I say Manny. ARod makes, what...$28M a year?...I actually could see Manny hittin' the $30M mark this off season. The dude is such a difference maker. F it Kenny...dump some dead weight and go get him!!! *kidding*...kinda-sorta.

arod....5 years younger, and can actually play defense and steal a base for you

Manny wins rings and is more clutch. Even though the knocking of ARod not being clutch maybe a tad overrated.

How's it overrated when he can't hit for lick in the playoffs? When it REALLY counts.

David Eckstein also wins rings.



Because he's not the only one that always sucks in the playoffs for the Yankees? I understand the whole "he's making 5 billion dollars a year so he should produce" argument, but when you get little to no help from your teammates, it tends to be hard.

Anyways, Alex Rodriguez plays 3B, doesn't need to be traded to be motivated, and he annually puts up better regular season numbers than Manny Ramirez. Alex Rodriguez is easily more valuable than Manny Ramirez.

I'm sorry.

The correct answer is Carlos Quentin.

So you're saying it's great to have great season numbers...but if you suck in the playoffs (when it really counts)...that's ok? Thing about Manny is he's picked up a mediocre team...and great players do that.

I understand your comment about needing to be moved to be motivated...and rightly noted. But I disagree with your point of getting little help from your teammates. He's sucked period in the post season. Manny's post season stats speak for themselves. But I also understand him bein somewhat of a headcase during the regular season. So I guess it's give and take...pick your poison. I'd still take Manny in a heartbeat since he changes the entire dynamic of an offense. IMO...ARod doesn't.

Not long ago I would have said Arod. I have to go Manny. If only Jim,Javy and Jose could come off the books.

Manny Ramirez is a douche bag. He loafed this season with the Red Sox who have only paid him about $120 million. It was so bad, his TEAMMATES told management he needs to go. He gets "motivated" playing for a new contract, and suddenly he's a better player than ARod? Please. Barry Bonds was awful in the post season until later in his career. Frank Thomas has had 2 post season series where he failed to get a hit. It happens. ARod is a superior player. Manny could have been right up there with him, but he was the one who chose not to. He is pretty awesome when he wants to be, but that isn't everyday. He even took a couple of Septembers off with the Red Sox with mystery injuries. God help whichever team opens the bank for him this winter.

Didn't A-Rod hit something like .286 with a HR in last year's playoffs? That's not eye-popping or anything but it's hardly terrible either. But I remember it only took about 6 hitless ABs before the media frenzy reached a fever pitch even though "Captain Clutch" Jeter wasn't doing s*** and was calmly grounding into DPs at the same time. A-Rod didn't suck with the Mariners in the playoffs either IIRC, it wasn't until he got to New York.

A-Rod's "struggles" in the playoffs are a partially true, but ridiculously overblown media narrative.

David Eckstein also won a WS MVP.

He's also one of the best right handed hitters of all time.

He also put up a .299/.398/.529 line with the Red Sox, at the age of 36. I guess compared to his obscene 213 OPS+ with the Dodgers those numbers could be considered "loafing," but that's almost exactly the same production the Red Sox are getting from Jason Bay. Is he "loafing" too?

Manny and A-Rod have very similar lifetime stats, as well. I don't think you can declare either one as "better." It really just seems like you don't like Manny Ramirez, so you find second-hand accounts of how he isn't liked by his teammates, ignore his actual production, and claim that makes Ramirez somehow inferior to A-Rod/whoever else.

Do you have access to their VORP numbers? A-Rod does better in WARP, but interested in VORP of the two and can't find it on baseballprospectus.com

Rodriguez and Ramirez have career OPS+ within 7 points of each other, in almost the same career length (15/16 years). Their career highs in OPS+ are within 9 points of each other. If Ramirez can post these numbers while "not trying," he's obviously a much better player than A-Rod on potential alone.

This should do it.
Rodriguez does seem to win the VORP battle as well, at least in the past 3 years.

Interesting. I also learned from that link that this Albert Pujols guy may have a clue on how to hit!

They are both fantastic first ballot hall of famers, if I had to make the choice I would go with A-Rod, but if you told me I was "stuck" with Manny I wouldn't be overly dissapointed

I'd much rather lose 10 years straight in the playoff because of non-exsistant "clutch" hitting, than to sit at home every October because the hitting wasn't as good regardless as how "clutch" it could have been.

Keep your Geoff Blums Luis Sojos. I'll continue to take the A-Rod and Sabathia type players.

Jason Bay also isn't walking away from $40 million the next 2 seasons which is one of the conditions Manny put on being traded. Teams cannot exercise the $20 million a year options. At least you know with ARod, he's going to show up and play hard every game. That and Madonna will be watching.

Similar offensively. Defensively, no contest. ARod could still probably play SS at least as well as Manny can play LF. The title of the thread was who was more valuable. Its amazing how many nauseating "Manny being Manny" moments are forgotten because some guy forced his way off a team that paid him handsomely and treated him well and went to play for a contract with a team located by his agent, Scott Boras, and was awesome. Sorry, you'll never get that Manny for a whole season if he's signed for multiple years anymore.

And Rodriguez played a pretty solid SS for quite a few years and is now a suitable defensive 3Bman. Manny Ramirez plays a terrible defense in LF. ARod also has a 40-40 season under his belt and he could get his 300th stolen base sometime next season. Add to it that he's going into his age 33 season, and it's quite obvious who the more valuable player is.

A-rod is one of the best players ever, Manny is one of the best RH hitters ever. There is definately a difference. Of course Manny also has had the ability to get on team and make them winners, and A-rod seems to have the opposite effect.

Manny has had the luxury of playing for better teams than ARod. The Mariners became a power. The Rangers were and are awful. Its because of Manny the Indians became winners? You do know the Indians won the AL Central the year Manny left? They also had guys like Colon, Lofton, Belle, Thome, Alomar, Vizquel over the years. It was all Manny the Red Sox won? How come it didn't happen right away? And if it was all him, how in the world did the Red Sox make the playoffs without him this year. The Dodgers won 84 games. Its not like that is some outstanding team. They were 30-25 with Manny, a decent record, but not eye popping. ARod gets slammed because of the Mariners season after he left, but how far did they advance in the playoffs? The year ARod left and his last season, the Mariners lost in the ALCS. Texas had a better record without him, but really are you going to the credit that to his not being on the team? If anyone thinks a 36 year old meathead, albeit a great hitter when he wants to be, is more valuable than a guy who probably will go down as the greatest player ever, you might be as nuts as Manny. At least with ARod, you can always count on him giving his best effort.

Yeah . . . for a guy who can show up in regular season play.

Or should that even be green? Because he can show good #'s in regular season play, but can't produce in the postseason. Manny has been in 4 World Series team's, two which have given him two WS ring's that he can proudly wear on his finger's. A-Rod has NADA!

The question of this thread was simply "Who's worth more . . ." and if you break down both players you will have results that are arguably good when talking about their offensive approach. But, you also have to look at their post-season experience and it's quite obvious that Manny is the more valuable player.

Alex Rodriguez's postseason line - .279/.361/.483/.844. Not fantastic, but people seem to be pointing out that he's been absolutely beyond terrible...that looks respectable.

In 2007, he put up a .267/.353/.467/.820...again, not fantastic, but he more than held his own. He was also very good in the 2004 postseason and even put up an .894 OPS in their collapse against Boston. Prior to that, he was pretty much a one-man wrecking crew.

Where he struggled the most were the 2005 and 2006 postseasons...35 plate appearances. ARod is the most unclutch baseball player in the history of the universe because he struggled for a 35 plate appearance stretch in the postseason.

Get f***ing real.

I also enjoy the World Series ring argument, because it's one of the worst arguments one can make. Is Gavin Floyd a better pitcher than John Danks because he won more games? Are David Eckstein and Timo Perez better players than Alex Rodriguez because they've won two? or equals to Manny because they can put the same number of rings on their fingers?

So your choosing sides with A-Rod because Manny has his on-stage antics that are contributing to his "look at me" performances? How come no one ever talks about his "look at me, I'm hitting for average, on base percentage, and power" performance's that he continuously puts out year in and year out.

Sure, every good team has to have a 25 man roster, but there's always big game contributors that can carry a team and Manny is one of them. In A-Rod's case, he hasn't helped the Yankee's the last three season's with his .267, .071, and .133 batting averages.

And you can make a case of having teammates that are no better (e.g. the Yankees of this decade). Isn't there always a person in the clubhouse who should try to give the team some sort of boost? If I were to pick sides on that, I would not depend on Mr. A-Rod.

Whoah there . . . now your putting names on the table that can't be comparable to the player in discussion. Who is this Timo Perez that you speak of?

You know, as well as I do, that Manny has earned those World Series rings. I am not taking anything away from Eckstein or Timo, but when you look at the salary differences and the attitude's of these player's, there is a very broad horizon. Manny is getting the big bucks and in turn he is performing. A-Rod is getting much more but showing much less.

Without a doubt its A-Rod, he can play close to gold glove defense at 3B.. was a gold glover at SS. He can still steal a base for you at a very efficient rate, younger, more power, and dont have all the stupid antics you get with Manny. Not to say A-Rod doesnt come with some baggage, but far less so than that of Manny.

Because there are 30+ other guys on his team that helped get the team to the playoffs, and then there are 24 other guys on his team during the playoffs? Did Manny win those rings all by himself?

Who's had the better career, Ken Griffey Jr or Manny Ramirez? It's not an entirely flawed argument, but if you are using rings, than the answer should certainly be Manny Ramirez, right?

It's also funny that you still have yet to acknowledge that you are tearing ARod apart because of 35 PAs. How on earth does that make sense?

So you agree with me that A-rod is worth more?

^^^^

With A-Rod I know he's going to give me max effort every night. With Manny, once he has the cash guaranteed, I'm not certain who is going to show up. Advantage A-Rod.

Isn't A-Rod's agent Scott Boras? Didn't he go to the Rangers because they had the highest bid in for him, even though other, better teams wanted him? Didn't he ask for the trade from the Rangers to the Yankees? Didn't he also opt-out of his old contract, become a free agent, then re-sign with the Yankees for even more money? Using A-Rod as a paragon of contract virtue isn't really a good idea. Might want to rethink that one.

Yeah, you don't like Manny Ramirez. I get it.

So when has Manny Ramirez not produced?

I'll agree that A-Rod is theoretically more valuable because of his good defense at a premium position (SS), and good defense at an average position (3B). Giving a player grief for playing a mediocre LF is about as logical as getting on a DH for not contributing to defensive win shares, though. LF is the least important defensive position, and we were doing just fine with Quentin's sub-par defense out there this season.

Rodriguez is more valuabe because of his all around abilities but Manny is the greatest run producer of all time. Bonds had his run with the most dominant years in baseball history but what Manny does is downright amazing. He's also easily one of my all time favorite ball players.

I love this whole "Manny never fails when it matters" line of argument. Granted the source is a little out of date, but through 2005 Manny had a career playoff batting line of .257/.348/.492/.840. That looks AWFULLY similar to that of one Alex Rodriguez. People seem to forget that the Indians made the playoffs 5 times with Manny on the roster without winning the big one.

Exactly. Someone please answer this for me too.

sounds like you're cherry picking stats. Through 2005? Well we are in 2008.

That would be impossible, they are both incredible athletes and two of the best playing right now. To to try and prove one hasn't produced is silly. To rephrase my comment, in deciding between two of the greatest to ever play the game, I'll take Alex being Alex to Manny being Manny. That's not to discredit Manny, but if I'm betting $30 mil a year, I'll take A-Rod being A-Rod.

Manny won't get 30M a year though.

If he were 5 or 6 years younger though...

I don't know about that. I am leaning towards saying he won't. But, I can't guarantee that. I bet you would have said arod won't get 252 M over 10 ( as would I ) . There are worse ways to spend 30 million . (count,Javy and Jim quickly comes to mind)

The problem is that Manny dogs it a lot. Trust me, I see him play all the time. He plays just hard enough, but he has the ability to be much better. Therefore, most people would take Rodriguez over him.

I'm not cherry-picking, the source is simply out of date. I really don't feel like going through and re-calculating the stats to include the last two seasons. Those stats also comprise 81 games and 307 at bats, so it's not a supremely small chunk of data.

Edit-nevermind, I found a better source that's up to date...

A-Rod is at .279/.373/.483/.856

Manny is at .286/.396/.550/.946

Manny's really killed the ball the last two seasons, and that adds 22 games to his totals.

So yeah, he's been better, but one solid post-season from A-Rod and it's a push, especially since Manny has 103 career post-season appearances to A-Rod's 39.

Who cares? He "dogs" it at a hall-of-fame caliber. I don't care if he takes a dump in the outfield every game if he posts a .900+ OPS, which he's done pretty much every year of his career.

I really just can't understand the Manny Ramirez hatred going on in this thread.

As a 36 year old playing for the Dodgers, you see what he's capable of when he wants to give maximum effort. The reason I don't like him is because he gets paid tons of money to play a game. Full effort should be expected. If he can't give maximum effort at least for a good portion of the time, he's an ass to me. Sorry. Ask the Red Sox and their fans what they thought about his annual mysterious injuries every September. How would you feel if you could only go see him play a couple of times a year and the day you go he's sitting out because he claims to be hurt when he's not? Or how do you explain to your kid, his OPS is over .900 its OK to run to first in 6 seconds so the other team can turn a DP? His yearly whining about wanting to be traded, then taking it back gets a little old too, and I don't even follow the Red Sox. He won't hit anywhere near as well as he hit for the Dodgers if he signs a multi-year contract and will come up with some fake injury to sit for a long stretch too next year. As good of a hitter as he is, KW wouldn't touch him.

...Yet you somehow know all this. M'kay.

Thank you - this is something I've said about A-Rod many times elsewhere, mostly to Yankee fans, but didn't really have the energy to get into again here.

I wouldn't have guessed that much money for Arod, but that was also a different market.