on payroll vs. net income, which is fine and dandy, but could be a little misleading considering their sweetheart lease deal and other factors, but will say Forbes has no idea what they are talking about when they state the White Sox have made over $70 million in profit from 2005-2007. If the payroll is going to be $100 million, that's fine, although as a season tickethoder I do feel a bit shafted at an increase in ticket price and a decrease in the cost of the team on the field. If they have $5 million to throw around to get out of a lease,(I don't think that $5 million should effect payroll) they should have some money to throw around to fill a couple of holes on the team. The crying poor act has become old. Edited February 7, 2009 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 07:05 AM) It would probably behoove KW to get off of the "I don't have any money to spend" talk if they don't like being thought of as cheap. If they think a guy making minimum is just as good as someone who would cost millions, fine. Just don't go into the "can't spend $1 when I only have $.50." He cries poor more than any executive since Bill Veeck. KW brings more attention to White Sox finances with his talk. Absolutely. It's a spiral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 05:11 AM) On signing players like Quentin, Floyd, Danks, etc., to long-term extensions... "You are way, way too far ahead there," Williams told Merkin. "I have to look at how the Dow Jones did today and see the general state of the economy before we start committing large sums of money out there." Assitant GM Rick Hahn provided a more optimistic outlook, noting that multi-year contract talks don't typically take place in early February. "Historically, you talk about it in Spring Training, in a more relaxed atmosphere," Hahn said. "There has to be a meeting of the minds, with a willingness also on the part of the player and the agent." Has KW set the record for most comments about the economy/stock-market this offseason? It's getting a little tiresome now. It's one thing to acknowledge it as A BIG ISSUE but to be consumed with talking about it every day, that's not exactly a good way to motivate the fanbase. It would be better if he just said the market conditions are challenging for every team out there but the Yankees and Mets, and that the White Sox, like many teams, don't want to make any long-term commitments before we have a full grasp on when/if the economy might turn around...and what kind of actual losses teams might experience in 2009. Kenny is answering a question. Its not like he is going out and saying this to anyone he can corner. Reporters ask, he answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 i also dont think he is being a jerk for not wanting to rush to extend these three players. Anything can happen, KW doesnt want to get saddled with a contract for a player who blew out his knee or elbow and wasnt even close to free agency Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 11:25 AM) i also dont think he is being a jerk for not wanting to rush to extend these three players. Anything can happen, KW doesnt want to get saddled with a contract for a player who blew out his knee or elbow and wasnt even close to free agency The title was edited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 QUOTE (kyyle23 @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 09:25 AM) i also dont think he is being a jerk for not wanting to rush to extend these three players. Anything can happen, KW doesnt want to get saddled with a contract for a player who blew out his knee or elbow and wasnt even close to free agency Kenny has never been the most tactful guy when describing a situation, and his bluntness has caused him to butt heads with media or players in the past. It's a shame, but I've learned to live with this side of Kenny. His strength is putting together a roster, and as long as he does that well, we'll have to deal with his rough edges. He himself has admitted to it getting him in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) If they ever identify a team nucleus for the future you hope they sign them to long term deals, but are these guys even close to being free agent escapees? Edited February 7, 2009 by elrockinMT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 The term smart a** comes to mind first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 12:30 PM) The term smart a** comes to mind first. a** was in the original title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 10:05 AM) Kenny is answering a question. Its not like he is going out and saying this to anyone he can corner. Reporters ask, he answers. I actually agree with KW with extensions for these guys. They have had 1 good season each. You can't get too far ahead of yourself. Generally, if they continue like they have been, a year or two of arbitration still is a decent deal. The no money talk is what has to stop. Edited February 7, 2009 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 10:14 AM) I actually agree with KW with extensions for these guys. They have had 1 good season each. You can't get too far ahead of yourself. Generally, if they continue like they have been, a year or two of arbitration still is a decent deal. The no money talk is what has to stop. In last year's economy, it would make sense to jump on these guys early, a-la the Hanley Ramirez, Evan Longoria deals, etc. Because if you assume the market is just going to go up and up and up forever, then it makes sense to extend them as early as you can and buy out a couple years of FA to give yourself some cost certainty and save money year over year. But, KW is right. If the economy keeps plunging, then next year's FA market could be an even bigger bloodbath than this year's, where this year at least had the Yankees and Mets having new ballparks to sustain them. The Mets could well lose their Citigroup sponsorship and be out $20 million a year, the Yankees might well get caught up in the NYC economic bubble bursting and have revenues far lower than they were hoping, and that can easily ripple through the league. If the market is going up forever, then extensions early make sense. If the market stops and corrects to the down side, it makes no sense to try to extend people before the correction has worked its way through, because you'll be overpaying. Regardless of injuries, etc., these guys aren't worth right now what they were worth a few months ago, and that's a trend that may well continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 12:14 PM) I actually agree with KW with extensions for these guys. They have had 1 good season each. You can't get too far ahead of yourself. Generally, if they continue like they have been, a year or two of arbitration still is a decent deal. The no money talk is what has to stop. I bow to Kenny here because in reality, he, for a guy with our payroll size, has avoided giving out a big and bad contract, as opposed to some of the albatrosses around baseball, hell just 8.1 miles north. At the sametime he has managed to keep a talent pool pumping into Chicago that has allowed him to avoid the free agent market to save the team. We might not like the 50 cents talk, but why hate on the guy for telling it how it is? I'd rather have that than the Schuler type crap about how we went after a free agent that we offered a fraction of the money that the other teams did. (ala Ventura at 3 years 18 mil as compared to NYM at 4 years 32 mil). Give me honesty every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Yeah I fail to see how being honest with the fans makes him a smartass. Given the current state of the economy and the subsequent effect it's had on the free agent market in baseball there's absolutely no reason to throw large sums of guaranteed money at players who are still 4 yeas away from free agency. If the economy rebounds (hence the Dow Jones remark) and the price of players begins to rise back to the usual levels then he can think about locking up some of these younger players and buying out a few of those potentially costly free agent years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 02:34 PM) I bow to Kenny here because in reality, he, for a guy with our payroll size, has avoided giving out a big and bad contract, as opposed to some of the albatrosses around baseball, hell just 8.1 miles north. At the sametime he has managed to keep a talent pool pumping into Chicago that has allowed him to avoid the free agent market to save the team. We might not like the 50 cents talk, but why hate on the guy for telling it how it is? I'd rather have that than the Schuler type crap about how we went after a free agent that we offered a fraction of the money that the other teams did. (ala Ventura at 3 years 18 mil as compared to NYM at 4 years 32 mil). Give me honesty every time. Yet he offered Torii Hunter a lot and Fukudome $50 million. Doesn't sound like a guy who can't afford the electric bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 12:34 PM) I bow to Kenny here because in reality, he, for a guy with our payroll size, has avoided giving out a big and bad contract, as opposed to some of the albatrosses around baseball, hell just 8.1 miles north. At the sametime he has managed to keep a talent pool pumping into Chicago that has allowed him to avoid the free agent market to save the team. We might not like the 50 cents talk, but why hate on the guy for telling it how it is? I'd rather have that than the Schuler type crap about how we went after a free agent that we offered a fraction of the money that the other teams did. (ala Ventura at 3 years 18 mil as compared to NYM at 4 years 32 mil). Give me honesty every time. On a side note...man am I glad we didn't sign Torii Hunter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 05:10 PM) On a side note...man am I glad we didn't sign Torii Hunter. I'm more glad we didn't sign Fukudome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 03:33 PM) Yet he offered Torii Hunter a lot and Fukudome $50 million. Doesn't sound like a guy who can't afford the electric bill. There is about zero comparison between the economics of the 2007 off season and the 2008 off season. There is no rational to connect our actions of last year to this year. The world has completely changed. Failure to recognize that would turn this franchise into the Coyotes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 7, 2009 -> 08:21 PM) There is about zero comparison between the economics of the 2007 off season and the 2008 off season. There is no rational to connect our actions of last year to this year. The world has completely changed. Failure to recognize that would turn this franchise into the Coyotes. He's been crying he has no money way before now. If he truly has no money, he's very fortunate those 2 turned him down, or he'd really be stuck. Its not like guys making 8 figures are easy to move these days.His explanation about Hunter and Fukudome was that they would generate a bunch of additional revenue such as jersey and t-shirts sales. I don't think Fukudome could generate $50 million in merchandise sales if he had 2 million relatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 8, 2009 -> 08:40 AM) He's been crying he has no money way before now. If he truly has no money, he's very fortunate those 2 turned him down, or he'd really be stuck. Its not like guys making 8 figures are easy to move these days.His explanation about Hunter and Fukudome was that they would generate a bunch of additional revenue such as jersey and t-shirts sales. I don't think Fukudome could generate $50 million in merchandise sales if he had 2 million relatives. The payroll was also higher then to reflect those times. Do you really believe the Sox should be spending as much in 2009 as 2008 with the economy the way that it is today? Do you really believe a big free agent splash would have the same number of ticket sales come with it this year as it would have last year? What huge revenues are you seeing that the Sox aren't spending that I am not? I have yet to see anyone show me that Kenny was lying when he said the Sox were tapped for this year. I see b****ing and moaning about it, but nothing to show it wasn't the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 The main argument out there is the assertion that the Sox made a profit of $70 million from 2005-2008. I think if people didn't have that in their heads, they wouldn't be so upset...and the prices for most franchises keep appreciating (even in this market), so the average fan always feels like the owners of their teams have to spend wildly like Steinbrenner or Cuban or they're not "good" owners who care the most about their team winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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