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caulfield12
The sooner we part ways with Kenny Williams, the better off we are for the future.

This latest debacle with Chris Sale was foreseeable a mile away. You would think he might have learned with Santos? Traded him for what looks like the equivalent of another Nick Blackburn in Molina who will at best be a 4th or 5th starter. So he's going to turn Sale into another Santos then trade him away, too, but only after he signs a long-term extension, so everyone can wonder what the hell is going on in Chicago?

For the future, they'd actually be better off just giving Sale a pre-emptive TJ surgery before he ruptures the elbow at some point in the indeterminate future and then have to wait another year more until he can start again. Of course, you can't force Chris to do that against his will.

They've taken an A ball pitcher from a year ago who just started to build and gain in confidence, named him the closer because they apparently didn't have enough depth in Thornton and Ohman (and because they didn't want to or couldn't pay Frasor) and messed him up. Santiago should be starting at Birmingham or Charlotte, doesn't matter where. He's not a reliever going forward, especially with Sale now doomed to the pen.

Put Sale into Thornton's role and make Reed the closer. Trade Thornton to the highest bidder. Rinse, repeat, do the same thing with Jesse Crain when he comes back and proves himself and gets his FB back to 93-96.


So they've already moved around or messed up Beckham (2 changes), Viciedo (3-4 changes), Santiago and Chris Sale. Who's next?

All because our GM left us dangerously lacking in depth at the major league level by making idiotic trades like the Mark Teahen move, then signing him to an extension, then having to trade away our best pitcher last year at the break because Williams just wanted to dump his mistake from the roster.

Other than DeAza, Humber and Santos (and the jury's still out because at least 50% of us believe Molina will end up another Zach Stewart and Marco Paddy another Dave Wilder minus the bribes and gay night clubs), absolutely nothing KW has done has worked out.

At a certain point, it's not just bad luck (Peavy/Dunn/Rios), it's bad decision-making, planning and strategic thinking.

This is the biggest crisis for the White Sox since the White Flag, signing Albert Belle and going with "The Kids Can Play" campaign.

This offseason, the whole future of this organization was tied into the performances of Sale, Morel, Viciedo, Beckham and Molina. Even with Dunn, Rios and Peavy contributing, there's still way too many holes if you remove Sale from the rotation and that's also assuming Beckham and Viciedo hit.

It's gotten to the point the last week or so with Danks showing diminished velocity (hope and pray it's a "dead arm" and not something else) and Alexei Ramirez an OPS in the 400's...you just start to wonder what else can go wrong with this organization?

There are some glimmers of hope in Phegley, Mitchell, Saladino, Thompson, Castro...but we need some minor miracles now to contend in 2014.


1) Good trades (crosses fingers, hopefully no other GM could be THIS bad)
2) Reed and/or Jones to become a lockdown closer
3) Santiago/Castro/Molina/Axelrod/Hernandez (2 of them) to become competent big leaguers
4) Viciedo/Beckham/Morel and Flowers/Phegley (one or the other) to make it

P.S. Zach Stewart sucks, thanks for nothing Marco Paddy!
Baron
Well thank you for another fire Kenny thread. We sure needed more of those.
caulfield12
QUOTE (Baron @ May 4, 2012 -> 09:34 PM) *
Well thank you for another fire Kenny thread. We sure needed more of those.



The only difference is that I have defended him the whole offseason until today.

We've become the most irrelevant team in the major leagues under KW's watch. You can argue the Padres or the Astros, but both those teams seem to have better plans and new/exciting/innovative GM's in place that will stop trying to pound round pegs into square holes.
Baron
QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 4, 2012 -> 10:37 PM) *
The only difference is that I have defended him the whole offseason until today.

We've become the most irrelevant team in the major leagues under KW's watch. You can argue the Padres or the Astros, but both those teams seem to have better plans and new/exciting/innovative GM's in place that will stop trying to pound round pegs into square holes.



I would not say that the Astros have a better plan.
caulfield12
QUOTE (Baron @ May 4, 2012 -> 09:41 PM) *
I would not say that the Astros have a better plan.



Obviously we are very early in the Luhnow era. He was brought in here primarily to beef of the farm system and he hasn't had any significant opportunities to do that yet. He's only made two significant trades so far and the clock hasn't even started on those yet. So, let me go with what I do know. Luhnow seems to have a keener understanding of his own players' value than either Ed Wade or Tim Purpura. Of course, that is like saying you are the valedictorian at summer school. In particular, he took three players when their value was highest and spun them into four young players that can either help now or down the road. Mark Melancon was an okay closer, but he profiled as more of a setup man/middle reliever. Those are a dime a dozen. He parlayed that into a starting shortstop and potential member of the rotation. Now, whether Lowrie or Weiland work out is anyone's best guess and you can haggle over whether they themselves are good players, but the fact is that he recognized that Melancon was not going to be anymore valuable.

Fastforward to yesterday's deal and I come away very impressed. If his second player is rated as highly as the first then he got two of the Royals top twenty prospects (regarded as the deepest system in baseball by some) in exchange for two players that might be slightly above replacement level. Humberto Quintero has 2.2 career wins above replacement and has never had as many as 1.0 in any season. In four big league seasons, Bourgeois had 1.6 WAR (1.2 last season). The likelihood of him producing more than one win at any point in the future is pretty slim. Both are solid role players that would help any team, but they are hardly the kind of players that would bring in any significant return. Yet, there was Luhnow pounding on the Royals desperation for a catcher. Picking up Landon Powell last week aides in that ability. So, if the PTBNL is a top twenty prospect in their system, he will have gotten a significantly better package for two players that should not be regulars anywhere than Wade got for Jeff Keppinger last season. Funny, but the Keppinger trade looks like a fleecing when compared to the package Kenny Williams got for Carlos Quentin and the player he got for Sergio Santos (plus the Melancon deal was also better than that). So, will these trades work out? Who knows, but at least we got a guy that recognizes the value of his own players and when they are at their peak.


http://evilwontwin.yuku.com/topic/17792/Lu...esses-Me-So-Far


Luhnow has a dual degree in business and engineering from the University of Pennsylvania and an MBA from Northwestern University.

Kenny Williams in his own mind acts like a Stanford grad, but Tiger Woods and Jerry Yang actually spent a lot more time there.

I'll trust the rocket scientist at this point.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/...in-lazy-sexism/ (this is pretty funny, too bad Cowley wasn't involved)
fathom
QUOTE (Baron @ May 5, 2012 -> 03:41 AM) *
I would not say that the Astros have a better plan.


They got some really good players at the deadline last year, which has really boosted their farm system.
Baron
No argument there
Baron
QUOTE (fathom @ May 4, 2012 -> 11:09 PM) *
They got some really good players at the deadline last year, which has really boosted their farm system.


Yes they did...but it seems like they are rushing some of them.
winninguglyin83
Hey, Kenny got Jeff Marquez (the next Contreras), Wilson Betemit, Jon Gilmore, Tyler Flowers and Ozzie Martinez.

what's your beef?
caulfield12
QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ May 4, 2012 -> 11:18 PM) *
Hey, Kenny got Jeff Marquez (the next Contreras), Wilson Betemit, Jon Gilmore, Tyler Flowers and Ozzie Martinez.

what's your beef?



Well, actually the next Jon Garland, but who cares anymore?

The Astros have the youngest team in the majors, so at least they have a clear direction. Other than Wandy Rodriguez and Carlos Lee, they've cleared almost every single veteran from that roster, the expensive ones at least. What about the Sox? We have Thornton, AJ, Peavy, Rios, Crain, Ohman, Konerko, Dunn, Ramirez, etc.

We're in no-man's land right now, neither young nor old, but not enough talent.
Jake
I don't think this is even worth responding to. But I want you to know that you are overreacting.
caulfield12
QUOTE (Jake @ May 4, 2012 -> 11:21 PM) *
I don't think this is even worth responding to. But I want you to know that you are overreacting.



No, not really.

The exact same thing happened in 2011. Remember? Everyone was saying it's going to be hard to recover, it's going to be hard to recover...look at the 2006 Cardinals or the 2005 Astros, etc., etc.

This isn't about the Indians being in first place. It's the fact that when we had a chance to get off to a good start and take first place by the horns, we completely whiffed. The Tigers played like crap for most of the first 4 months (except for Cabrera, Verlander and Valverde) and they won going away at the wire like Secretariat.

2-8 in the last 10 games isn't far from our 5-19 fall at approximately the same time and further irrelevancy.

Our main advantage coming into this season compared to last was having Chris Sale in the rotation. Now that's gone. The one thing that has stayed the same is that Matt Thornton doesn't miss bats when he throws only straight 95-96 MPH fastballs in bad locations and behind in the count.

2009. 2010. 2011. 2012. There's a pattern that simply won't be broken with the same people in charge. It's not going to be enough to change the manager, clearly.

fathom
QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 04:29 AM) *
2009. 2010. 2011. 2012. There's a pattern that simply won't be broken with the same people in charge. It's not going to be enough to change the manager, clearly.


Curse of 2008
caulfield12
Santos injured. Quentin injured (be interesting to see how long it takes the SF Panda to recover from a similar injury to the Quentin 2008 one)...Ramirez with an OPS hovering around 500 and possibly 2-3 years older than his official MLB age, Floyd wildly erratic and maddeningly inconsistent, Danks causing us to question if the same contract wouldn't have been better put to use on Mark Buehrle for the fans' sake at least.

Juan Uribe leaves the team and becomes a post-season star with the Giants and his clutch RBI's are missed from that day on. Joe Crede is never replaced or seen again.

Javy, Swisher and Cabrera force themselves out of the equation for various reasons, leading to multiple bad KW moves/counter-moves.

DeWayne Wise is only remembered by Greg775 and Mark Buehrle.

greg775
Dwyane Wise is on the New York Yankees and got a hit tonight and Juan Pierre is hitting .330 for Philly.
Underrated around here.
Jordan4life
QUOTE (greg775 @ May 5, 2012 -> 12:47 AM) *
Dwyane Wise is on the New York Yankees and got a hit tonight and Juan Pierre is hitting .330 for Philly.
Underrated around here.



lolhitting.gif Wow, greg. I'll always like you. But it's clearly apparent now that you want the Sox to suck because your hero is no longer manager. You're not fooling anybody in the gamethreads. Juan Pierre? Really? lol. That's not going to last long. Phillies fans already despise him because of his total ineptitude on the basepaths.
knightni
Kenny Williams: Domino Effect
How The Want of a Top Starting Pitcher (Javy Vazquez) Perpetually Destroyed a Minor League System



knightni
Javy Vazquez cost Chris Young.

No Chris Young, they were forced to struggle with Anderson in CF, then trade away Gio Gonzalez for Swisher. Because Swisher sucked as a CF and in the clubhouse, they gave him away for scraps. Following, they needed a CF still, so they wasted a bunch of money acquiring Rios' contract. They traded Richard to SD to get a big salary SP Peavy who ended up being hurt for 2.5 seasons. They wanted Adam Dunn because Rios wasn't a good enough hitter, they dealt Dan Hudson and David Holmberg to Arizona for Edwin Jackson because Rizzo wanted a vet SP instead of a rookie. Then, Rizzo backed out of the trade and the White Sox ended up giving him a 1st round pick free next year and signed Dunn to a deal. Rios, Peavy, and Dunn were so expensive that they couldn't re-sign their biggest fan draw - Mark Buehrle - and their attendance has plummeted.


So, they lost Young, Gonzalez, Richard, Hudson, Holmberg, a #1 and Buehrle.

They got Zach Stewart, Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, and three albatross contracts.
chisoxt
QUOTE (knightni @ May 5, 2012 -> 09:09 AM) *
Javy Vazquez cost Chris Young.

No Chris Young, they were forced to struggle with Anderson in CF, then trade away Gio Gonzalez for Swisher because he sucked as a CF and in the clubhouse. Then they gave away Swisher for scraps. Following, they needed a CF still, so they wasted a bunch of money acquiring Rios' contract. They traded Richard to SD to get a big salary SP Peavy who ended up being hurt for 2.5 seasons. They wanted Adam Dunn because Rios wasn't a good enough hitter, they dealt Dan Hudson and David Holmberg to Arizona for Edwin Jackson because Rizzo wanted a vet SP instead of a rookie. Then, Rizzo backed out of the trade and the White Sox ended up giving him a 1st round pick free next year and signed Dunn to a deal. Rios, Peavy, and Dunn were so expensive that they couldn't re-sign their biggest fan draw - Mark Buehrle - and their attendance has plummeted.


So, they lost Young, Gonzalez, Richard, Hudson, Holmberg, a #1 and Buehrle.

They got Zach Stewart, Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, and three albatross contracts.

Willliams has been awful. This sounds wierd but Sox fans will pay dearly for that world championship in 2005 for many years to come. All because Williams and Guillen wreaklessly managed every once of political capital they earned winning it.

Unfortuately, I have zero faith in Reinsdorf hiring the right guy to replace the idiot. Given Jerry's penchant for making those 'Out of the Box' (read:wierd) hires, my fear, as alluded to by others, is that his first phone call will be to his buddy, Tony LaRussa.
Chicago White Sox
QUOTE (greg775 @ May 5, 2012 -> 12:47 AM) *
Dwyane Wise is on the New York Yankees and got a hit tonight and Juan Pierre is hitting .330 for Philly.
Underrated around here.

Troll! You may have everyone else fooled but not me.

How the f*** is Dwayne Wise relevant to anything here? Oh wait, he got a hit last night so he must be underrated right? He's neither good or young, so what is your f***ing point? Thanks for the "catch", but otherwise f*** you Dwayne Wise.

As for Juan Pierre, there is nothing underrated about a slappy leadoff hitter who has no power, doesn't walk, is not an effective base stealer, has a noodle arm, and is afraid of pop flies. Nothing in the slightest. I don't give a f*** if he was the first one to the stadium everyday with his lunchpail to perfect that slap swing of his. Juan at this point in his career is nothing more than an empty batting average.

But clearly both players needed to be brought up for no apparent reason. Thank you troll for adding a little more anger to an already terrible sports day here in Chicago.
caulfield12
Major League Baseball released the complete 2011 draft order this afternoon, and the Nationals learned they received the 23rd pick, where the Chicago White Sox would have picked in the first round, and the 34th pick, the very first pick in Compensatory Round A, as compensation for losing Adam Dunn to free agency. Along with the sixth overall choice, earned thanks to their 69-93 record, the Nationals have three of the first 34 picks.

Itís a great opportunity to add talent, but it will mean a significant financial commitment in terms or signing bonuses. Last year, the Nationals signed Bryce Harper, Sammy Solis, A.J. Cole and Robbie Ray with signing bonuses well over the MLB-recommended slot.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nation...hXZdD_blog.html

Alex Meyer RHP R / R 6' 9" 220 01/03/1990 1 23 08/15/2011
Brian Goodwin OF L / L 6' 1" 195 11/02/1990 CA 34 08/15/2011

In a further bit of irony, the Nationals used that pick to select the same player that we couldn't sign in the 17th round in 2009. He went on to the Univ. of North Carolina and is their version of our own Mr. Mitchell, currently in Hagerstown (SAL).

In Meyer, they have another solid starting pitching prospect out of the University of Kentucky who turned down a high school offer from the Boston Red Sox in 2009 to sign.


winninguglyin83
QUOTE (knightni @ May 5, 2012 -> 09:09 AM) *
Javy Vazquez cost Chris Young.

No Chris Young, they were forced to struggle with Anderson in CF, then trade away Gio Gonzalez for Swisher because he sucked as a CF and in the clubhouse. Then they gave away Swisher for scraps. Following, they needed a CF still, so they wasted a bunch of money acquiring Rios' contract. They traded Richard to SD to get a big salary SP Peavy who ended up being hurt for 2.5 seasons. They wanted Adam Dunn because Rios wasn't a good enough hitter, they dealt Dan Hudson and David Holmberg to Arizona for Edwin Jackson because Rizzo wanted a vet SP instead of a rookie. Then, Rizzo backed out of the trade and the White Sox ended up giving him a 1st round pick free next year and signed Dunn to a deal. Rios, Peavy, and Dunn were so expensive that they couldn't re-sign their biggest fan draw - Mark Buehrle - and their attendance has plummeted.


So, they lost Young, Gonzalez, Richard, Hudson, Holmberg, a #1 and Buehrle.

They got Zach Stewart, Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, and three albatross contracts.


bingo!

Time for Kenny to fix the Oakland Raiders.
caulfield12
I'll take knightni's list and expand upon it (in another irony, Richard and Buehrle faced each other last night while our future Randy Johnson's career prospects careened rapidly downhill)


KW lost/traded:
Chris Young
Gio Gonzalez
Clayton Richard
Daniel Hudson
Edwin Jackson
David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system)
Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn
Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn
Mark Buehrle
Sergio Santos
Nick Swisher
Ryan Sweeney
Fautino DeLosSantos
Javy Vazquez
Jason Frasor
Jim Thome

They got Zach Stewart, Mark Kotsay, Andruw Jones, Manny Ramirez, Nestor Molina, Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, LHP Santos Rodriguez, waiver/release candidate Jon Gilmore, Jaye/Webb (Blue Jays) and three albatross contracts (check that, POSSIBLY FOUR, if you add John Danks to the list).

And there's another bone to pick with Williams, if that's not enough.

We signed Dayan Viciedo with the idea there was a 50% possibility he could stick at 3B because of his arm. Because we lost Joe Crede to injury and failed to re-sign Juan Uribe, KW got super desperate and eventually made one of his worst moves, shockingly trading for Mark Teahen and then inexlicably extending his contract. In the meantime, we were forced to move Gordon Beckham out of his natural position and to one that was new and unfamiliar to him in the middle of his rookie season. Because Teahen was so bad, we eventually had to dump him to save money...and because he had to be included in the trade due to KW's poor decision-making, we got absolutely nothing serviceable back in return for Edwin Jackson.

Without a position for Viciedo to play, he was forced into the outfield, which precipitated the trade of Quentin to the Padres (since he couldn't DH with Dunn already on the payroll for 4 years). If nothing else, Quentin was a slugging force to be reckoned with when healthy, which is more than you can say for 50-60% of our current line-up. At least that move was understandable, all things considered, but our offense would have been much more dangerous with Viciedo at 3B and Quentin still in the OF.

Every judgement bad, whether it was projecting Brian Anderson as a future Torii Hunter, Josh Fields, thinking Viciedo could play 3B, thinking Chris Sale had the durability and mechanics to last as a starter, or that Santiago could be a major league closer.

Chris Sale was the 5th watertight bulkhead on the RMS Titanic (aka White Sox organization).


Andrews: From this moment on, no matter what KW does, the White Sox will founder. Ismay: But this organization can't sink! Andrews: She is made of iron (aka a series of bad decision after bad decision), sir. I assure you, she can. And she will. It is a sabremetrics certainty.
Dick Allen
QUOTE (knightni @ May 5, 2012 -> 04:09 AM) *
Javy Vazquez cost Chris Young.

No Chris Young, they were forced to struggle with Anderson in CF, then trade away Gio Gonzalez for Swisher because he sucked as a CF and in the clubhouse. Then they gave away Swisher for scraps. Following, they needed a CF still, so they wasted a bunch of money acquiring Rios' contract. They traded Richard to SD to get a big salary SP Peavy who ended up being hurt for 2.5 seasons. They wanted Adam Dunn because Rios wasn't a good enough hitter, they dealt Dan Hudson and David Holmberg to Arizona for Edwin Jackson because Rizzo wanted a vet SP instead of a rookie. Then, Rizzo backed out of the trade and the White Sox ended up giving him a 1st round pick free next year and signed Dunn to a deal. Rios, Peavy, and Dunn were so expensive that they couldn't re-sign their biggest fan draw - Mark Buehrle - and their attendance has plummeted.


So, they lost Young, Gonzalez, Richard, Hudson, Holmberg, a #1 and Buehrle.

They got Zach Stewart, Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, and three albatross contracts.

This is pretty good, and most likely at least 80% true. I blame the entire Dunn contract on listening to Ozzie concerning the DH position and not signing Thome to a $1 million contract in 2010. Not only did it lead to overpaying for Dunn, it also led to paying Manny Ramirez 4 times what it would have taken to sign Thome for one month and 2 RBI . KW has made some really bad decisions the past few seasons. He does need to go but he's not the reason the Sox lost last night.

Letting Peavy face Cabrera wasn't wise. That cost a run. Thornton gave up a broken bat hit, and then a bad mistake on 0-2 where Peralta lit a line drive out of one of the few areas you can hit a line drive out of Comerica Park.
caulfield12
QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 06:23 AM) *
This is pretty good, and most likely at least 80% true. I blame the entire Dunn contract on listening to Ozzie concerning the DH position and not signing Thome to a $1 million contract in 2010. Not only did it lead to overpaying for Dunn, it also led to paying Manny Ramirez 4 times what it would have taken to sign Thome for one month and 2 RBI . KW has made some really bad decisions the past few seasons. He does need to go but he's not the reason the Sox lost last night.

Letting Peavy face Cabrera wasn't wise. That cost a run. Thornton gave up a broken bat hit, and then a bad mistake on 0-2 where Peralta lit a line drive out of one of the few areas you can hit a line drive out of Comerica Park.



And how many hits like that has he given up in crucial situations since he was acquired?

He can't miss bats when the opposing batters are waiting on a straight fastball (ahead in the count)...he has the worst knack for attracting swinging bunts, flares, bloopers, bleeders, infield singles into holes, broken bats, Texas Leaguers, shanks, but they ALWAYS seem to happen to him in critical situations!!!

It's a mathematical certainty with Thornton because of his arsenal, which is essentially 1 pitch most of the time.

I guess we'll see how valuable he really is when KW puts him on the open market. He has zero value to this organization going forward, except for acquiring prospects and/or clearing his salary from the payroll.
Reddy
i approve of this thread.
Dick Allen
QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:36 AM) *
And how many hits like that has he given up in crucial situations since he was acquired?

He can't miss bats when the opposing batters are waiting on a straight fastball (ahead in the count)...he has the worst knack for attracting swinging bunts, flares, bloopers, bleeders, infield singles into holes, broken bats, Texas Leaguers, shanks, but they ALWAYS seem to happen to him in critical situations!!!

It's a mathematical certainty with Thornton because of his arsenal, which is essentially 1 pitch most of the time.

I guess we'll see how valuable he really is when KW puts him on the open market. He has zero value to this organization going forward, except for acquiring prospects and/or clearing his salary from the payroll.

Matt Thornton can't miss bats? The stats prove otherwise, but you are on a roll.
caulfield12
QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 10:31 AM) *
Matt Thornton can't miss bats? The stats prove otherwise, but you are on a roll.



He especially does a great job missing Travis Hafner's bat, or Jim Thome's bat, or Peralta's bat, haven't you noticed?

Overall statistics can mask or hide the reality...when the game's on the line with Thornton out there in the 9th inning in a tie game, with the lead or with opposing runners in scoring position, something can and usually will go wrong.

Reddy
QUOTE (Dick Allen @ May 5, 2012 -> 09:31 AM) *
Matt Thornton can't miss bats? The stats prove otherwise, but you are on a roll.

his K/9 this year is at a career low. so... the stats DONT prove otherwise, and it is you, sir, who is on a roll.
Jake
There's nothing to make me think that Matt Thornton won't thrive in a setup role.

For some reason, in innings 6-8 hitters don't know how to hit a guy that throws all fastballs. They just never hit him. In inning 9, all gets solved.
elrockinMT
We are struggling a bit and have lost I think 8 of the last 11 or maybe it's 9 of the last 11. I can't remember. All I konw is it is more fun to win. We should all step back a bit instead of biting each others heads off because we don't agree with someone's take on things. It is a long season and no reason to make it longer with all this fightng back and forth.

Now for the original post topic and that is how Marty is right half the time. Well, ok but is he right the half the time he might write something you agree with or wrong half the time when he doesn't? I sure feel strongly both ways about that.
elrockinMT
QUOTE (knightni @ May 5, 2012 -> 08:52 AM) *
Kenny Williams: Domino Effect
How The Want of a Top Starting Pitcher (Javy Vazquez) Perpetually Destroyed a Minor League System



I liked your take on this and the follow up conversations
Jerksticks
QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 4, 2012 -> 10:29 PM) *
The sooner we part ways with Kenny Williams, the better off we are for the future.

This latest debacle with Chris Sale was foreseeable a mile away. You would think he might have learned with Santos? Traded him for what looks like the equivalent of another Nick Blackburn in Molina who will at best be a 4th or 5th starter. So he's going to turn Sale into another Santos then trade him away, too, but only after he signs a long-term extension, so everyone can wonder what the hell is going on in Chicago?

For the future, they'd actually be better off just giving Sale a pre-emptive TJ surgery before he ruptures the elbow at some point in the indeterminate future and then have to wait another year more until he can start again. Of course, you can't force Chris to do that against his will.

They've taken an A ball pitcher from a year ago who just started to build and gain in confidence, named him the closer because they apparently didn't have enough depth in Thornton and Ohman (and because they didn't want to or couldn't pay Frasor) and messed him up. Santiago should be starting at Birmingham or Charlotte, doesn't matter where. He's not a reliever going forward, especially with Sale now doomed to the pen.

Put Sale into Thornton's role and make Reed the closer. Trade Thornton to the highest bidder. Rinse, repeat, do the same thing with Jesse Crain when he comes back and proves himself and gets his FB back to 93-96.


So they've already moved around or messed up Beckham (2 changes), Viciedo (3-4 changes), Santiago and Chris Sale. Who's next?

All because our GM left us dangerously lacking in depth at the major league level by making idiotic trades like the Mark Teahen move, then signing him to an extension, then having to trade away our best pitcher last year at the break because Williams just wanted to dump his mistake from the roster.

Other than DeAza, Humber and Santos (and the jury's still out because at least 50% of us believe Molina will end up another Zach Stewart and Marco Paddy another Dave Wilder minus the bribes and gay night clubs), absolutely nothing KW has done has worked out.

At a certain point, it's not just bad luck (Peavy/Dunn/Rios), it's bad decision-making, planning and strategic thinking.

This is the biggest crisis for the White Sox since the White Flag, signing Albert Belle and going with "The Kids Can Play" campaign.

This offseason, the whole future of this organization was tied into the performances of Sale, Morel, Viciedo, Beckham and Molina. Even with Dunn, Rios and Peavy contributing, there's still way too many holes if you remove Sale from the rotation and that's also assuming Beckham and Viciedo hit.

It's gotten to the point the last week or so with Danks showing diminished velocity (hope and pray it's a "dead arm" and not something else) and Alexei Ramirez an OPS in the 400's...you just start to wonder what else can go wrong with this organization?

There are some glimmers of hope in Phegley, Mitchell, Saladino, Thompson, Castro...but we need some minor miracles now to contend in 2014.


1) Good trades (crosses fingers, hopefully no other GM could be THIS bad)
2) Reed and/or Jones to become a lockdown closer
3) Santiago/Castro/Molina/Axelrod/Hernandez (2 of them) to become competent big leaguers
4) Viciedo/Beckham/Morel and Flowers/Phegley (one or the other) to make it

P.S. Zach Stewart sucks, thanks for nothing Marco Paddy!


This just assumes so much it makes me sick. None of your points are the absolutes that you make them out to be.
oldsox
Caulfield, you wrote a couple of the best posts I have ever read at SoxTalk.
Marty34
With the Sale news, it's very difficult to see how the state of the franchise gets better before things get worse.
SI1020
Excellent analysis here, better than anything I've seen anywhere else to date. KW really has lost his mojo, the evidence is hard reality that just slaps you in the face when you look at it. I don't have much faith in the current regime to right the ship.
greg775
QUOTE (Jordan4life @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:08 AM) *
lolhitting.gif Wow, greg. I'll always like you. But it's clearly apparent now that you want the Sox to suck because your hero is no longer manager. You're not fooling anybody in the gamethreads. Juan Pierre? Really? lol. That's not going to last long. Phillies fans already despise him because of his total ineptitude on the basepaths.



QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ May 5, 2012 -> 11:08 AM) *
<!--quoteo(post=2591219:date=May 5, 2012 -> 12:47 AM:name=greg775)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (greg775 @ May 5, 2012 -> 12:47 AM) *</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dwyane Wise is on the New York Yankees and got a hit tonight and Juan Pierre is hitting .330 for Philly.
Underrated around here.
Troll! You may have everyone else fooled but not me.

How the f*** is Dwayne Wise relevant to anything here? Oh wait, he got a hit last night so he must be underrated right? He's neither good or young, so what is your f***ing point? Thanks for the "catch", but otherwise f*** you Dwayne Wise.

As for Juan Pierre, there is nothing underrated about a slappy leadoff hitter who has no power, doesn't walk, is not an effective base stealer, has a noodle arm, and is afraid of pop flies. Nothing in the slightest. I don't give a f*** if he was the first one to the stadium everyday with his lunchpail to perfect that slap swing of his. Juan at this point in his career is nothing more than an empty batting average.

But clearly both players needed to be brought up for no apparent reason. Thank you troll for adding a little more anger to an already terrible sports day here in Chicago.


1.) You are crazy if you think I want the Sox to lose and Robin to fail. Would I rather have Ozzie? Absolutely. I'm not following the Marlins; not even following Mark except as a casual fan with the box scores, updates if I hear he's 1-4 or something.
2 and 1.) Those who think I'm a troll need to get a new schtick. I brought up Pierre and Wise become somebody else did first. Yes I will stand up for players that i like. The New York Yankees obviously agree with me that Wise is a valuable guy to have. Pierre is what he is (cliche) but he's not the devil.

The first Wise comment was from Caufield saying: "DeWayne Wise is only remembered by Greg775 and Mark Buehrle." I responded, so I'm a troll.
CaliSoxFanViaSWside
Caulfield, you're right the Sox are a mess and it's mostly KW's fault. Maybe it's the pressure to always win now. You don't win fans don't show up. That's evident through Sox history which endangers the franchises' place in the city.

Like many I'll still watch and hope they win . I won't think too much about the future because none of us is promised tomorrow. Hope things improve but if not there's always 2005 to smile and be grateful about.
Marty34
QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ May 5, 2012 -> 02:11 PM) *
Caulfield, you're right the Sox are a mess and it's mostly KW's fault. Maybe it's the pressure to always win now. You don't win fans don't show up. That's evident through Sox history which endangers the franchises' place in the city.


The thing is, they'd likely be more profitable in a rebuilding situation than they are now. "All In" was a farce because it depended so much on Peavy coming back from surgery as an ace and that was if Dunn had hit as normal.

KW has overstated the talent on this team to the fanbase for years then when one of his mediocre creations of the last 3-4 years goes on a bit of a hot streak, he can't wait to get to the microphones and chastise the fans for not showing up. Ultimately those teams don't make the playoffs and you don't hear from him again. Of course there was nothing wrong with the talent.

The Danks contract extension is exhibit A of how arrogant this organization is in it's decision making. Nobody made what they deemed an acceptable offer for Danks so almost as if to prove other teams wrong they sign him to a $65M contract.
CaliSoxFanViaSWside
QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 5, 2012 -> 12:41 PM) *
The thing is, they'd likely be more profitable in a rebuilding situation than they are now. "All In" was a farce because it depended so much on Peavy coming back from surgery as an ace and that was if Dunn had hit as normal.

KW has overstated the talent on this team to the fanbase for years then when one of his mediocre creations of the last 3-4 years goes on a bit of a hot streak, he can't wait to get to the microphones and chastise the fans for not showing up. Ultimately those teams don't make the playoffs and you don't hear from him again. Of course there was nothing wrong with the talent.

The Danks contract extension is exhibit A of how arrogant this organization is in it's decision making. Nobody made what they deemed an acceptable offer for Danks so almost as if to prove other teams wrong they sign him to a $65M contract.



Well you're looking at Williams whereas I'm looking at the franchise history. 1919, 1959, 1983. From 1919 to 1983 that encompassed 50 years of my dads life and 25 of mine and what did the Sox do in that time? One thrown World Series , one lost World series and a division win. Fast forward to 1993 another 10 years on my dad's and my life another division winner , no World Series win. Fast Forward 2005 finally a World Series win. For 100 years and closer to 200 years combined Chicago baseball fans got 1 World series win. Williams was a big part of that. We're one up on the Cubs any way. I can't get too upset about a few years and series of moves that hasn't panned out the way all of us armchair GM's would like.

Is firing KW the right move? Who knows .You will never know the answer to that question .Can't see the future of a new GM versus how the future would go with KW as GM.
Marty34
Kenny Williams deserves all the credit he receives for the World Series win. The time for this franchise to move on has come though.
fathom
QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 5, 2012 -> 09:23 PM) *
Kenny Williams deserves all the credit he receives for the World Series win. The time for this franchise to move on has come though.


I can't see how anyone could argue differently
CaliSoxFanViaSWside
QUOTE (Marty34 @ May 5, 2012 -> 01:23 PM) *
Kenny Williams deserves all the credit he receives for the World Series win. The time for this franchise to move on has come though.

The time to move on was after the last out of 2005. That's always the case. No resting on one shining moment in 90 years . But forget ? Never.
JorgeFabregas
QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 4, 2012 -> 11:43 PM) *
Floyd wildly erratic and maddeningly inconsistent

Floyd is no more erratic or inconsistent than virtually any other starting pitcher. You can pretty much pencil him in for ~190 innings and an fWAR between 3.5 and 4.5.
caulfield12
QUOTE (JorgeFabregas @ May 6, 2012 -> 09:01 AM) *
Floyd is no more erratic or inconsistent than virtually any other starting pitcher. You can pretty much pencil him in for ~190 innings and an fWAR between 3.5 and 4.5.



But with his talent and his arsenal of pitches, he could or even SHOULD be great, a #1 or #2 starter. Since he was drafted, that's been his curse to live up to.

Blame it all on Don Cooper, right, for Floyd's "underachieving" and the accusations of being a "mental midget" that crop up from time to time?

JorgeFabregas
QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:13 AM) *
I'll take knightni's list and expand upon it (in another irony, Richard and Buehrle faced each other last night while our future Randy Johnson's career prospects careened rapidly downhill)


KW lost/traded:
Chris Young
Gio Gonzalez
Clayton Richard
Daniel Hudson
Edwin Jackson
David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system)
Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn
Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn
Mark Buehrle
Sergio Santos
Nick Swisher
Ryan Sweeney
Fautino DeLosSantos
Javy Vazquez
Jason Frasor
Jim Thome

They got Zach Stewart, Mark Kotsay, Andruw Jones, Manny Ramirez, Nestor Molina, Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, LHP Santos Rodriguez, waiver/release candidate Jon Gilmore, Jaye/Webb (Blue Jays) and three albatross contracts (check that, POSSIBLY FOUR, if you add John Danks to the list).

You'd have to actually have an accurate list of players lost or added for this list to make any sense at all. If you're going to include free agents not re-signed, then you need to include all free agents signed. Including Chris Young in this list suggests that you're going back to the pre-2006 off-season unless you're just cherry-picking. So you're missing acquisitions like Floyd, Danks, A. Ramirez, Humber, Sale, De Aza, etc.

It also doesn't make sense to make a list of ALL players lost during that time as if they never gained them to begin with. Acquire Thome in 2006 and then lose him in 2009? Put him in the loss category. You're going to have more players lost than kept over time, as you can only have so many players on a single roster. If you pick any team and count their players lost since 2006, there are going to be more than players on their current roster/in their current system. And you could then cherry pick the good players from the "lost" list.
caulfield12
QUOTE (JorgeFabregas @ May 6, 2012 -> 09:14 AM) *
You'd have to actually have an accurate list of players lost or added for this list to make any sense at all. If you're going to include free agents not re-signed, then you need to include all free agents signed. Including Chris Young in this list suggests that you're going back to the pre-2006 off-season unless you're just cherry-picking. So you're missing acquisitions like Floyd, Danks, A. Ramirez, Humber, Dunn, Sale, De Aza, etc. You're missing most of the useful players on the current roster, in fact. So you're just cherry picking.



You can add Dunn, although you wouldn't have "dunn" that 3 weeks ago.

Even if he performs at his statistical averages for the next three seasons, we're not getting anything resembling a great rate of return (overall), plus we lost the draft picks.

You're right, I didn't include Freddy Garcia on the "lost/missing" list. Thanks for that reminder.

Ramirez and Viciedo were signed as FA's, they weren't on the other side of the transactions involving the players I listed.

Humber and DeAza (and you can add Santos to that ledger)...and Sale, so they're once again not involved in the transactions the players I listed were.

And yeah, you could put Brandon McCarthy in "lost/missing" and John Danks' now seemingly bad contract on the other side of the ledger (if we're going to now count Dunn as a good or positive contract to have on the books, then Danks has to be put in the "bad" column based on April, right?)
JorgeFabregas
QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 6, 2012 -> 09:20 AM) *
And yeah, you could put Brandon McCarthy in "lost/missing" and John Danks' now seemingly bad contract on the other side of the ledger (if we're going to now count Dunn as a good or positive contract to have on the books, then Danks has to be put in the "bad" column based on April, right?)

John Danks has years of service with the White Sox and has racked up 16 fWAR. You can't compare the two at all. Again, you're going to have more players lost than added over time if the only players you count as added are the ones on the current roster.
KyYlE23
QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:13 AM) *
I'll take knightni's list and expand upon it (in another irony, Richard and Buehrle faced each other last night while our future Randy Johnson's career prospects careened rapidly downhill)


KW lost/traded:
Chris Young
Gio Gonzalez
Clayton Richard
Daniel Hudson
Edwin Jackson
David Holmberg (#7 prospect in DBacks system)
Brian Goodwin, OF (#5 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn
Alex Meyer, RHP (#6 prospect in a deep Nationals system) compensation for Dunn
Mark Buehrle
Sergio Santos
Nick Swisher
Ryan Sweeney
Fautino DeLosSantos
Javy Vazquez
Jason Frasor
Jim Thome


This list is hilarious. How can you hold against KW the draft picks that were acquired as compensation for Dunn? Just because of their ranking within the organization? De Los Santos? He of the 33 major league innings and blown out elbow? Holmberg has never been in the bigs.

There are plenty of reasons that KW could lose his job, but this list is a joke
KyYlE23
QUOTE (JorgeFabregas @ May 6, 2012 -> 09:28 AM) *
John Danks has years of service with the White Sox and has racked up 16 fWAR. You can't compare the two at all. Again, you're going to have more players lost than added over time if the only players you count as added are the ones on the current roster.


Not to mention it took McCarthy 5 years before he finally put it together
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