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Greydawgfan1

Madrigal.

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This is just silly, especially if anyone remembers Nick's only strikeout this year: the third strike was waaaaay outside the strikezone

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The haters have piped down.  

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Madrigal is having a better start to his career than Pedroia or Altuve

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2 hours ago, reiks12 said:

Madrigal is having a better start to his career than Pedroia or Altuve

By what measure?

Pedroia had a similar first season to what Nick had last year and then in his first full year had 3.7 WAR.

Altuve had double the plate appearances in his first season but in his first full season he was worth 1.9 WAR.

Nick isn't on pace to do either and certainly isn't on pace to be "better" than that. 

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He might, if he starts going to Altuves Pharmacist.

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

By what measure?

Pedroia had a similar first season to what Nick had last year and then in his first full year had 3.7 WAR.

Altuve had double the plate appearances in his first season but in his first full season he was worth 1.9 WAR.

Nick isn't on pace to do either and certainly isn't on pace to be "better" than that. 

On par with Pedroias first year? A 745 OPS is far greater than a 565 OPS.. Altuves was in the 600s in his first 200 abs. 

In his first season Pedroias WAR was -0.8. You conveniently left that part out. 

Altuves WAR was .6 in his first season.

You are making my point, we dont know what Madrigal will turn into. What i know is he is doing better than what Pedroia or Altuve did.

Edited by reiks12
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3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

The haters have piped down.  

Well yeah that tends to happen when you stop making hate-able mistakes every game.

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25 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

On par with Pedroias first year? A 745 OPS is far greater than a 565 OPS.. Altuves was in the 600s in his first 200 abs. 

In his first season Pedroias WAR was -0.8. You conveniently left that part out. 

Altuves WAR was .6 in his first season.

You are making my point, we dont know what Madrigal will turn into. What i know is he is doing better than what Pedroia or Altuve did.

This is completely wrong.  I didn't cherry pick anything.  You in-turn are.  

If you compare their first 150 plate appearances they are very, very similar (WAR).  And Nick has DEFINITELY not been "better" as you stated.

If you are taking their first 600 plate appearances and comparing that to what Nick is on pace for, they are significantly, and I mean significantly "better". 

---

And I feel like I need this disclaimer every so often:  No one doubts that Nick is going to hit above .300, be fun to watch and root for.  The concern is that the average fan that defends him online seems to say things like "If he hits over .300 and plays solid defense, he will be fine".  And some people that are now known as "haters" just would like to let the mouth breathers know that this is not "fine" and will likely translate to being way below average for an everyday second basemen. 

 

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29 minutes ago, gusguyman said:

Well yeah that tends to happen when you stop making hate-able mistakes every game.

Fair.  He's played well since the shaky start though.  

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, GREEDY said:

This is completely wrong.  I didn't cherry pick anything.  You in-turn are.  

If you compare their first 150 plate appearances they are very, very similar (WAR).  And Nick has DEFINITELY not been "better" as you stated.

If you are taking their first 600 plate appearances and comparing that to what Nick is on pace for, they are significantly, and I mean significantly "better". 

 

I said in my original statement that Madrigal SO FAR has had a better start to his career than both Pedroia and Altuve (offensively). That is true looking at all 3 players on baseball reference. The only cherry I can pick is Madrigals first ~150 at bats. You are trying to compare him to MVP Pedroia and Altuve while I am simply pointing out people like you are writing him off, just like Boston and Houston fans have done for Pedroia and Altuve when they first got into the league.

Pedroia.JPG

Madrigal.JPG

Altuve.JPG

Edited by reiks12

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I just don't get the Madrigal hate.  He is the type of player that, if he were on another team, we'd like to have.  Gets on base, doesn't strike out, gets a lot of two-strike hits, and is just a pain in the ass to the opposing pitcher.  His defense has improved, and he'll continue to get better.  He's going to make mistakes, but as long as he's learning from the mistakes, he'll continue to improve.

A guy who gets on base, even with slappy singles, is valuable, especially if he's followed up by the RBI guys.  As the team gets better (hopefully), Madrigal's contributions will be more meaningful.

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21 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

I just don't get the Madrigal hate.  He is the type of player that, if he were on another team, we'd like to have.  Gets on base, doesn't strike out, gets a lot of two-strike hits, and is just a pain in the ass to the opposing pitcher.  His defense has improved, and he'll continue to get better.  He's going to make mistakes, but as long as he's learning from the mistakes, he'll continue to improve.

A guy who gets on base, even with slappy singles, is valuable, especially if he's followed up by the RBI guys.  As the team gets better (hopefully), Madrigal's contributions will be more meaningful.

Because he was he third pick in the draft and as such we need need to calibrate what that means in baseball as compared to football and basketball.

He seems to be settling down.  I think we will see the worst in him and Vaughn this year. 

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The value in nick is never going to be all the things that are measured in a statcast era. His value is turning over the lineup and getting on base for anderson and 2/3/4 batters. his value is putting the ball in play and moving over runners. his value is being on base and having a pitcher out of the stretch. about shifting the defenses opening up areas of the field that may not be otherwise. people spend their whole lives focusing on statcast, but they forget an anderson double when leury is batting 9th is just a double and when madrigal is in the game that's a run scorer. 

 

Im not worried about his defense or base running either. he'll be fine. 2B is not a worry now or for the next 5-8 years. 

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I don’t think OPS has anything to do with Madrigal’s game or contributions.  It should never be used in evaluating him or comparing him to others.  Just my .02

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28 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

I don’t think OPS has anything to do with Madrigal’s game or contributions.  It should never be used in evaluating him or comparing him to others.  Just my .02

Maybe, but IMO WAR and RC+ are definite measures that are indicative of his value vs a typical player who would replace him. 

Personally I think this will be a season long debate given Nick’s bizarre skill set. 

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32 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

I don’t think OPS has anything to do with Madrigal’s game or contributions.  It should never be used in evaluating him or comparing him to others.  Just my .02

But this thought process is what leads people to not like Nick. 

It's 2021. You drafted a hitter with the 4th overall pick in the 2018 Draft, and you're saying OPS shouldn't have anything to do with his game. That's a big problem for many, and I understand why. 

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Where Nick was drafted is somewhat irrelevant at this point, but it comes up all the time.  Its akin to what you paid for something is somewhat irrelevant once you own it -- all that matters is what it is worth now.  

We can debate until the cows come home if Madrigal was a good pick with #4.  But its pointless.  He is here, and he is the 2B.  You can not like him because he doesn't have a huge ceiling due to his skillset, but not liking him because of where he was drafted is silly.  

I still feel like Madrigal is great fit for this roster.  We have a ton of free swingers and guys who K a ton.  He adds nice balance.  I was expecting better defense and I've been hard on Nick at times for his lack of defense so far in MLB, but he's looked much better recently and still feel he's the perfect complementary piece on this roster.  

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What you guys are failing to factor in is a little thing I like to call TWTW, and this guy has plenty.

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8 minutes ago, Tony said:

But this thought process is what leads people to not like Nick. 

It's 2021. You drafted a hitter with the 4th overall pick in the 2018 Draft, and you're saying OPS shouldn't have anything to do with his game. That's a big problem for many, and I understand why. 

For sure.  But it’s just because his ceiling is so much higher than anybody else they could have picked there.   

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33 minutes ago, Hang Wiffem said:

What you guys are failing to factor in is a little thing I like to call TWTW, and this guy has plenty.

How so?

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35 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

For sure.  But it’s just because his ceiling is so much higher than anybody else they could have picked there.   

I think you mean his floor is so much higher, there were definitely higher ceiling players we could have picked. 

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, T R U said:

I think you mean his floor is so much higher, there were definitely higher ceiling players we could have picked. 

Na his floor is this weak-hitting crap defender who doesn’t really do anything well except not strikeout much.  A very likely outcome. 
 

His ceiling is a guy who hits close to .400 with OBPs easily over .400 while also never striking out.  He was drafted at 4 because he has a potentially once in a lifetime skill set of placing hits wherever he wants in a special way nobody else can.  A very possible outcome as well. 
 

Lol you think the Sox drafted him because they wanted a shitty, replaceable player at 2B guaranteed?  
 

They drafted him because there’s a realistic chance he has a skill nobody else has.  If he doesn’t convert on that skill he’s garbage.  It was a Hail Mary super ballsy pick for sure.  

Edited by Jerksticks
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, GREEDY said:

  The concern is that the average fan that defends him online seems to say things like "If he hits over .300 and plays solid defense, he will be fine".

 

Steve Stone said during today's game that Madrigal will be a good major league player for a long time.

I have not read any opinions to the contrary outside sports blogs loaded with contrarian/bitchers.  Madrigal  will be the White Sox second baseman until Sox management decides otherwise, and there is no indication of that.

Comparing players that are short in stature  with one another is not helpful. How about comparing Yogi Berra  (who was Madrigal's height) a 15 time all Star to Madrigal based only on his height?  Yogi was a multi-dimensional talent and Madrigal can be as well.  He showed some of it today on that triple with hard contact and good base running. 

 

 

 

Edited by tray
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