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2021 Spring Training Cuts Thread

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4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I guess in theory it could be possible to come up with that many short outings, but that's going to mean a lot of "pulling Cease or Rodon in the 3rd inning when they've given up 2 runs and there's another guy in scoring position", which really isn't great for those guys either, Cease especially. You're not going to want to pull Keuchel or Lynn that early even if they're having a bad day, it's not like they haven't worked through bad innings before, and there might be 1 game all year where you have to pull Giolito that early.

Ehhh.  I mean its not like Crochet couldn't cover innings 6-8 after a 5 inning start from whoever.  I think there are ways to make it work without handling the SP any differently than you normally would.  But I agree, it will definitely a challenge to surpass 80 innings if he's in the MLB pen all year.  

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2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Ehhh.  I mean its not like Crochet couldn't cover innings 6-8 after a 5 inning start from whoever.  I think there are ways to make it work without handling the SP any differently than you normally would.  But I agree, it will definitely a challenge to surpass 80 innings if he's in the MLB pen all year.  

It's not like he can't cover those, but if Crochet has kept the game close, aren't we all giving the 8th inning to Bummer?

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1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

I still absolutely loathe this plan with Kopech.  Dude should not in the majors and he should not be pitching out the pen.  

I'm right there with you brother.  Just forget about the service time issue.  He's clearly not ready to face MLB hitters.  Look at his spring stats.  He never did pitch a clean inning and he usually gave up a run or two.  What's the harm in sending him down to Charlotte and using him as an opener until he gets his command back.  Just seems like an idiotic use of resources at this time.

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18 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Glad Williams gets to go to the alternate site.

Me too.  The dude carries a high draft pick pedigree and he looks very athletic even though the stats don't scream out at you.  Could he figure it out late (26) in life?  Maybe.  I'd guess he's the best Charlotte outfielder and first one up if we lose a corner outfielder. 

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44 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

It's not like he can't cover those, but if Crochet has kept the game close, aren't we all giving the 8th inning to Bummer?

Yeah, but Bummer can't pitch every game.  There are plenty of ways to skin the cat.  

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Didn't know where else to put this but I wish there was an opening day game tonight like they used to do. Just one game to open the year the day before everyone else plays. As a kid, it was always one of my favorite nights (minus the fact it was on ESPN).

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5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I’m willing to bet that this bullpen is LaRussa saying he needs those guys now and getting his way. They’re going to wind up with both him and Crochet having pitched 60 innings this year and realize next offseason they can’t easily convert either of them to starters with that innings load.

If thus is the case you are correct. They both need to get near 80, then continue less stressful innings in the Fall

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5 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Ehhh.  I mean its not like Crochet couldn't cover innings 6-8 after a 5 inning start from whoever.  I think there are ways to make it work without handling the SP any differently than you normally would.  But I agree, it will definitely a challenge to surpass 80 innings if he's in the MLB pen all year.  

Sale pitched 71 innings out of the pen in 2011, and I’m guessing they have more of a “plan” for Crochet than they did for Sale. If they want Crochet to get to 80 innings, I don’t think it’ll be an issue if he stays healthy. 

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19 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Sale pitched 71 innings out of the pen in 2011, and I’m guessing they have more of a “plan” for Crochet than they did for Sale. If they want Crochet to get to 80 innings, I don’t think it’ll be an issue if he stays healthy. 

And no one else in that bullpen threw more than 65.1. Did we sign Hendricks for 65 innings? Ok if Kopech throws 55?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And no one else in that bullpen threw more than 65.1. Did we sign Hendricks for 65 innings? Ok if Kopech throws 55?

No. Kopech should throw more innings than Hendricks. There is a specific plan for Kopech to throw more innings than a typical reliever.  His plan has a different purpose. 

Of course some of it depends on how often he throws. Relievers throw more and put more stress on their arms than the innings indicate. The more they warmup and sit down increases the actual usage. I'm sure they will look at those pitches for Kopech as well.

Edited by ptatc
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2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

No. Kopech should throw more innings than Hendricks. There is a specific plan for Kopech to throw more innings than a typical reliever.  His plan has a different purpose. 

Of course some of it depends on how often he throws. Relievers throw more and put more stress on their arms than the innings indicate. The more they warmup and sit down increases the actual usage. I'm sure they will look at those pitches for Kopech as well.

So whose innings is he taking? 40 inning seasons for each of Bummer and Hendricks? 

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Just now, Balta1701 said:

So whose innings is he taking? 40 inning seasons for each of Bummer and Hendricks? 

I would say more like Ruiz and whoever else is at the bottom of the list. Unless you are purposely saying they should try to lose. 

 The other possibility is to have him extend his season into the Fall to get the innings.

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Just now, ptatc said:

I would say more like Ruiz and whoever else is at the bottom of the list. Unless you are purposely saying they should try to lose. 

 The other possibility is to have him extend his season into the Fall to get the innings.

I also think that the innings target would be 80-90. With warm-ups and sit downs that's about equal to 100 or so for a starter.

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38 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I also think that the innings target would be 80-90. With warm-ups and sit downs that's about equal to 100 or so for a starter.

In 2019, only 10 pitchers in all of MLB threw more than 80 innings as a reliever and Oakland was the only team with 2. You should start working on your post hoc justification for why this doesn’t happen now.

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6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

In 2019, only 10 pitchers in all of MLB threw more than 80 innings as a reliever and Oakland was the only team with 2. You should start working on your post hoc justification for why this doesn’t happen now.

I'd be surprised if any of those pitchers were SP of our quality in the bullpen.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

In 2019, only 10 pitchers in all of MLB threw more than 80 innings as a reliever and Oakland was the only team with 2. You should start working on your post hoc justification for why this doesn’t happen now.

The main reason is those pitchers had a job and a plan of purely being relievers.  The job description for Kopech is different.  They have a different plan than a typical reliever. As I said 80-90 is a good goal for him. If they don't get that, than I would agree it was the wrong move, with the caveat that they could extend his season into the Fall to get thise innings.

There will be no justification beyond that.

All I'm saying is that it can work. He would be on a similar plan in the minors.  The innings are the innings regardless of what level. The things pitching in the MLB does is having him continue to learn how to get out MLB hitters, which is different than the MiLB hitters.

We'll see how it goes for the season. As it stands now, I'm not particularly a fan of Katz but I will reserve judgement until after a full season.

Edited by ptatc

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ptatc said:

The main reason is those pitchers had a job and a plan of purely being relievers.  The job description for Kopech is different.  They have a different plan than a typical reliever. As I said 80-90 is a good goal for him. If they don't get that, than I would agree it was the wrong move, with the caveat that they could extend his season into the Fall to get thise innings.

There will be no justification beyond that.

All I'm saying is that it can work. He would be on a similar plan in the minors.  The innings are the innings regardless of what level. The things pitching in the MLB does is having him continue to learn how to get out MLB hitters, which is different than the MiLB hitters.

We'll see how it goes for the season. As it stands now, I'm not particularly a fan of Katz but I will reserve judgement until after a full season.

I think you'd find quite a few comps to what you're asking of Kopech in the TB Rays bullpens from 2017-2020 (extrapolated for short season.)

Their starters only go 3.5 to 4ish innings.

Or the Angels with their 6 man rotation to protect Ohtani.

Of course, they can extend him in blowouts that go either way as the mop up man just to get the innings in as well.

AFL/Winter Ball are other options as well.

 

If anything, would be more worried about Crochet's workload than Kopech being pushed too hard...or maybe it's more accurate to say Kopech pushing HIMSELF (because of his basic personality) too hard and too fast to get back to where he was and make up for lost time, especially watching his teammates go to the post-season last year and sitting it out on the sidelines.

Edited by caulfield12

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29 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I think you'd find quite a few comps to what you're asking of Kopech in the TB Rays bullpens from 2017-2020 (extrapolated for short season.)

Their starters only go 3.5 to 4ish innings.

Or the Angels with their 6 man rotation to protect Ohtani.

Of course, they can extend him in blowouts that go either way as the mop up man just to get the innings in as well.

AFL/Winter Ball are other options as well.

 

If anything, would be more worried about Crochet's workload than Kopech being pushed too hard...or maybe it's more accurate to say Kopech pushing HIMSELF (because of his basic personality) too hard and too fast to get back to where he was and make up for lost time, especially watching his teammates go to the post-season last year and sitting it out on the sidelines.

I agree. Crochet will have a lower innings goal than Kopech. He just hasn't thrown very many innings in his life. I would guess he is on a 2 year plan to becoming a full time starter.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I agree. Crochet will have a lower innings goal than Kopech. He just hasn't thrown very many innings in his life. I would guess he is on a 2 year plan to becoming a full time starter.

The problem there is he really going to be able to experiment with his secondary pitches enough in high-leverage situations?

There are a few starters out there who can get away with just two pitches, but having a third pitch he can go to 5-15% of the time is not going to be easy to develop in the bullpen.

In Katz We Trust?

 

Just looked at a couple of examples with TB in 2017 and 18.

Austin Pruitt threw 83 innings, 8 starts in 2017.  Their other relievers were 57 to 69 IP.

In 2018, Ryan Yarbrough had 147 IP on just 6 GS, Chirinos 90 IP with 7 GS.  Everyone else in the pen pretty much 40-70 IP.  The highest was Pruitt (after those two quasi-starters) at 70 IP, he closed out 11 games.

 

Edited by caulfield12

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41 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The problem there is he really going to be able to experiment with his secondary pitches enough in high-leverage situations?

There are a few starters out there who can get away with just two pitches, but having a third pitch he can go to 5-15% of the time is not going to be easy to develop in the bullpen.

In Katz We Trust?

 

Just looked at a couple of examples with TB in 2017 and 18.

Austin Pruitt threw 83 innings, 8 starts in 2017.  Their other relievers were 57 to 69 IP.

In 2018, Ryan Yarbrough had 147 IP on just 6 GS, Chirinos 90 IP with 7 GS.  Everyone else in the pen pretty much 40-70 IP.  The highest was Pruitt (after those two quasi-starters) at 70 IP, he closed out 11 games.

 

He is going to need many innings so I would think that there will be plenty of non high leverage situations in which to work on the secondaries.

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Flores claimed by Cardinals to open 40-man spot

Eloy 60-day

Fry and Engel 10-day

Vaughn (#25) and Hamilton (#0) added to 40-man

Let’s play ball!!

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On 3/31/2021 at 5:36 PM, Balta1701 said:

So whose innings is he taking? 40 inning seasons for each of Bummer and Hendricks? 

You realize a bullpen is typically going to throw close to 600 innings a year these days? 

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2 hours ago, flavum said:

Flores claimed by Cardinals to open 40-man spot

Eloy 60-day

Fry and Engel 10-day

Vaughn (#25) and Hamilton (#0) added to 40-man

Let’s play ball!!

So, essentially, we traded Flores for 2 weeks of either Lamb or Hamilton.

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Watching Royals/Rangers.  Dunning is a tandem starter for them.  Royals top 6 is scary.

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