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JenksIsMyHero
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 10:58 AM
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QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:44 AM) *
As someone who both supports free college for all, and is paying back my own college debt, I have to say that it would be really difficult to support a free college plan that didn't also address the outstanding student loan debt...


I'm not even sure a free college for all plan is a good idea. We need the dam to break on the cost of obtaining a degree. The whole system isn't workable. We need more people to forego college for trade schools or vocational schools or even new colleges that will provide specific degrees at a reduced rate. The 4 year liberal arts degree needs to go away.

And yes, unless there's a huge relief on my own debt, i'm not agreeing to pay for someone else to get a degree for free.
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illinilaw08
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:06 AM
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QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 10:58 AM) *
I'm not even sure a free college for all plan is a good idea. We need the dam to break on the cost of obtaining a degree. The whole system isn't workable. We need more people to forego college for trade schools or vocational schools or even new colleges that will provide specific degrees at a reduced rate. The 4 year liberal arts degree needs to go away.

And yes, unless there's a huge relief on my own debt, i'm not agreeing to pay for someone else to get a degree for free.


Yeah, one of the things I have seen is that more and more entry level jobs that traditionally did not require a degree now require one - they don't necessarily require a specific degree, but do require a degree from a 4-year college. I'm talking about jobs like administrative assistants. If the market is requiring a degree to get even those jobs, then you have to make obtaining that degree cheaper and more accessible.

I'm going to respectfully disagree on the value of a 4-year liberal arts degree.
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CrimsonWeltall
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:11 AM
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QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 05:44 PM) *
As someone who both supports free college for all, and is paying back my own college debt, I have to say that it would be really difficult to support a free college plan that didn't also address the outstanding student loan debt...


If you do any kind of debt erasure, then you're pissing off all the people who paid for college without loans, or took loans and already paid them off.
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illinilaw08
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:24 AM
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QUOTE (CrimsonWeltall @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:11 AM) *
If you do any kind of debt erasure, then you're pissing off all the people who paid for college without loans, or took loans and already paid them off.


I think it would be as simple as dropping the interest rate on existing government loans to 0% and making existing loans dischargeable in bankruptcy. That would provide relief to those with assets that keep them out of bk (getting rid of the interest burden) and provide an avenue out to the millions in default on their loans.

Ultimately, beyond the fact that I hate paying my student loan debt and get off my lawn, you are only solving one part of the higher ed issue if you get to free college for all. There is still a ton of existing student loan debt that is impossible to get rid of (in bankruptcy or otherwise), in ridiculous amounts (over $1T with millions in default). https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/

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Reddy
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:28 AM
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QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 12:03 PM) *
Again, read the link I provided. When it comes to an issue like free college, polling shows that only the dem base supports that idea. A large number in the middle think it's unfair to provide free college while they're paying back their own college debt. That's not an issue that is going to get people to vote D in the next few elections.

Is free college in the Better Deal platform? I don't see it.
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raBBit
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:45 AM
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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 09:54 AM) *
I fully believe that everything since the election has been about selling this book and squeezing every penny out of this that they can. I know it rings hollow when you have the somewhere near the worst President in American history in the White House, but Clinton has been anything but Presidential since the election. At the end of the day you can respect the voters and walk off graciously like a Jimmy Carter or George Bush did, and maintain some level of self-respect, or you can even throw yourself into the issues that made you run for President in the first place, like Al Gore did, and again maintain some self-respect. But we are pushing up on a year now of this pity me campaign. She should be embarrassed, but apparently neither her nor Trump know what the term means.


Great post.
QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 11:58 AM) *
I'm not even sure a free college for all plan is a good idea. We need the dam to break on the cost of obtaining a degree. The whole system isn't workable. We need more people to forego college for trade schools or vocational schools or even new colleges that will provide specific degrees at a reduced rate. The 4 year liberal arts degree needs to go away.

And yes, unless there's a huge relief on my own debt, i'm not agreeing to pay for someone else to get a degree for free.

They really need to ditch the government guaranteed student loan deal. All it does is gaurentee univiersites can keep increasing their prices more than twice the rate of inflation and get away with it because students can still "pay" for it by graduating with a mortgage.
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JenksIsMyHero
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 12:07 PM
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QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 12:06 PM) *
Yeah, one of the things I have seen is that more and more entry level jobs that traditionally did not require a degree now require one - they don't necessarily require a specific degree, but do require a degree from a 4-year college. I'm talking about jobs like administrative assistants. If the market is requiring a degree to get even those jobs, then you have to make obtaining that degree cheaper and more accessible.

I'm going to respectfully disagree on the value of a 4-year liberal arts degree.


My issue is for the vast majority of jobs out there that require a degree, you really don't need one. You learn the skills for the position by doing the work. At best you need an associates degree to shore up math or writing skills (though if you're able to take AP calc or physics or english in high school, that's more than you'll ever need). The experience of college and living on your own and figuring out the social stuff is what college provides. The in-school portion is a waste unless you're on a specific track for sciences or accounting or whatever. And those should just be specific degree tracks at a school. Most of my friends got general liberal arts degrees in business admn or political science or whatever, and they have vastly different careers. None of them used what they learned in school to do their jobs. Only in the most general way.

Even lawyers. Why did we have to get an undergrad degree? What did my political science/business admn double major provide me in my prep for law school? Nothing. I could have gone to law school right out of high school.

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knightni
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 01:47 PM
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QUOTE (raBBit @ Sep 12, 2017 -> 10:58 AM) *
I think you know the answer to this. The parameters of evil aren't important. We have people suffering here and our leaders think it's more important to give money to other countries.

That's the same thing that American corporate business does.

Ship jobs overseas and give money to countries that allow poor treatment of their employees and offer near slave wages.
The same corporate business owners who donate heavily to conservative politicians.
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StrangeSox
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 02:21 PM
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QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 01:07 PM) *
My issue is for the vast majority of jobs out there that require a degree, you really don't need one. You learn the skills for the position by doing the work. At best you need an associates degree to shore up math or writing skills (though if you're able to take AP calc or physics or english in high school, that's more than you'll ever need). The experience of college and living on your own and figuring out the social stuff is what college provides. The in-school portion is a waste unless you're on a specific track for sciences or accounting or whatever. And those should just be specific degree tracks at a school. Most of my friends got general liberal arts degrees in business admn or political science or whatever, and they have vastly different careers. None of them used what they learned in school to do their jobs. Only in the most general way.

Even lawyers. Why did we have to get an undergrad degree? What did my political science/business admn double major provide me in my prep for law school? Nothing. I could have gone to law school right out of high school.

But those college degrees are still requirements to getting your foot in the door in those types of careers. And even in more technical programs, things can diverge pretty radically. My degree is in mechanical engineering, and I haven't done anything directly related to that in years, though I'm still in engineering.

People maybe only really "need" an associate's degree to acquire the skills for a particular job, but the hiring manager and HR for that job are still going to be looking for bachelor's or better and no amount of "well things ought to be different" will really change that imo.

It's also missing the forest from the trees a bit to view college solely as "training for a specific career." A generalist education gives you better background and understanding as an individual, and you might not have any idea where your career or life will take you over the next several decades.
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raBBit
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 02:58 PM
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QUOTE (knightni @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 02:47 PM) *
That's the same thing that American corporate business does.

Ship jobs overseas and give money to countries that allow poor treatment of their employees and offer near slave wages.
The same corporate business owners who donate heavily to conservative politicians.

Review the board rules before posting in the republican thread with this divisive, baseless post.

Not only is this not related to my post that you quoted. How do your baseless, sweeping generalizations apply to Afghanistan, Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Pakistan? You know (or seemingly don't), the countries that recieve the most foreign aid? Surely there's manufacturing in Jordan/Pakistan, but not to the extent it is in Southeast Asia which I'm assuming you're referring to.

America gives money to Israel, the countries who's livelihood they ruin via war and countries that support Israel.

Conservatives philosphically disagree with foreign aid. In recent years, there's been bipartisan support for nation building and spreading democracy during the GWOT. Also bipartisan support for helping with the treatment of diseases in Africa. The latter is all I can really agree with.

Also, GWB was decreasing foreign aid when he left office where Obama increased it 80% in his first term. HRC went to war with republicans in senate who thought foreign aid money would be better spent on Americans. Rand Paul, Michelle Bachman and the Tea party all fought against foreign aid during the Obama admin and John Kerry, Harry Reid, HRC and President Obama all fought for it and legislated it into the budget.

I don't know where you got this opinion from but I'd really advise doing some research on the subject because it's not consistent with history, philosophy or anything else that could be used to come to such a conclusion. But please post which businesses and politicians you're referring to. If you would, post the greater picture. I'm sure there's an exception or two, but post it all. Look forward to reading what you can conjure up.
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JenksIsMyHero
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 03:30 PM
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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Sep 14, 2017 -> 03:21 PM) *
But those college degrees are still requirements to getting your foot in the door in those types of careers. And even in more technical programs, things can diverge pretty radically. My degree is in mechanical engineering, and I haven't done anything directly related to that in years, though I'm still in engineering.

People maybe only really "need" an associate's degree to acquire the skills for a particular job, but the hiring manager and HR for that job are still going to be looking for bachelor's or better and no amount of "well things ought to be different" will really change that imo.


Right, they are, but they shouldn't be is my point. I agree that at this point we've gone too far down this road. HR people require degrees as a matter of course now even for positions that don't require it.

QUOTE
It's also missing the forest from the trees a bit to view college solely as "training for a specific career." A generalist education gives you better background and understanding as an individual, and you might not have any idea where your career or life will take you over the next several decades.


I disagree. This is the problem with people's view of what college is or should be. You shouldn't be forcing people to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for generalized education as a requirement for employment, which is what our system has become. I agree it's tough to be deciding what you want to do for the rest of your life at 18, but at some point something needs to change. Racking up insane amounts of school debt is just a huge, huge burden. And it's often unnecessary. I want the bottom to drop on that market. A college degree is so over priced. I'm not sure what the solution is, but making it even more meaningless by giving it to everyone isn't the answer. Once you do that everyone will then be paying for a graduate degree or a phd.
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StrangeSox
post Sep 14, 2017 -> 05:24 PM
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There's definitely something to what you're saying and why "everyone get a STEM degree!" Isn't an actual solution
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