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Madrigal.

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22 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Can the mods ban this ass hat?

No reason to call Madrigal an “ass hat”

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2 minutes ago, fathom said:

No reason to call Madrigal an “ass hat”

lol.  I get why some people don't love Madrigal's game.  Honestly.  But let's give the kid a chance.  He has the makings of a perfect complimentary piece on this roster.  IT hasn't been all that pretty to this point, but his bat to ball skills are truly elite.  And to say Mendick is a better option is pretty comical stuff.  

I guess you don't even really need to give him a chance - he's not going anywhere.  And hearing this argument over and over and over again is going to get quite old.  

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1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

lol.  I get why some people don't love Madrigal's game.  Honestly.  But let's give the kid a chance.  He has the makings of a perfect complimentary piece on this roster.  IT hasn't been all that pretty to this point, but his bat to ball skills are truly elite.  And to say Mendick is a better option is pretty comical stuff.  

I guess you don't even really need to give him a chance - he's not going anywhere.  And hearing this argument over and over and over again is going to get quite old.  

The bat is fine IMO. It’s going to be very BABIP-reliant, but it’s definitely playable as the 9th hitter.  It’s the defense that is borderline unplayable this season.  He has this year to show it can improve. If it doesn’t, I expect he’s on the trade market this offseason.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Guys....some of you defending Madrigal are also viciously attacking posters who are questioning his value...quite personally. It’s bewildering. 

A lot of you keep going back to what Madrigal is currently hitting above league average and yet citing madrigals own sample size as being too small.

Do you really think entire teams like the Yankees and Cubs and Indians are going to keep hitting .202-.205 with a .650 OPS all season? 80% of the teams are currently hitting below .250 as a team to start the season. 

I’ll reiterate my central point again because my central point is irrelevant of sample size. 

If he is truly is the *zero* home run MLB player he has been thus far, which is really my worst fear... I think he will have to hit doubles and triples at a lead leading clip, and have essentially have the highest average and obp in baseball to be able to generate enough offensive firepower to be better than a typical 15 home run hitting .250/.740 second baseman. He may be able to do that, but that is a huge ask. 

 

You do have a point. But again, for me the thing is WE DON'T KNOW YET. Projections and what actually ends up happening often do tend to be different. We need to give him a better time frame than less than half a damn season to make a judgment.

And more than that, posts with pictures of midgets from Wizard of Oz? People need to grow up and deserved to be called out for such childish behavior. That's what people like me are more agitated by.

 

8 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think you and everyone else knows who I am talking about.  

In a thread with multiple people cussing and getting out of hand? Not really. The very person you quoted (who's an admin) has regularly engaged in vitriolic behavior so no, the line definitely needs to be established and in no way is who you're suggesting that obvious in light of this.

Edited by RagahRagah
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1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:
Old Prospector: How do you feel about Nick Madrigal’s long-term potential his unusual skill set? What about Luis Arraez?
 
Kevin Goldstein: I really struggle with Madrigal and think he’s quite overrated by most prospect folks. He’s hitting .300 right now (which is real) and his OPS is just 737. Feels like he  need to hit .330 to get to .800 and he’s just such an empty average hitter. Unique player, but not as valuable as some might think.

The OPS statistic is a good one, but not perfect by any means, and people who criticize Madrigal rely too heavily on it as the end-all-be-all for measuring a player's baseball value.

There was an at bat the other night that perfectly captured the chasm between Madrigal's actual value and OPS as a statistic.  Madrigal was up and Robert was at third with one out.  Madrigal fouled off some tough pitches with 2 strikes that most hitters would have struck out on, then hit an RBI groundout.  Madrigal's skillset produced a concrete positive result that won't be reflected in his OPS.

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1 minute ago, fathom said:

The bat is fine IMO. It’s going to be very BABIP-reliant, but it’s definitely playable as the 9th hitter.  It’s the defense that is borderline unplayable this season.  He has this year to show it can improve. If it doesn’t, I expect he’s on the trade market this offseason.

I think his defense has looked better the last couple weeks.  But yeah, I agree - the defense has been really bad so far.  But that certainly isn't his pedigree it just seemed to like he was pressing out there.  

The throw the other day is caught by 999/1000 1st basemen.  I don't really blame that error on Madrigal.  Was not a good throw, but you and I catch that ball 99/100 times.  That was on Yermin.  

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48 minutes ago, 2Deep said:

WTF is wrong with some of you.  The kid has played approximately 45 games in the MLB.  He is a young player who is learning and growing...........he has made some dumb plays but that is expected for any rookie.  If in 2 years Nick is not a better player then he is now then b**** away.  Give the kid a chance........some of you are just dumbass trolls who for some reason think it's funny to pick on his height.

While you clowns sit at home typing on a message board this kid in playing in the MLB.

I personally think he compliments this young team very well.  You need some that is going to make contact and put the ball in play.  Have you seen what has happened on the North side with that offense over the year?  Everybody on that team strikes out way to much.  If you don't have guys that are going to put the ball in play then you are going to be a team that scores 16 on day and scores 1 or 2 a game for the rets of the week.

 

Bravo!  🙌 

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4 minutes ago, fathom said:

The bat is fine IMO. It’s going to be very BABIP-reliant, but it’s definitely playable as the 9th hitter.  It’s the defense that is borderline unplayable this season.  He has this year to show it can improve. If it doesn’t, I expect he’s on the trade market this offseason.

I'm the opposite.  His defense will be fine.  No where near "elite" like the dopes LOVED to throw around but fine.  His baserunning will also be fine but again no where near "elite." He's not a base stealer or a difference maker but he'll figure that out and stop running into stupid outs.  The bat is a major concern because he's such a low impact hitter.  He does zero damage and even hitting 9th a team can't afford to play a hitter who offers next to zero impact while the rest of his game is just average. He may get there different and people seem to love that but the end result is a boarderline league average second baseman.    

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12 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think his defense has looked better the last couple weeks.  But yeah, I agree - the defense has been really bad so far.  But that certainly isn't his pedigree it just seemed to like he was pressing out there.  

The throw the other day is caught by 999/1000 1st basemen.  I don't really blame that error on Madrigal.  Was not a good throw, but you and I catch that ball 99/100 times.  That was on Yermin.  

He’s been struggling with throws all year. Abreu has saved him a few times. He’s aiming the ball right now likely due to lack of confidence.

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2 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I'm the opposite.  His defense will be fine.  No where near "elite" like the dopes LOVED to throw around but fine.  His baserunning will also be fine but again no where near "elite." He's not a base stealer or a difference maker but he'll figure that out and stop running into stupid outs.  The bat is a major concern because he's such a low impact hitter.  He does zero damage and even hitting 9th a team can't afford to play a hitter who offers next to zero impact while the rest of his game is just average. He may get there different and people seem to love that but the end result is a boarderline league average second baseman.    

One thing that is glaring right now is fWAR hates him.  

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Also they need to be doing hit and runs every time he’s up with someone on base. I love having the speed of Robert in front of him.

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2 minutes ago, fathom said:

One thing that is glaring right now is fWAR hates him.  

Of course not. He doesn't do anything to impact a game.  He's not a difference maker.  He doesn't hit for extra bases, he doesn't take extra bases and he doesn't take away hits. He's just a guy.  

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Madrigal was advertised as a speedy 30+ SB threat who would hit well over .300, play gold glove defense, and was a heads-up player who would do all the little things correctly which helps a team win games but doesn't show up on any of the stat sheets.

It turns out his speed is grossly overrated, he's a threat on the basepaths only to his own team because his baserunning is so bad, because of his lack of arm strength and range comparatively he will never win a gold glove with his defense and due to his lack of power he will never win a gold glove with his bat either, and as for the little things, the guy is one of the worst players on the team.

Yes the contact is great but he's not hitting 9th to drive in runs.  He's very unlikely to ever be a huge obp guy either because pitchers will put the ball in the zone to him and make him swing the bat to get on.  There is no power to respect and he's really not the kind of bunt for basehit threat someone like him should be either.

I hope the Sox make a change here.  They can win with him because the rest of the core is so good but let's not pretend he's any part of the core the way most of these other players are.

Also here's a picture of him on vacation:

image.png

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12 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

Madrigal was advertised as a speedy 30+ SB threat who would hit well over .300, play gold glove defense, and was a heads-up player who would do all the little things correctly which helps a team win games but doesn't show up on any of the stat sheets.

It turns out his speed is grossly overrated, he's a threat on the basepaths only to his own team because his baserunning is so bad, because of his lack of arm strength and range comparatively he will never win a gold glove with his defense and due to his lack of power he will never win a gold glove with his bat either, and as for the little things, the guy is one of the worst players on the team.

Yes the contact is great but he's not hitting 9th to drive in runs.  He's very unlikely to ever be a huge obp guy either because pitchers will put the ball in the zone to him and make him swing the bat to get on.  There is no power to respect and he's really not the kind of bunt for basehit threat someone like him should be either.

I hope the Sox make a change here.  They can win with him because the rest of the core is so good but let's not pretend he's any part of the core the way most of these other players are.

Also here's a picture of him on vacation:

image.png

Now your just being silly. 

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I'm hardly any taller than Nick but I'm not in a profession where height and size and the power that usually comes with that matters.  So it's fair to point out his weakness when it comes to athletic performance imo.  Some of the other height stuff is just good natured ribbing and maybe the other bit is mean spirited.  I really haven't seen too much of the latter here.

Nick certainly needs to get on a weight training program and transform his body over the next couple years.  He's never going to be Aaron Judge, but he can certainly be Altuve size.  If it takes some vitamins to get there, well fucking get them.  Most other guys are.

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Some of you need to join the WS scouting program.  People who can spot a player's floor and ceiling after 45 games would be invaluable.

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5 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Some of you need to join the WS scouting program.  People who can spot a player's floor and ceiling after 45 games would be invaluable.

Seems like you have spotted a very high ceiling.  Sample size only applies when the "haters" are involved. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Some of you need to join the WS scouting program.  People who can spot a player's floor and ceiling after 45 games would be invaluable.

You've done the same thing endlessly projecting Madrigal as the 2nd coming of Nellie Fox.  That's what makes it fun you know, the debate.  Jesus Christ enjoy the process of talking with Sox fans on a message board!

Edited by chitownsportsfan
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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I'm hardly any taller than Nick but I'm not in a profession where height and size and the power that usually comes with that matters.  So it's fair to point out his weakness when it comes to athletic performance imo.  Some of the other height stuff is just good natured ribbing and maybe the other bit is mean spirited.  I really haven't seen too much of the latter here.

Nick certainly needs to get on a weight training program and transform his body over the next couple years.  He's never going to be Aaron Judge, but he can certainly be Altuve size.  If it takes some vitamins to get there, well fucking get them.  Most other guys are.

I gotta say, for a guy who is pretty sensitive and doesn't like when people "rib" him for fun on an internet forum, you sure are OK and understanding with personal jabs at a guys height that clearly aren't "good natured ribbing." It couldn't possibly be because you don't like Madrigal either so it's OK to make weird comments on his stature and post oompa loomp and gnome images, could it?

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I gotta say, for a guy who is pretty sensitive and doesn't like when people "rib" him for fun on an internet forum, you sure are OK and understanding with personal jabs at a guys height that clearly aren't "good natured ribbing." It couldn't possibly be because you don't like Madrigal either so it's OK to make weird comments on his stature and post oompa loomp and gnome images, could it?

Ray I'm going to ask you again to never, ever respond to me.  99.9% of your posts in reply to me are ad hominem attacks in which you insert absurd cut outs of my post history and put words into my mouth.

 I have you on ignore but sometimes it glitches and shows when you respond to me.  Just stop, just put me on ignore and we'll never have to cross paths.  Thank you.  And for the record, go through my posts and you will find the vast majority made since this season started, the vast majority, have no personal attacks and debate the substance of arguments about players and the Sox.  I'm actively working on bettering myself, but when you respond to me with your absurdities it doesn't make it easy not to just rip the fuck out of you.  So please, don't give me the temptation.

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16 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

You've done the same thing endlessly projecting Madrigal as the 2nd coming of Nellie Fox.  That's what makes it fun you know, the debate.  Jesus Christ enjoy the process of talking with Sox fans on a message board!

Yep...I have seen firsthand what Nellie Fox meant to a championship club.  I don't know if Nicky can win the MVP as Fox did... but it will be fun to watch him try.

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I do believe this is what happens when our team doesn’t play for a few days.

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26 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

You've done the same thing endlessly projecting Madrigal as the 2nd coming of Nellie Fox.  That's what makes it fun you know, the debate.  Jesus Christ enjoy the process of talking with Sox fans on a message board!

To be clear...I am confident that Madrigal has the floor of a reliable everyday 2nd baseman.  My hope is for him to challenge Fox as a WS legend.

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6 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

This thread is fun and healthy

As someone who is new to SoxTalk, I find this thread fascinating. The discussion on Madirgal certainly, but also for so so many more reasons. 

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