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> The Democrat Thread
NorthSideSox72
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:14 PM
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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 01:13 PM) *
Not possible.

(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/Kent_State_massacre.jpg)

(Yes, I know these were NG's)

You are the only one saying it is not possible.
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Y2HH
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:15 PM
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QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 01:06 PM) *
No, I'm saying if you look at the history of protests in this country, which group has overreacted more often? There have been many occasions where protesters have been killed in this country.

I'm not anti-cop. I'm just saying they can overreact.


It's a razor's edge type of situation for them, and it's always easy to second guess it. If they let things get out of hand just a second longer than they should have, a situation like that can turn into a full out riot, complete with looting and many innocent bystanders getting hurt or killed. Then what you have is the exact opposite of what you have here...and you'd all be b****ing the police should have stepped in sooner and done something BEFORE the violence erupted.

It's a fine line...and it's easy to sit behind a computer, watch a few videos and call the police names...it's a different story when you have to be there and know how easily a riot can break out in a situation that's obviously escalating.

If you've ever seen a riot, you'd know most of those rioting are normally law abiding citizens that get crazy...and suddenly turn into a primal savages.

Whatever the case may be, be thankful you don't have to be there/weren't there. But believe me when I tell you this, MOST cops -- I'd say 99.5% of them -- they don't want trouble...ever. They'd rather go through their entire shift not seeing anyone do anything wrong than to get caught up in a situation like this.
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StrangeSox
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:22 PM
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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 01:14 PM) *
You are the only one saying it is not possible.


It is possible that some protesters threw bottles/other objects. It's more likely than an agent provocateur. The police response to the crowd is still a disproportionate use of force. It's also possible that this use of force was unprovoked. I don't think that can really be questioned given what really started getting media coverage of OWS, the unprovoked macing of protesters by NYPD.
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southsider2k5
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:24 PM
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QUOTE (Y2HH @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 01:15 PM) *
It's a razor's edge type of situation for them, and it's always easy to second guess it. If they let things get out of hand just a second longer than they should have, a situation like that can turn into a full out riot, complete with looting and many innocent bystanders getting hurt or killed. Then what you have is the exact opposite of what you have here...and you'd all be b****ing the police should have stepped in sooner and done something BEFORE the violence erupted.

It's a fine line...and it's easy to sit behind a computer, watch a few videos and call the police names...it's a different story when you have to be there and know how easily a riot can break out in a situation that's obviously escalating.

If you've ever seen a riot, you'd know most of those rioting are normally law abiding citizens that get crazy...and suddenly turn into a primal savages.

Whatever the case may be, be thankful you don't have to be there/weren't there. But believe me when I tell you this, MOST cops -- I'd say 99.5% of them -- they don't want trouble...ever. They'd rather go through their entire shift not seeing anyone do anything wrong than to get caught up in a situation like this.


We saw what happened not too long ago in Vancouver when the police response wasn't convincing enough at the beginning.
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StrangeSox
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:25 PM
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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 01:14 PM) *
Actually, I'd say bottles being thrown from the crowd defintely justifies chemical response. In fact it is a lower level of force than is being exerted by the protestors in that scenario.


Throwing bottles at police in riot gear is a higher use of force than launching chemical rounds into a largely peaceful group?
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GoSox05
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:28 PM
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QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 01:24 PM) *
We saw what happened not too long ago in Vancouver when the police response wasn't convincing enough at the beginning.


What happened in Vancouver is a totally different thing than an organized protest.

Also did you just compare OWS protesters to Canuck fans? How dare you.
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StrangeSox
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:32 PM
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We can all agree that Canuck fans are the scum of the earth and deserve whatever they get.
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southsider2k5
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:36 PM
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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 01:32 PM) *
We can all agree that Canuck fans are the scum of the earth and deserve whatever they get.


Agreed.
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southsider2k5
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:37 PM
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QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 01:28 PM) *
What happened in Vancouver is a totally different thing than an organized protest.

Also did you just compare OWS protesters to Canuck fans? How dare you.


It is different, but it also what happens if the response is not adequate to the level of the crowd. It doesn't take long for things to go that extra level in a mob situation.
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StrangeSox
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 12:43 PM
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The motivations and intentions of the crowd are important factors.
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NorthSideSox72
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 02:13 PM
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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 01:25 PM) *
Throwing bottles at police in riot gear is a higher use of force than launching chemical rounds into a largely peaceful group?

Absolutely it is. A missile (thrown object) is higher on the force scale than a chemical agent like CS. But even if they are the same, it still makes it a reasonable level of force.
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Y2HH
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 01:43 PM) *
The motivations and intentions of the crowd are important factors.


Sometimes original motives and intentions can get twisted and corrupted by just a few...and the snowball begins rolling downhill. Not always, but it happens.
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StrangeSox
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 02:33 PM
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QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 03:13 PM) *
Absolutely it is. A missile (thrown object) is higher on the force scale than a chemical agent like CS. But even if they are the same, it still makes it a reasonable level of force.


The chemical agent is delivered via missile.
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NorthSideSox72
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 03:33 PM) *
The chemical agent is delivered via missile.

Which is intended to disperse, not hit them.
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Balta1701
post Oct 27, 2011 -> 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Oct 27, 2011 -> 04:33 PM) *
The chemical agent is delivered via missile.

At a high enough velocity to fracture an unarmored soldier's skull in multiple places.
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